Author Topic: Leopard shipped bugged  (Read 9428 times)

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Offline Blaze

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Leopard shipped bugged
« on: December 02, 2007, 08:53:53 pm »
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/11/28/dont-give-up-on-leopard-despite-the-bugs/index.xml?ex=1354078800&single=1&en=89b7c9e3df456986&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Quote
Short story is a glitch in Leopard makes users unable to log in to their computers under some circumstances - like when there's more than one user account on it.
And like a fool I believed myself, and thought I was somebody else...

Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2007, 11:59:56 pm »
Every OS has bugs. News at 11?

Offline Warrior

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2007, 12:24:03 am »
mandatory apple flame and windows praise coming soon
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Offline Blaze

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2007, 06:18:39 pm »
Every OS has bugs. News at 11?

Not being able to log in if you have more then one user is pretty serious.  :P
And like a fool I believed myself, and thought I was somebody else...

Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2007, 10:21:55 pm »
Every OS has bugs. News at 11?

Not being able to log in if you have more then one user is pretty serious.  :P

I didn't actually read the details, does that happen in every case? I assumed it was yet another overblown headline for a minor 1/100000 bug (like that "Apple erases your harddrive!" one from a couple months back..)

Offline Blaze

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2007, 10:39:33 pm »
Every OS has bugs. News at 11?

Not being able to log in if you have more then one user is pretty serious.  :P

I didn't actually read the details, does that happen in every case? I assumed it was yet another overblown headline for a minor 1/100000 bug (like that "Apple erases your harddrive!" one from a couple months back..)

I don't know, but I do know it happens to a lot of people, if not all.  :P
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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2007, 01:18:52 pm »
Every OS has bugs. News at 11?
If this had been Windows you would be like, "ZOMG WINDOWS DIDN'T ALLOW YOU TO OPEN HELP AND SUPPORT SWITCH TO LINUX NOW AND DEFEAT TEH EVIL C0RPORATE EMPIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!11!eleven!"
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Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2007, 01:20:19 pm »
Every OS has bugs. News at 11?
If this had been Windows you would be like, "ZOMG WINDOWS DIDN'T ALLOW YOU TO OPEN HELP AND SUPPORT SWITCH TO LINUX NOW AND DEFEAT TEH EVIL C0RPORATE EMPIRE!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!11!eleven!"
As far as corporations go, I don't like Apple any more than Microsoft. They're both evil.

Offline Warrior

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2007, 02:56:30 pm »
All corporations are evil. Google is evil, Microsoft is evil, Apple is evil.

I blame it on the cutthroat market and the strive to maintain dominance.
Google for search, Apple for iPods, and Microsoft for Windows. They're all in the same position.

Perhaps Microsoft more so since they're a convicted monopolist, but nowadays that's faded substantially and they're almost directly comparable.
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Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2007, 02:58:37 pm »
You missed one word: this whole problem is based on competition. Without competition, the world would be a better place.

This post even comes with recommended reading!

Offline Warrior

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2007, 03:06:30 pm »
You missed one word: this whole problem is based on competition. Without competition, the world would be a better place.

This post even comes with recommended reading!

I don't think that's true though, I think competition is essential for innovation. For example, Apple counters Microsoft's monopoly on the Desktop with Leopard and pushes the envelope at times for Desktop computing.
Microsoft does the same with the Zune and the iPod.

So for every seemingly dominated market, there is always an underdog who will keep the bigger competitor in check somewhat.
One must ask oneself: "do I will trolling to become a universal law?" And then when one realizes "yes, I do will it to be such," one feels completely justified.
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Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2007, 03:13:41 pm »
Competition will exist as long as limited resources exist.  Species struggle for survival.  It's a zero-sum game.
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Offline Chavo

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2007, 03:40:27 pm »
You missed one word: this whole problem is based on competition. Without competition, the world would be a better place.
Obviously we should ditch capitalism's for communism then!  A lot of things look good on paper...

Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2007, 07:16:57 pm »
Competition will exist as long as limited resources exist.  Species struggle for survival.  It's a zero-sum game.
It's totally not a zero sum, there's more than enough of everything to go around.  That's exactly what that book is about. :)

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2007, 08:08:08 pm »
Without competition there would be no advancements.

Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2007, 08:13:41 pm »
Without competition there would be no advancements.
Seriously? Because I write software, paint miniatures, and do a lot of other things without any competition. Without competition, you can promote more widespread teamwork.

The problem is the greedy people who want it all to themselves, whether it's money or credit or whatever. But that's such a primitive way of thinking that we really need to advance beyond that kind of thing.

Again, read the book I recommended if you're interested in understanding the argument.

Offline Warrior

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2007, 08:24:21 pm »
Without competition there would be no advancements.
Seriously? Because I write software, paint miniatures, and do a lot of other things without any competition. Without competition, you can promote more widespread teamwork.

The problem is the greedy people who want it all to themselves, whether it's money or credit or whatever. But that's such a primitive way of thinking that we really need to advance beyond that kind of thing.

Again, read the book I recommended if you're interested in understanding the argument.

Competition is not the problem, it's people that are the problem. If any entity achieves a 100% domination of a market, innovation will stagnate. There is no incentive to keep producing products, the people would be locked into the said product so they cannot even argue with their dollar.

With competition, the people are given backing by their money and companies are pressured to compete for a slice of the pie. It can periodically go wrong when a company sees unchecked success, but normally it works in the way detailed above.

I think the bigger issue is greed within the companies, so perhaps that is what could use a revision. Competition, that is fair competition -- is very good.
One must ask oneself: "do I will trolling to become a universal law?" And then when one realizes "yes, I do will it to be such," one feels completely justified.
-- from Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Trolling

Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2007, 08:26:45 pm »
Competition is not the problem, it's people that are the problem. If any entity achieves a 100% domination of a market, innovation will stagnate. There is no incentive to keep producing products, the people would be locked into the said product so they cannot even argue with their dollar.

With competition, the people are given backing by their money and companies are pressured to compete for a slice of the pie. It can periodically go wrong when a company sees unchecked success, but normally it works in the way detailed above.

I think the bigger issue is greed within the companies, so perhaps that is what could use a revision. Competition, that is fair competition -- is very good.
If money is the only reason for innovation, then you're right. But I disagree with that, I don't think it works at all. Any system where companies are rewarded for harming people has problems.

I just disagree with the whole capitalist theory. I don't think it's working very well, and I don't think it can ever work well. People need to get together and think of a better way to do it.

Offline rabbit

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2007, 09:53:37 am »
You missed one word: this whole problem is based on competition. Without competition, the world would be a better place.
Obviously we should ditch capitalism's for communism then!  A lot of things look good on paper...
Right now the US is more Monarchial/Imperialist with a lot of traits of a Totalitarian system.  Communism is totally on the opposite end of the spectrum, off with Canada Nazis Socialists.

Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2007, 10:09:35 am »
Nazis weren't socialists, and Canadians are nowhere near socialists.

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2007, 10:21:42 am »
Nazi is the German shortening for National Socialist (Nationalsozialismus), so they totally were.

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2007, 10:22:49 am »
Yeah, in the same way that conservatives are conservative and democrats are democratic. :P

Offline Camel

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2007, 12:05:12 am »
You missed one word: this whole problem is based on competition. Without competition, the world would be a better place.
Obviously we should ditch capitalism's for communism then!  A lot of things look good on paper...

What are you talking about? Communism is great!


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Offline AntiVirus

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2007, 01:23:45 am »
Competition is not the problem, it's people that are the problem. If any entity achieves a 100% domination of a market, innovation will stagnate. There is no incentive to keep producing products, the people would be locked into the said product so they cannot even argue with their dollar.

With competition, the people are given backing by their money and companies are pressured to compete for a slice of the pie. It can periodically go wrong when a company sees unchecked success, but normally it works in the way detailed above.

I think the bigger issue is greed within the companies, so perhaps that is what could use a revision. Competition, that is fair competition -- is very good.
If money is the only reason for innovation, then you're right. But I disagree with that, I don't think it works at all.
I don't agree with you there iago.  There might be some innovation in the world, but it would not be able to compare to the fast pace innovation going on today.  There would be no incentive to innovate as long as what they have allows them to get by.
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Offline Camel

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2007, 04:15:30 am »
AntiVirus obviously never watched Star Trek.

