Canada becomes one of the top 3 copyright violators in the world!

[MyndFyre]

 

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/02/13/0056249.shtml

A CBC story reports that the US-based International Intellectual Property Alliance claims Canada has joined Russia and China among the biggest violators of US copyright law. Quoting: "The group's report is the latest to urge the US government into pressuring Ottawa to reform copyright laws." As we have previously discussed here, the current Conservative government had planned to introduce a new copyright law, but dissent from the privacy commissioner and a groundswell of public protest delayed that action.

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All I can do is lol.

[iago]

Note: this is a quick response without fully understanding the situation. I reserve the right to post something more meaningful later...
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This just in: US is the biggest violator of Canadian privacy laws.

Oh wait, who cares about following other countries' laws?

[CrAz3D]

Note: this is a quick response without fully understanding the situation. I reserve the right to post something more meaningful later...
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This just in: US is the biggest violator of Canadian privacy laws.

Oh wait, who cares about following other countries' laws?

Proof?

[chuck]

US copyright laws should really only apply in the US

[CrAz3D]

US copyright laws should really only apply in the US

That's stupid.

[iago]

Note: this is a quick response without fully understanding the situation. I reserve the right to post something more meaningful later...
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This just in: US is the biggest violator of Canadian privacy laws.

Oh wait, who cares about following other countries' laws?

Proof?

Proof of what?

I just used privacy laws as an example (the government isn't legally allowed to spy on people without probable cause in Canada, nor can they take our data without permission or publicity). But that was just a quick one.

I should have said that US citizens violate Canada's gun laws. Same idea, really -- what Chuck said.  

[iago]

US copyright laws should really only apply in the US

That's stupid.

Turn in your weapons, then. They aren't allowed according to Canadian law.

We can start looking at taking away your knives under UK laws later.

[CrAz3D]

US citizens owning guns in the US doesn't directly hurt Canada.
Canadian citizens breaking US copyright laws directly hurts the US.

[iago]

When people are selling products in another country, they abide by that country's laws. In Canada, we pay a duty on every blank media we buy (CDs, harddrives, etc.) which gives us the right to copy it.

Also, I wouldn't say it's "hurting" anybody, but that's a whole other discussion

[CrAz3D]

Ok, you want a CD of ARTIST.

Either you buy the CD of ARTIST for $20 or burn it for $2 (whatever the cost of blank CDs are there), the US still loses money.




Counter-example:
US passes a law saying all oil that we can access is ours.  We move up there and start drilling, but because we aren't violating our laws it's ok.

[MyndFyre]

When people are selling products in another country, they abide by that country's laws. In Canada, we pay a duty on every blank media we buy (CDs, harddrives, etc.) which gives us the right to copy it.

Also, I wouldn't say it's "hurting" anybody, but that's a whole other discussion

This is an example: it corrects the tax loss of music for Canada, but not the artist revenue loss.

[Explicit]

The way I see it, the US is a big bully.

[MyndFyre]

The way I see it, the US is a big bully.

Welcome to the theory of realism in the study of international relations.  All we have to do to make you a convert is get you to believe that the US should CONTINUE to be a big bully.

[iago]

When people are selling products in another country, they abide by that country's laws. In Canada, we pay a duty on every blank media we buy (CDs, harddrives, etc.) which gives us the right to copy it.

Also, I wouldn't say it's "hurting" anybody, but that's a whole other discussion

This is an example: it corrects the tax loss of music for Canada, but not the artist revenue loss.

The levy we pay goes directly to the artists, so that isn't true. That's the whole point of the levy.

[CrAz3D]

So .... 18.9% of $.21 per CD = $.03969 per copied disk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#Canada

A new artist on a major or a large indie label would typically receive net proceeds of about $1.20 per CD sale, whereas a star performer might get about double that

http://www.forbes.com/media/2007/06/07/music-warner-atlantic-biz-media_cx_lh_0608indie.html


$.04 vs. $1.20-$2.40, hmm.  $.04 doesn't seem to make up for the loss in the least bit.

