Author Topic: Weird computer?  (Read 11177 times)

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Offline Killer360

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Weird computer?
« on: September 12, 2007, 11:49:01 am »
Here, at school, during one of my spares I was using a computer in the library and all of a sudden it seemed as though someone took control of my mouse and started exiting windows. It was really strange. Sometimes I would completely lose control of my mouse for 30 seconds. Whoever was doing it selected all the icons on the desktop, right clicked and then stopped. It was really weird.

Can any system get "hacked" like that even in a school?  ??? Just a second ago some large lady sat down and had the same problem.... it was funny.  :D

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2007, 11:57:31 am »
VNC?

I don't think it's possible for a system to be invulnerable (unless it's like uh... unplugged, but that defeats the purpose).  There's probably always a way in; it's just a matter of finding it.

In the labs at my old high school, I used to unplug my mouse/keyboard and plug them into other peoples' computers when they weren't looking.  It sounds like the motions you're talking about are a bit too controlled for something like that, though.

Offline Killer360

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2007, 01:55:47 pm »
There was only one other girl in the area and she doesn't know jack about computers. I forgot to mention that after whoever right clicked, the computer completely froze for about 10 seconds. Yes, it was very controlled but even the IT guy was stumped... he was like "are you sure you didn't access any illegal websites!?!!!??". I'm like no??? So I have no idea what happened but it was very strange...

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2007, 01:57:13 pm »
There was only one other girl in the area and she doesn't know jack about computers. I forgot to mention that after whoever right clicked, the computer completely froze for about 10 seconds. Yes, it was very controlled but even the IT guy was stumped... he was like "are you sure you didn't access any illegal websites!?!!!??". I'm like no??? So I have no idea what happened but it was very strange...

Sounds something like VNC to me. :-\

Offline iago

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2007, 02:11:02 pm »
There was only one other girl in the area and she doesn't know jack about computers. I forgot to mention that after whoever right clicked, the computer completely froze for about 10 seconds. Yes, it was very controlled but even the IT guy was stumped... he was like "are you sure you didn't access any illegal websites!?!!!??". I'm like no??? So I have no idea what happened but it was very strange...

Sounds something like VNC to me. :-\

Yeah, for sure. Or it could be any number of backdoors (netbus, backorifice, pcanywhere, etc.)


(For those of you who don't get the joke: pcanywhere is made by Symantec (now), which is where I work. And it totally fits the definition of a backdoor. :) )

Offline Killer360

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2007, 02:38:54 pm »
There was only one other girl in the area and she doesn't know jack about computers. I forgot to mention that after whoever right clicked, the computer completely froze for about 10 seconds. Yes, it was very controlled but even the IT guy was stumped... he was like "are you sure you didn't access any illegal websites!?!!!??". I'm like no??? So I have no idea what happened but it was very strange...

Sounds something like VNC to me. :-\
VNC is? And how did it get on the computer?? You can't install anything if you're a student.

Wait... VNC is a remote desktop application, right?

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2007, 03:01:47 pm »
That doesn't mean it's impossible to install applications if you're not supposed to (and don't initially have the necessary permissions to do so).

Yes.

Offline Killer360

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2007, 05:16:34 pm »
That doesn't mean it's impossible to install applications if you're not supposed to (and don't initially have the necessary permissions to do so).

Yes.
I mean you don't have administrative permissions so it wouldn't work. You can't even access the control panel so that wouldn't work.

Offline Warrior

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2007, 05:51:08 pm »
definitely possible to install VNC on a least priviledged account
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Offline rabbit

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2007, 05:54:16 pm »
You can install VNC as a usermode server too.  And if they ARE using a backdoor or somesuch, it's probably not out of the question that they could get admin privileges.

Offline Killer360

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2007, 05:54:28 pm »
Hmm... strange.

Offline Hitmen

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2007, 06:16:56 pm »
Yeah, for sure. Or it could be any number of backdoors (netbus, backorifice, pcanywhere, etc.)


(For those of you who don't get the joke: pcanywhere is made by Symantec (now), which is where I work. And it totally fits the definition of a backdoor. :) )
My school uses some Altiris software that allows pretty much the same thing. Amusingly enough, they are also owned by Symantec.
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Offline Chavo

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2007, 08:04:21 pm »
You can put a VNC client/server on a USB drive and run it from there if you want ;)

That sort of 'vulnerability' should generally be blocked by network traffic rules.  Clearly your school's IT department is not up to par.