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Offline AntiVirus

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2007, 10:32:47 am »
AntiVirus obviously never watched Star Trek.
Lol. I did, but not religiously.
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Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2007, 12:01:28 pm »
I don't agree with you there iago.  There might be some innovation in the world, but it would not be able to compare to the fast pace innovation going on today.  There would be no incentive to innovate as long as what they have allows them to get by.
The innovation going on today? Do you mean the research being done by universities, or the race to make the cheapest products? Because research done by universities isn't financially motivated (in the sense that, if financial motivation were to disappear, they would still be doing it), and the race to make cheapest products isn't something I like.

Or by "innovation" you might mean marketing. Every company wants their product to seem like the best, so they make small changes, advertise it as something groundbreaking, and people are left with the impression that the new product is better than the old one.

Offline zorm

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2007, 01:53:20 pm »
The innovation going on today? Do you mean the research being done by universities, or the race to make the cheapest products? Because research done by universities isn't financially motivated (in the sense that, if financial motivation were to disappear, they would still be doing it), and the race to make cheapest products isn't something I like.

Or by "innovation" you might mean marketing. Every company wants their product to seem like the best, so they make small changes, advertise it as something groundbreaking, and people are left with the impression that the new product is better than the old one.


Why don't you like the race to make the cheapest products? I guess you're willing to spend $5,000 to buy a computer with a 300mb harddrive, 4mb of memory and a 16Mhz processor?

The computer market is a really nice example of the fact that this works.

What happens when you reach the point that prices can't be lowered anymore? You get a Coke vs. Pepsi situation and perfect competition. Everyone wins.

Maybe your Canadian schools are special but from my experiences and what I've read about the experiences of others, schooling will generally show you why "teamwork" doesn't work. One person will end up doing 90% of the work while everyone else reaps the rewards.

This is why capitalism works and so many people like it, when one person does 90% of the work they get 90% of the rewards. It also doesn't prevent teamwork, so instead of forcing people to play nice and getting crap as output you get people who want to work together and awesome outputs.
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Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2007, 04:47:59 pm »
I should point out first that I'm talking about an ideal world, people in the current world have to mature a lot before it happens. But competition isn't helping us get to a mature state, it's only forcing us to play on their levels.

This is why capitalism works and so many people like it, when one person does 90% of the work they get 90% of the rewards. It also doesn't prevent teamwork, so instead of forcing people to play nice and getting crap as output you get people who want to work together and awesome outputs.

Does it really work like that there? Because around here, as you go further up the management chain, people make more money and do less work. The hardest workers I know definitely can't afford to go on vacation for several weeks out of the year, but the people at the top who do very little can.

Offline Blaze

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2007, 04:50:00 pm »
I should point out first that I'm talking about an ideal world, people in the current world have to mature a lot before it happens. But competition isn't helping us get to a mature state, it's only forcing us to play on their levels.

This is why capitalism works and so many people like it, when one person does 90% of the work they get 90% of the rewards. It also doesn't prevent teamwork, so instead of forcing people to play nice and getting crap as output you get people who want to work together and awesome outputs.

Does it really work like that there? Because around here, as you go further up the management chain, people make more money and do less work. The hardest workers I know definitely can't afford to go on vacation for several weeks out of the year, but the people at the top who do very little can.


Is it the little guys that get blamed and have to quit when a company does poorly?  No, that's the high up people.  :P
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Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2007, 05:12:31 pm »
Is it the little guys that get blamed and have to quit when a company does poorly?  No, that's the high up people.  :P
No, but they're the ones that get laid off. Trust me, it happened enough at Symantec, and it's always the people at the bottom.

Offline AntiVirus

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2007, 05:33:53 pm »
I don't agree with you there iago.  There might be some innovation in the world, but it would not be able to compare to the fast pace innovation going on today.  There would be no incentive to innovate as long as what they have allows them to get by.
The innovation going on today? Do you mean the research being done by universities, or the race to make the cheapest products? Because research done by universities isn't financially motivated (in the sense that, if financial motivation were to disappear, they would still be doing it), and the race to make cheapest products isn't something I like.