[Sidoh]

So .... 18.9% of $.21 per CD = $.03969 per copied disk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#Canada

A new artist on a major or a large indie label would typically receive net proceeds of about $1.20 per CD sale, whereas a star performer might get about double that

http://www.forbes.com/media/2007/06/07/music-warner-atlantic-biz-media_cx_lh_0608indie.html


$.04 vs. $1.20-$2.40, hmm.  $.04 doesn't seem to make up for the loss in the least bit.

You're forgetting to include the money from people who buy the media and use it for legitimate things.

[CrAz3D]

People that buy the real disk?  We're not talking about them.  Those people pay the $1.20/disk to the artist.

[Blaze]

How many CD-Rs in my house do not contain (pirated) music?  All of them.  How many CD-Rs do I have in my house?  Probably a couple hundred unused, a couple hundred more used for HD backups and other things.  I've probably gone through several hundreds over the years.  But wait!  $ 0.04 of each cd gave them money!  So.. they didn't lose ANYTHING and I still paid them!?  Oh my!  That would surely.. I don't know... make up for some sort of loss that some other caused them?

Edit:  Damn you, Sidoh! 

[Sidoh]

People that buy the real disk?  We're not talking about them.  Those people pay the $1.20/disk to the artist.

No, the people who buy CD-Rs and use them, for example, to back up their data.  They still pay the levy for that disk.

[CrAz3D]

For every 40 CDs bought, one album is paid for (assuming it's a new artist on a major label).

Who really uses CDs anymore, though?  Most blank media is the computer's hard drive or some mp3 player. 

[Sidoh]

For every 40 CDs bought, one album is paid for (assuming it's a new artist on a major label).

Who really uses CDs anymore, though?  Most blank media is the computer's hard drive or some mp3 player. 

My purpose was to invalidate your previous argument.

I buy a pack of CD-Rs every few months.

[CrAz3D]

I haven't bought a pack of CDs in ... I don't know, way over a year though.

[Newby]

I haven't bought a pack of CDs in ... I don't know, way over a year though.

I've burned like 5-10 DVD/CDs in the last... couple of days.

[Blaze]

I haven't bought a pack of CDs in ... I don't know, way over a year though.

You don't live in Canada, so it doesn't matter either way. 

I buy CD-R/DVD-R's every few months.

[Sidoh]

I haven't bought a pack of CDs in ... I don't know, way over a year though.

Holy crap, a counter example.  That's definitely statistically significant.

[MyndFyre]

I haven't bought a pack of CDs in ... I don't know, way over a year though.

Holy crap, a counter example.  That's definitely statistically significant.

About as much as your counter-counter example. 

[CrAz3D]

I spose we should really survey downloaders , but I'd figure that many people just transfer to the mp3 player and skip the whole CD thing and that these average users don't burn lots of stuff onto CDs.

[Sidoh]

About as much as your counter-counter example. 

Haha, I didn't mean for that to be any sort of evidence, though it certainly could be interpreted that way.

I spose we should really survey downloaders , but I'd figure that many people just transfer to the mp3 player and skip the whole CD thing and that these average users don't burn lots of stuff onto CDs.

I thought iago said the levy applied to hard drives too?  I'd be pretty silly to not include MP3 players in the list.

[Blaze]

I thought iago said the levy applied to hard drives too?  I'd be pretty silly to not include MP3 players in the list.

Well, they tried to get Hard-Drives / Memory cards for things levied.. but they were rejected and what did get approved eventually got appealed successfully.  Oops? 

[CrAz3D]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#Canada

On 2008-01-11, The Federal Court of Appeal rejected the Copyright Board of Canada's proposed new levy on MP3 players, stating that the board erred in law, ruling that they do not have the regulatory authority to impose such levies.

They used to levy mp3 players, but not anymore and upon reintroduction it was challenged and, apparently, shot down.

[Sidoh]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#Canada

On 2008-01-11, The Federal Court of Appeal rejected the Copyright Board of Canada's proposed new levy on MP3 players, stating that the board erred in law, ruling that they do not have the regulatory authority to impose such levies.

They used to levy mp3 players, but not anymore and upon reintroduction it was challenged and, apparently, shot down.