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2007, 08:19:19 pm »
I mean you don't have administrative permissions so it wouldn't work. You can't even access the control panel so that wouldn't work.

You totally missed what I was saying.  There are exploits classified as "privilege escalations," which is completely self explanatory.

Just because control panel isn't visible in the start menu or there's some policy stored in a registry key saying you can't get there doesn't mean that it's even difficult to do so.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 10:36:53 pm by Sidoh »

Offline Ender

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2007, 10:26:29 pm »
I mean you don't have administrative permissions so it wouldn't work. You can't even access the control panel so that wouldn't work.

There's this whole concept called "hacking" that's based on this dilemma. It came out in like the '40s.


Offline Killer360

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2007, 10:28:59 pm »
I mean you don't have administrative permissions so it wouldn't work. You can't even access the control panel so that wouldn't work.

There's this whole concept called "hacking" that's based on this dilemma. It came out in like the '40s.


No shit... it would take a really "smart" student to glitch or do anything like that and the library computers are monitored very closely.

Offline Ender

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2007, 10:32:52 pm »
No, it would take a mentally retarded 13 year old with an index card of instructions.

Offline Ender

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2007, 10:34:33 pm »
Just out of curiosity, is the computer that this happened on running Windows XP?

Offline Killer360

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2007, 10:45:42 pm »
Just out of curiosity, is the computer that this happened on running Windows XP?
Nooooooooooo...
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 12:54:04 pm by Killer360 »

Offline Joe

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2007, 12:35:29 am »
In computer class, sometimes I'd have a friend who sat in the row in front of me walk into class with a USB receiver, and I'd be wielding a wireless mouse. When the kid next to me isn't paying attention, the guy in front plugs in into the back. "Wtf" followed.

But yeah, I think it's a VNC-esque program. Interesting what they were doing though.

Network traffic rules at my old school did nothing to block VNC. I used it nearly every day when I was working with two computers at once (I did a fair deal of network-related programming towards the end of the semester, so this was often).
I'd personally do as Joe suggests

You might be right about that, Joe.


Offline Sidoh

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2007, 12:52:32 am »
Well, the rules you're talking about there are internal network traffic.  That's usually a lot different than incoming network traffic.

Offline Joe

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2007, 12:27:17 pm »
Oh, I figured whoever "hacked" his machine did so internally.
I'd personally do as Joe suggests

You might be right about that, Joe.


Offline Skywing

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2007, 12:53:09 pm »
You can put a VNC client/server on a USB drive and run it from there if you want ;)

That sort of 'vulnerability' should generally be blocked by network traffic rules.  Clearly your school's IT department is not up to par.
This is a fallacy for Internet-connected computers.  If any external network access is allowed to unspecified remote endpoints (i.e. if you can use a web browser), you'll be able to tunnel whatever you like through it.  For example, a backchannel can easily be constructed using HTTP traffic (or even DNS).  Firewall rules aren't going to stop that.  And the ability of even deep packet inspection is highly questionable too (what if you hide packet data inside compressed images, or if you run the link over SSL?).

Offline Killer360

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2007, 12:53:40 pm »
Wait, hold on... it was running Win 2K... sorry 'bout that.

I believe it was also the only one in the library that was still running 2K... I was using it 'cause that was the only one available at the time.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 12:55:50 pm by Killer360 »

Offline Chavo

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2007, 02:03:39 pm »
You can put a VNC client/server on a USB drive and run it from there if you want ;)

That sort of 'vulnerability' should generally be blocked by network traffic rules.  Clearly your school's IT department is not up to par.
This is a fallacy for Internet-connected computers.  If any external network access is allowed to unspecified remote endpoints (i.e. if you can use a web browser), you'll be able to tunnel whatever you like through it.  For example, a backchannel can easily be constructed using HTTP traffic (or even DNS).  Firewall rules aren't going to stop that.  And the ability of even deep packet inspection is highly questionable too (what if you hide packet data inside compressed images, or if you run the link over SSL?).
I wasn't referring to just firewall rules, basic Packet Inspection can easily detect tunnelled traffic, even encrypted.