Or by "innovation" you might mean marketing. Every company wants their product to seem like the best, so they make small changes, advertise it as something groundbreaking, and people are left with the impression that the new product is better than the old one.

I am talking about how companies like Apple and Microsoft keep improving their computers and media devices in order to stay in the market and to out do the other.  Because of that we have things like the iPod where you can hold 60+ gb in something tiny.  That is the innovation I am talking about.

University research may not be driven by greed, but competition helps a lot with the development done by Universities.  Without competition there wouldn't be prestigious Universities, they would all be the same.  The Universities want the best professors they can get so they can get more students which means more money for the Universities themselves, which in turn leads to more funding for research.  In the end I still believe that competition is responsible for University developments.

In fact, I don’t believe that a degree from a University would be as required as it is today without competition.  The whole reason people go to Universities, or at least the reason the majority go to Universities is to study so you can eventually get a job you want and make enough money to live.  I don’t see how anyone in a non-competitive world would have a problem getting a job that would let them have enough money to support themselves and a family.  People are lazy, why would they want to do unnecessary work?
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Offline Hitmen

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2007, 11:34:15 pm »
Is it the little guys that get blamed and have to quit when a company does poorly?  No, that's the high up people.  :P
If by quit you mean "be relieved of duty with tens of millions of dollars in severence pay", then yeah, totally.
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Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2007, 01:15:21 am »
I am talking about how companies like Apple and Microsoft keep improving their computers and media devices in order to stay in the market and to out do the other.  Because of that we have things like the iPod where you can hold 60+ gb in something tiny.  That is the innovation I am talking about.
I'm sure that money isn't the only reason that could happen. What about somebody who realized "I have 50gb of music that I want to take with me"? Big evil corporations aren't necessary for innovation, necessity is. Remember the saying, "necessity is the mother of invention"? It's true.

University research may not be driven by greed, but competition helps a lot with the development done by Universities.  Without competition there wouldn't be prestigious Universities, they would all be the same.  The Universities want the best professors they can get so they can get more students which means more money for the Universities themselves, which in turn leads to more funding for research.  In the end I still believe that competition is responsible for University developments.
So you're suggesting that only giving rich people a good education is somehow beneficial? In Canada, all our universities are relatively equal. None are really well known as being better, and there are good professors at all of them, and good research being done at all the ones with graduate programs. They don't compete with each other, they assist each other, and people are, on average, better off that way.

In fact, I don’t believe that a degree from a University would be as required as it is today without competition.  The whole reason people go to Universities, or at least the reason the majority go to Universities is to study so you can eventually get a job you want and make enough money to live.  I don’t see how anyone in a non-competitive world would have a problem getting a job that would let them have enough money to support themselves and a family.  People are lazy, why would they want to do unnecessary work?
As I said earlier, I'm talking about an ideal world where people have matured past the greed and competitiveness that's been ingrained into us. Ideally, people would do what they enjoy doing and what they're good at to the best of their abilities to help advance themselves and the world as much as possible. It sounds like communism, but I'm thinking more like a form of democratic socialism (which is the structure that George Orwell supported).

Unfortunately, people are currently selfish and greedy. It's the necessary outcome of capitalism. People will hurt others to make more money and become more comfortable (I could provide examples, but I don't think I have to [harmful preservatives, destructive farming, unnecessary pollution, clear cutting forests, ....]). Some people are living in comfort, doing no work, and controlling the government, while many, many others are living in poverty that they can't escape (not counting the ones with addictions or mental problems that are left on the street, either, that's a whole other can of worms). If you really think about it, the vast majority if crime stems directly from this disparity.

What it comes down to is that I don't think the world is working the way it is, and I'm amazed that others are so blind to the problems. And I'm fairly confident when I say that the problems stem from greed and selfishness, both of which really go back to the inherent competition built into our world. I'm not saying that I have a solution, I haven't thought of one that I'm comfortable with yet, but I don't think the world in its current state is sustainable.