I guess I'm missing you're point.  Are you trying to convince someone that this is a useless system?  It certainly seems to be more sensible than what the US has in place. :S

[iago]

At work, we have thousands of CDs in my department alone. I personally have well over 100 laying around, none of which are used for music.

The point is, as long as we're paying for music with every blank media we buy, we have the right to download music, and your laws don't apply here.

So yes, maybe Canada is one of the top violators of your laws here, but really, who cares? I sure don't. I'll continue to download music and to support the bands I like (by seeing them and buying their merchandise/CDs/whatever), as long as they don't get uppity and start filing lawsuits against their fans.

[CrAz3D]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#Canada

On 2008-01-11, The Federal Court of Appeal rejected the Copyright Board of Canada's proposed new levy on MP3 players, stating that the board erred in law, ruling that they do not have the regulatory authority to impose such levies.

They used to levy mp3 players, but not anymore and upon reintroduction it was challenged and, apparently, shot down.

I guess I'm missing you're point.  Are you trying to convince someone that this is a useless system?  It certainly seems to be more sensible than what the US has in place. :S

So long as the blank-media tax makes up for the millions lost otherwise...then it's ok.

[Sidoh]

So long as the blank-media tax makes up for the millions lost otherwise...then it's ok.

Like I said, I'm sure it's much more effective in paying the artists than what the US has in place ("don't do this or we'll catch you, you naughty boy!").

[iago]

So long as the blank-media tax makes up for the millions lost otherwise...then it's ok.

There is no proof that anybody (except _maybe_ the top-50 artists) has lost any money over it. But that's a much different, and much longer, subject. All their "lost millions" are based on the assumption that every download is a lost sale, which totally isn't true.

[CrAz3D]

Every illegal download IS a lost sale of that song.
If the person wanted two copies of the song they could buy it on iTunes and buy the CD, preventing that loss.

[MyndFyre]

Every illegal download IS a lost sale of that song.
If the person wanted two copies of the song they could buy it on iTunes and buy the CD, preventing that loss.

No, not true.

Example:

I owned a CD.

During a move, the CD broke because a futon was dropped on it.

Isn't it my right to still listen to that music?

[leet_muffin]

Every illegal download IS a lost sale of that song.
If the person wanted two copies of the song they could buy it on iTunes and buy the CD, preventing that loss.

No, not true.

Example:

I owned a CD.

During a move, the CD broke because a futon was dropped on it.

Isn't it my right to still listen to that music?

Sure, if you have the technology to glue the CD back together and all. =).

[CrAz3D]

Every illegal download IS a lost sale of that song.
If the person wanted two copies of the song they could buy it on iTunes and buy the CD, preventing that loss.

No, not true.

Example:

I owned a CD.

During a move, the CD broke because a futon was dropped on it.

Isn't it my right to still listen to that music?

Doesn't the right go along with the media device?  Like Windows ... if you want to use it on another computer at different times you need another copy.

[MyndFyre]

Doesn't the right go along with the media device?  Like Windows ... if you want to use it on another computer at different times you need another copy.

Which media device are we discussing here?  I was talking about a disc, not a player.

Sure, if you have the technology to glue the CD back together and all. =).

That's retarded.

[Joe]

I haven't bought a pack of CDs in ... I don't know, way over a year though.

Holy crap, a counter example.  That's definitely statistically significant.

How often Craz3d buys CD's is pretty subjective, don't you think?

[Sidoh]

I haven't bought a pack of CDs in ... I don't know, way over a year though.

Holy crap, a counter example.  That's definitely statistically significant.

How often Craz3d buys CD's is pretty subjective, don't you think?

Hahahah

[Hitmen]

Every illegal download IS a lost sale of that song.
If the person wanted two copies of the song they could buy it on iTunes and buy the CD, preventing that loss.

no? I never would have bought most of the shit I download. Since I never would have bought it, how is it a lost sale? This is where the fuzzy math takes over.
(aside from the fact that tons of it is 20+ years old and out of print so I couldn't if I wanted too )

[CrAz3D]

Doesn't the right go along with the media device?  Like Windows ... if you want to use it on another computer at different times you need another copy.

Which media device are we discussing here?  I was talking about a disc, not a player.

Sure, if you have the technology to glue the CD back together and all. =).