Offline iago

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2007, 02:37:37 pm »
You can put a VNC client/server on a USB drive and run it from there if you want ;)

That sort of 'vulnerability' should generally be blocked by network traffic rules.  Clearly your school's IT department is not up to par.
This is a fallacy for Internet-connected computers.  If any external network access is allowed to unspecified remote endpoints (i.e. if you can use a web browser), you'll be able to tunnel whatever you like through it.  For example, a backchannel can easily be constructed using HTTP traffic (or even DNS).  Firewall rules aren't going to stop that.  And the ability of even deep packet inspection is highly questionable too (what if you hide packet data inside compressed images, or if you run the link over SSL?).
I wasn't referring to just firewall rules, basic Packet Inspection can easily detect tunnelled traffic, even encrypted.
Depends on how the data is hidden. It's especially difficult if it's, say, an SSL connection (which should always be allowed), unless the server proxies all the SSL connections, decrypting/re-encrypting them with its own key, there's no way to inspect it. There's nothing basic about detecting well tunneled traffic.

Offline Chavo

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2007, 03:18:57 pm »
LAN VNC traffic isn't going to be passing through a proxy with SSL..

Offline Skywing

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2007, 03:24:16 pm »
LAN VNC traffic isn't going to be passing through a proxy with SSL..
The argument you are presenting is fundamentally flawed, because packet inspecting firewalls require knowledge of what to look for in order to prevent "bad traffic".  If an attacker alters the way they hide their data in legitimate traffic, a firewall will be unable to detect it unless someone teaches it how to recognize the "bad traffic".  This is the same reason that antivirus software cannot magically detect "malicious code" - AVs, like packet inspecting firewalls, are based on filters of "good" or "bad" things, and these filters are not useful unless they are newer than the tunneling system in question.

And even then, it may not be feasible.  If, say, SSL traffic is allowed to any Internet host, any hope of packet inspection is hosed for that traffic and any programs that use SSL to protect themselves from said packet inspecting firewall - the firewall is going to have no way to look inside the SSL session and see what's really being exchanged.

Offline iago

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2007, 03:28:38 pm »
LAN VNC traffic isn't going to be passing through a proxy with SSL..
The argument you are presenting is fundamentally flawed, because packet inspecting firewalls require knowledge of what to look for in order to prevent "bad traffic".  If an attacker alters the way they hide their data in legitimate traffic, a firewall will be unable to detect it unless someone teaches it how to recognize the "bad traffic".  This is the same reason that antivirus software cannot magically detect "malicious code" - AVs, like packet inspecting firewalls, are based on filters of "good" or "bad" things, and these filters are not useful unless they are newer than the tunneling system in question.

And even then, it may not be feasible.  If, say, SSL traffic is allowed to any Internet host, any hope of packet inspection is hosed for that traffic and any programs that use SSL to protect themselves from said packet inspecting firewall - the firewall is going to have no way to look inside the SSL session and see what's really being exchanged.

I think the point that "Chavo" is trying to make is that this is likely an externally-sourced connection, so it would be difficult to build the tunnel in the first place. Although it is possible for the tunnel to be built from within the network (especially easy if one of the computers is a member of a botnet), it seems like a lot of trouble to go to in order to use VNC (or similar) on Killer360's computer.

It's more likely that somebody who's already on the network (back when I worked in government, multiple schools in Winnipeg (which is where Killer360 lives) were on the same network, and may not have had security devices to separate the schools' networks). I think that's more likely than somebody using an encrypted tunnel.

Another option is that the computers are thin clients, and a connection got crossed or something. :)

Offline Skywing

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2007, 03:31:37 pm »
I think the point that "Chavo" is trying to make is that this is likely an externally-sourced connection, so it would be difficult to build the tunnel in the first place. Although it is possible for the tunnel to be built from within the network (especially easy if one of the computers is a member of a botnet), it seems like a lot of trouble to go to in order to use VNC (or similar) on Killer360's computer.

It's more likely that somebody who's already on the network (back when I worked in government, multiple schools in Winnipeg (which is where Killer360 lives) were on the same network, and may not have had security devices to separate the schools' networks). I think that's more likely than somebody using an encrypted tunnel.