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2007, 02:46:25 pm »
I want [...] necessity is [the mother of invention].
Nobody needed to carry 50 gb.  In fact, nobody needed the wheel.  They are things we wanted because they improve the quality of life.  QoL improvements are not necessities - they're luxuries.

So you're suggesting that only giving rich people a good education is somehow beneficial? In Canada, all our universities are relatively equal. None are really well known as being better, and there are good professors at all of them, and good research being done at all the ones with graduate programs. They don't compete with each other, they assist each other, and people are, on average, better off that way.
Universities don't simply compete with one another for money.  Money is a means to an end.

Do you think that, by having everything be average, that it inhibits the people who could do better from doing so?  Probably not; those people go to American universities....  ;)

Seriously though, without things like competition across universities and jobs, I don't believe that the exceptional people could have the opportunity to truly live up to their potential.  And, if they don't, does it really benefit society?  Would it benefit society to not have people as exceptionally bright as Albert Einstein or Stephen Hawking?

There are certainly cases where competition is bad.  There was a great example in House - during a story arc, the hospital was taken over by a wealthy businessman who owned a pharmaceutical company.  It would have been bad business for the hospital to be in bed with the pharmaceutical company, specificall doing clinical trials - it might be worthwhile, or it might not, to try a new drug.  But, the patient would not have been receiving the right standard of care.

Have you ever read Harrison Bergeron?  It's a short story by Kurt Vonnegut - you can find it here.  About 5 or 6 printed pages total.  I highly recommend it.

The only way we can truly equalize everyone is to bring everyone down to the level of the least common denominator.  Is that really what would benefit society?

Your life is a great example.  The next time you apply for a job, will you list that you worked for Symantec?  Honestly, the primary motivation for me to work for a company like Microsoft or Symantec for a couple of years is that, once I've done so, I can pretty much write my own ticket.  I'll never be at a loss for a job unless I suddenly really start to suck at what I do.  The fact that you worked at Symantec differentiates you from a crowd, and makes you a more valuable commodity than the guy who just graduated from the university, even if his emphasis in school was security analysis.  Competition is an intrinsic part of who we are, because there's always something that somebody wants, and always somebody who wants to provide it.
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Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2007, 05:33:15 pm »
Nobody needed to carry 50 gb.  In fact, nobody needed the wheel.  They are things we wanted because they improve the quality of life.  QoL improvements are not necessities - they're luxuries.
It's a figure of speech. Yes, everything's a luxury. But the point was that even in a world without competition, things would get developed as people want them, and as they would benefit themselves and others. A lot like the opensource idea, but more widespread.

Universities don't simply compete with one another for money.  Money is a means to an end.

Do you think that, by having everything be average, that it inhibits the people who could do better from doing so?  Probably not; those people go to American universities....  ;)

Seriously though, without things like competition across universities and jobs, I don't believe that the exceptional people could have the opportunity to truly live up to their potential.  And, if they don't, does it really benefit society?  Would it benefit society to not have people as exceptionally bright as Albert Einstein or Stephen Hawking?

There are certainly cases where competition is bad.  There was a great example in House - during a story arc, the hospital was taken over by a wealthy businessman who owned a pharmaceutical company.  It would have been bad business for the hospital to be in bed with the pharmaceutical company, specificall doing clinical trials - it might be worthwhile, or it might not, to try a new drug.  But, the patient would not have been receiving the right standard of care.

Have you ever read Harrison Bergeron?  It's a short story by Kurt Vonnegut - you can find it here.  About 5 or 6 printed pages total.  I highly recommend it.

The only way we can truly equalize everyone is to bring everyone down to the level of the least common denominator.  Is that really what would benefit society?
I don't see how encouraging people to work together instead of fighting, and having accomplishment be its own reward would suddenly force everybody to be equal. I don't think that a lack of competition means that everybody's equal; to me, it means that people don't spend extra effort trying to do better than what others are doing, that creates feelings of hatred, resentment, depression, and so on. In any case, I most definitely do not believe in equality. I strongly believe that everybody is different and everybody has strengths and weaknesses. I don't subscribe at all to the Sesame Street belief that you can do anything if you try. Unfortunately, some people may have great skills in some field that they can't get paid well for, so the world is deprived of that skill. For example, my cousin is an amazing painter, absolutely incredible, but she isn't going to pursue it because she can't make a living off of it.