That's retarded.

I dont know how media rights works ... I guess this thread should end (at least this discussion) until someone comes up with actual laws

[MyndFyre]

Every illegal download IS a lost sale of that song.
If the person wanted two copies of the song they could buy it on iTunes and buy the CD, preventing that loss.

no? I never would have bought most of the shit I download. Since I never would have bought it, how is it a lost sale? This is where the fuzzy math takes over.
(aside from the fact that tons of it is 20+ years old and out of print so I couldn't if I wanted too )

That's a somewhat specious argument because there's no way to prove what you would or wouldn't have purchased. It's based on faulty premise.

[Ender]

Every illegal download IS a lost sale of that song.
If the person wanted two copies of the song they could buy it on iTunes and buy the CD, preventing that loss.

No, not true.

Example:

I owned a CD.

During a move, the CD broke because a futon was dropped on it.

Isn't it my right to still listen to that music?

natural right? legal right?

Since if you chose to follow the law you would probably buy it again (you wanted it before, what's different now?) it is a lost sale for them.

[Hitmen]

That's a somewhat specious argument because there's no way to prove what you would or wouldn't have purchased. It's based on faulty premise.

Just like there is no way to prove that each download is a lost sale?

[iago]

That's a somewhat specious argument because there's no way to prove what you would or wouldn't have purchased. It's based on faulty premise.

Well, I can safely say that I wouldn't have even _heard_ of 95% of what I have if it wasn't for downloading random metal stuff from friends. And of that stuff, I have bought at least a dozen albums of my favouite ones, and I have gone to dozens of concerts and bought a bunch of merchandise from those bands.

If I hadn't ever heard of those bands (which I guarantee would be the case), then those bands likely would never have gotten my money.

The only time this thing doesn't hold is for the top 50 or so bands that are played on the radio/on bars/in movies/etc. They'll get a lot of sales because they have a big push behind them. But all the smaller bands who don't get radio time would be unheard of to me.

[Joe]

Doesn't the right go along with the media device?  Like Windows ... if you want to use it on another computer at different times you need another copy.

Which media device are we discussing here?  I was talking about a disc, not a player.

Sure, if you have the technology to glue the CD back together and all. =).

That's retarded.

I dont know how media rights works ... I guess this thread should end (at least this discussion) until someone comes up with actual laws

The right doesn't go with the media, the right goes with the license. If it went with the media, when you scratch your Windows installation disk, you wouldn't be allowed to use Windows anymore.


Also, excuse yet another reference to Metallica, but here's a quote from one of the biggest selling bands of all time.

"I don't mind people downloading the songs... Just not until the album's actually out."

"The song, "I Disappear" got leaked out before we actually finished it all. I was just like Whoa!"

[CrAz3D]

But does the license allow for duplication of the media?

[MyndFyre]

Well, I can safely say that I wouldn't have even _heard_ of 95% of what I have if it wasn't for downloading random metal stuff from friends. And of that stuff, I have bought at least a dozen albums of my favouite ones, and I have gone to dozens of concerts and bought a bunch of merchandise from those bands.

Anecdotal evidence: not statistically useful. 

[iago]

Well, I can safely say that I wouldn't have even _heard_ of 95% of what I have if it wasn't for downloading random metal stuff from friends. And of that stuff, I have bought at least a dozen albums of my favouite ones, and I have gone to dozens of concerts and bought a bunch of merchandise from those bands.

Anecdotal evidence: not statistically useful. 

Fine by me! We'll stay with our good laws, and you guys can keep your bad ones.

[rabbit]

Can we have your good ones?

[iago]

No, but how about we let you keep William Shatner and Jim Carrey, and call it even?

[Rule]

No, but how about we let you keep William Shatner and Jim Carrey, and call it even?

http://www.youtube.com/v/v7q6tI9gohM

I think you want this guy. 

[leet_muffin]

No, but how about we let you keep William Shatner and Jim Carrey, and call it even?

What about Gary Busey, do we get him, too?

[MyndFyre]

No, but how about we let you keep William Shatner and Jim Carrey, and call it even?

What about Gary Busey, do we get him, too?

PLEASE NO.