Another option is that the computers are thin clients, and a connection got crossed or something. :)

Perhaps I was unclear about that point.  The article I linked to and my posts were relating to the compromised host building out a connection instead of the other way around.  "Reverse link" connections like this are actually extremely common for malware nowadays, so ruling it out as "a lot of trouble" is something I would avoid doing.

Offline iago

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2007, 03:33:00 pm »
Yeah, I understand your point, and you're absolutely right about that. But I'm pretty sure that Chavo is arguing the wrong point, so I wanted to clear it up.

Offline Chavo

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2007, 03:37:44 pm »
LAN VNC traffic isn't going to be passing through a proxy with SSL..
The argument you are presenting is fundamentally flawed, because packet inspecting firewalls require knowledge of what to look for in order to prevent "bad traffic".  If an attacker alters the way they hide their data in legitimate traffic, a firewall will be unable to detect it unless someone teaches it how to recognize the "bad traffic".  This is the same reason that antivirus software cannot magically detect "malicious code" - AVs, like packet inspecting firewalls, are based on filters of "good" or "bad" things, and these filters are not useful unless they are newer than the tunneling system in question.

And even then, it may not be feasible.  If, say, SSL traffic is allowed to any Internet host, any hope of packet inspection is hosed for that traffic and any programs that use SSL to protect themselves from said packet inspecting firewall - the firewall is going to have no way to look inside the SSL session and see what's really being exchanged.
I think you might have missed the topic of this thread.  I am in no way suggesting that firewall rules and packet inspection are anywhere near flawless, easy to use, or common knowledge.  Your suggestion that my argument is flawed is based on the assumption that I am referring to all instances.

In our example, one person using a public computer on a private network (since its a Library computer, its probably safe to assume it doesn't even have anything other than a web browser).  Inspecting for 'bad' traffic can be as simple as checking to make sure everything that passes through the web ports (we can again assume that only 80, 8080, and 443 are not blocked by firewall rules) has a valid HTTP header.  Is this possible to forge? Sure.  Is it likely there exists a VNC client that forges HTTP headers right now?  Probably not.


Offline Skywing

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2007, 03:42:17 pm »
I might refer you to the Metasploit project, which incorporates (among many other things) a reverse link back channel (i.e. connect out) using HTTP GET/POST that is used to tunnel a stripped down version of VNC.

Offline Chavo

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2007, 03:57:51 pm »
I must admit I haven't read anything from metasploit in a long time.  I'm guessing you are referring to the PassiveX Payload in that PDF.  I agree that it seems like a reasonable explanation for this occurence that would probably get through even a well protected network.  It -might- still run it to problems with local policy though depending on what the vulnerability requires and how locked down the workstation he is using.

Of course, we already know the workstation couldn't be too terribly locked down if there is a less-malicious VNC server hiding somewhere, even on a USB drive.  I still think an insecure network with a simple VNC setup by someone that just discovered VNC and wanted to have some fun is more plausible than a malicious user that is familar with a particular vulnerability deciding he wanted to move a random users mouse around for kicks :)

Offline Camel

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2007, 04:16:35 pm »
Depends on how the data is hidden. It's especially difficult if it's, say, an SSL connection (which should always be allowed), unless the server proxies all the SSL connections, decrypting/re-encrypting them with its own key, there's no way to inspect it. There's nothing basic about detecting well tunneled traffic.

There are several programs available that will watch any network controller and decrypt SSL. Of course, it needs to see the entire conversation with the server to be able to decrypt it, but that task is trivial if the user can already see the traffic.

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Offline Camel

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2007, 04:22:26 pm »
In our example, one person using a public computer on a private network (since its a Library computer, its probably safe to assume it doesn't even have anything other than a web browser).  Inspecting for 'bad' traffic can be as simple as checking to make sure everything that passes through the web ports (we can again assume that only 80, 8080, and 443 are not blocked by firewall rules) has a valid HTTP header.  Is this possible to forge? Sure.  Is it likely there exists a VNC client that forges HTTP headers right now?  Probably not.

Actually, one of the goals of more than one VNC project is to tunnel through HTTP. I don't remember which one, possibly TightVNC, but there definitely exists one that has a mode which uses entirely HTTP PUSH/PULL to communicate between client and server. It even provides a web client to use it through a browser.