Other examples are theoretical physics and philosophy. They are both great fields to pursue, but can anybody (outside) the field name more than a couple people currently working in each of those fields? In this world, it takes somebody who doesn't care about making a mediocre salary their entire lives to work in those fields. So how many people with great potential there are we losing? I would guess a lot.

An ideal world (that I don't think is realistic right now, but I think it's a goal to work toward) is that everybody can pursue what they enjoy and what they're good at without having to worry about whether or not they'll get paid a lot to do it. A great artist should be able to do their art, and a philosopher should be able to do their philosophy. I was fortunate that my particular interest is something that pays decently.

Your life is a great example.  The next time you apply for a job, will you list that you worked for Symantec?  Honestly, the primary motivation for me to work for a company like Microsoft or Symantec for a couple of years is that, once I've done so, I can pretty much write my own ticket.  I'll never be at a loss for a job unless I suddenly really start to suck at what I do.  The fact that you worked at Symantec differentiates you from a crowd, and makes you a more valuable commodity than the guy who just graduated from the university, even if his emphasis in school was security analysis.  Competition is an intrinsic part of who we are, because there's always something that somebody wants, and always somebody who wants to provide it.
Yes, I'll list that I worked for Symantec. However, I didn't work there so I could do it. I worked there so I could learn new skills, gain experience, improve my self confidence (which is something I always lack), meet new people, and enjoy myself.

Competition is definitely an intrinsic part of our current society, but I think it's a bad part. I really don't think that competition is a good thing, I can't think of any benefits of it. When people or companies are competing, they are more likely to cheat, they are more likely to make poor or hasty decisions, and they're more likely to ruin the life of somebody who doesn't deserve it. When you remove competition, they're more likely to work together. For example, Linux, Microsoft, and Apple all have OSes with both advantages and drawbacks. If they could work together to build an OS with all the benefits, life would be better for everybody.

Another example is that there are many brilliant scientists in the world who are competing for things like prizes, rewards, money, etc., so it's in their best interest to share their findings with each other. This leads to different people doing the same research and learning the same things, which is a waste of resources. If they could work together, they could gain new insights into what they're doing and likely benefit everybody.

In school, tests and scholarships are a form of competition. So some of the students do well and are rewarded, whereas most do poorly and are told that, because they don't do as well in the same subjects as others, they aren't as good, they won't amount to anything, and so on. That's a huge hit to people's self esteem. Just because they may not be as strong at the same subjects as classmates, should they be treated poorly? I don't think so.



I realize I'm going on, but this competition thing is something I've been putting a lot of thought into lately. No, I don't know how to get rid of it, and I don't think the world would work in the way I suggest if it were suddenly removed. I think it requires the growth and maturity of people before it could work. I do, however, think it's something valuable to think about. We are totally socialized/brainwashed to believe that competition is normal and healthy, but I don't think it is.

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2007, 06:05:19 pm »
I really don't think that competition is a good thing, I can't think of any benefits of it.
I think that doesn't make competition defective; it makes you defective. :P
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Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2007, 10:54:59 pm »
I really don't think that competition is a good thing, I can't think of any benefits of it.
I think that doesn't make competition defective; it makes you defective. :P
Then name some that haven't been named yet, because I disagree (and have explained why in what I hope is a clear way) with every one that's already been posed.

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2007, 11:38:25 pm »
Just because you countered the perfectly reasonable arguments with the ones that you came up with, doesn't mean that the reasonable ones are erroneous.  It just means that your counters are defective. :P
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Offline iago

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Re: Leopard shipped bugged
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2007, 10:32:21 am »
Then go ahead and point out the defects. This is something that I've put a reasonable amount of time into thinking about, and I'm reasonably comfortable with the conclusions I've come up with.