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Offline iago

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2007, 09:36:16 pm »
Depends on how the data is hidden. It's especially difficult if it's, say, an SSL connection (which should always be allowed), unless the server proxies all the SSL connections, decrypting/re-encrypting them with its own key, there's no way to inspect it. There's nothing basic about detecting well tunneled traffic.

There are several programs available that will watch any network controller and decrypt SSL. Of course, it needs to see the entire conversation with the server to be able to decrypt it, but that task is trivial if the user can already see the traffic.

Not true. The only way it could be done is by proxying the connection. In that case, the client would connect to the proxy, the proxy would decrypt/re-encrypt the traffic, then the proxy would establish its own SSL link to the remote server. You can't capture traffic simply by analyzing the SSL traffic, that would totally defeat the purpose.

Offline iago

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2007, 09:37:21 pm »
In our example, one person using a public computer on a private network (since its a Library computer, its probably safe to assume it doesn't even have anything other than a web browser).  Inspecting for 'bad' traffic can be as simple as checking to make sure everything that passes through the web ports (we can again assume that only 80, 8080, and 443 are not blocked by firewall rules) has a valid HTTP header.  Is this possible to forge? Sure.  Is it likely there exists a VNC client that forges HTTP headers right now?  Probably not.

Actually, one of the goals of more than one VNC project is to tunnel through HTTP. I don't remember which one, possibly TightVNC, but there definitely exists one that has a mode which uses entirely HTTP PUSH/PULL to communicate between client and server. It even provides a web client to use it through a browser.

I am reasonably sure that the Web client is simply a Java applet that implements the VNC protocol in the standard way. As such, it isn't a Web tunnel, it's just a portable app.

Offline Skywing

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2007, 10:22:36 pm »
There are several programs available that will watch any network controller and decrypt SSL. Of course, it needs to see the entire conversation with the server to be able to decrypt it, but that task is trivial if the user can already see the traffic.

This is doable if one has access to install a custom root certificate on a computer and then is able to generate certificates with any CN on the fly and substitute them in for SSL conversations.  This can be at the very least detected by checking the issuing CA for certificates application-side (and is only a problem if the box one is on is already controlled by the adversary, although this may be considered an acceptable case if the box is a company box and the device logging SSL traffic is also a company box that is there explicitly to do that).

However, it is still possible to effectively hide information by other means (such as by incorporating data in images or other legitimate binary content that tends to be very difficult to automatically make a "good" or "bad" determination).

Offline Camel

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2007, 06:24:23 pm »
Not true. The only way it could be done is by proxying the connection. In that case, the client would connect to the proxy, the proxy would decrypt/re-encrypt the traffic, then the proxy would establish its own SSL link to the remote server. You can't capture traffic simply by analyzing the SSL traffic, that would totally defeat the purpose.

It depends entirely what cipher is being used; they're not all beyond simple obfuscation. I used to have an application for windows that supported winpcap and listened for SSL traffic, decrypting the majority of the traffic. It was a very elemental, proof-of-concept program. Unfortunately, the disk I had it on died, and I can't remember what it was called.

<Camel> i said what what
<Blaze> in the butt
<Camel> you want to do it in my butt?
<Blaze> in my butt
<Camel> let's do it in the butt
<Blaze> Okay!

Offline iago

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2007, 10:11:35 pm »
Not true. The only way it could be done is by proxying the connection. In that case, the client would connect to the proxy, the proxy would decrypt/re-encrypt the traffic, then the proxy would establish its own SSL link to the remote server. You can't capture traffic simply by analyzing the SSL traffic, that would totally defeat the purpose.

It depends entirely what cipher is being used; they're not all beyond simple obfuscation. I used to have an application for windows that supported winpcap and listened for SSL traffic, decrypting the majority of the traffic. It was a very elemental, proof-of-concept program. Unfortunately, the disk I had it on died, and I can't remember what it was called.

If it was on the local machine, then it's possible that the program either snarfed the client's key locally or grabbed the data before it was encrypted. It all it had was the packets going back and forth, there's no way (excepting what I said earlier) that it could be done. Why would anybody use SSL if it could be decrypted?

Offline Camel

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2007, 03:29:31 am »
I've tested it on wireless networks, and it works just fine. There is no such thing as a cipher that is impossible to reverse without the private keys, and you'd be surprised at how many servers don't support some of the stronger ciphers. Even so, there are some hardcore cypher punks out there that claim to be able to break some of the strongest ciphers. There are numerous unverified accounts of RC4 being rendered useless.

I actually watched someone log in to paypal in a starbucks once, and was able to pick out their password - they were using some crappy browser I've never heard of. I wrote his password on a piece of paper, and 'getfirefox.com' under it, and handed it to him. Priceless.

In any event, the purpose of obfuscating data is to increase the amount of time it would take a determine hacker to decode the data. No matter how you look at it, any data encoded with a finitely complex encryption algorithm can be decoded in a finite amount of time with any turing machine. If you make the amount of work so great that it isn't worth the hackers time to decode it, then you are safe.

While the client does gain great advantage by using an encoding that utilizes public/private keys, since knowing the algorithm isn't all that's required to efficiently solve the puzzle, that doesn't mean the data is completely safe.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 03:39:53 am by Camel »

<Camel> i said what what
<Blaze> in the butt
<Camel> you want to do it in my butt?
<Blaze> in my butt
<Camel> let's do it in the butt
<Blaze> Okay!

Offline iago

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2007, 10:08:30 am »
Yes, the key is that you have to know the public and private keys. I'm guessing you hacked into the remote server to recover Paypal's key? Or do you have some exploit for the SSL protocol that nobody knows about? Because, if so, you should be watching your back. You never know who might try to kill you (TLAs come to mind). It's also funny how you transition from reversing with private keys to supporting strong ciphers in one sentence -- that seems to suggest that those are somehow related? The cipher used is barely related to the private key, and I'm pretty sure that you can't recover the private key, even if the cipher is very weak.

And yes, RC4 has been provably broken. I seem to recall that distributed.net recovered an RC4 key from an encrypted sentence in under 24 hours. So it's not just unverified accounts.

Or were you using an ARP or DNS poisoner? Because that's the type of program that I mentioned earlier, where you can proxy connections and decrypt/re-encrypt the data. This is well known and can't really be prevented. I also don't see how getting Firefox can prevent your unknown mystery exploit program.

It should also be noted that encryption is different from obfuscation. I won't go into details, but the words aren't interchangeable. Neither are encryption and encoding. If you're going to argue about encryption, it's necessary to understand the distinction between those three words.

In any case, you are correct that, given an infinite amount of time or processing power, any encryption algorithm can be broken. However, SSL is the Internet standard, and, as I said earlier, if you can break it, I have some people here who are very interested in keeping you quiet.

Offline Camel

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2007, 12:45:46 pm »
It should also be noted that encryption is different from obfuscation. I won't go into details, but the words aren't interchangeable. Neither are encryption and encoding. If you're going to argue about encryption, it's necessary to understand the distinction between those three words.

In any case, you are correct that, given an infinite amount of time or processing power, any encryption algorithm can be broken. However, SSL is the Internet standard, and, as I said earlier, if you can break it, I have some people here who are very interested in keeping you quiet.

I wasn't confusing the words; I was implying that encryption is a form of obfuscation. Also, I said finite, not infinite - every form of obfuscation can be broken in a finite amount of time with a finite amount of computing power. Saying that something can be done with an infinite amount of computing power is equivalent to saying "there may or may not be any known way to do the task."

That said, the program I'm referring to does only work on the weaker ciphers, and you're wrong to say/imply/think that every cipher supported by SSL employs a private key beyond the handshake - I don't know if that's still the case with TLS. The browser this guy was using only supported a weak cipher, and that's why the program could recover the data.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 12:49:34 pm by Camel »

<Camel> i said what what
<Blaze> in the butt
<Camel> you want to do it in my butt?
<Blaze> in my butt
<Camel> let's do it in the butt
<Blaze> Okay!

Offline Skywing

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2007, 01:21:12 pm »
Any TLS implementation in use out there today should not be permitting the use of weak ciphers.  "Downgrade" attacks like this are not usable against correctly done implementations.

Offline Killer360

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Re: Weird computer?
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2007, 03:06:48 pm »
Locked because I've already heard the possible reasons as to why this happened.