Inmate sues to get vegan diet

[CrAz3D]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/06/19/inmate_wins_case_vs_state_over_diet/?mj

He won.

A lowlife child killing, wife beating, SOB should get a vegan diet ... bread and water.

When the fuck did prison become so awesome?  I say we need reform!  Less food, less activity, more executions!  It makes no sense to afford such luxuries to the scum of society when other up standing people do with far less.

[deadly7]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/06/19/inmate_wins_case_vs_state_over_diet/?mj

He won.

A lowlife child killing, wife beating, SOB should get a vegan diet ... bread and water.

When the fuck did prison become so awesome?  I say we need reform!  Less food, less activity, more executions!  It makes no sense to afford such luxuries to the scum of society when other up standing people do with far less.

Great, except it costs more (on average) to kill a person than it does to keep them in prison for life. And that's not even touching on the objectivity and subjectivity of it all.

[Blaze]

There are some REALLY nice low security prisons up here.  It's like having your own small villa.

[iago]

I think that's totally reasonable. I mean, I completely disagree with meat (and such) on moral grounds, so it would be absolutely wrong to force a prisoner to do that.

I think that *all* prisoners should be put on vegan diets, but that's just me.

[CrAz3D]

That's under the current system because we afford them too many luxuries.  To be execute it should cost about $.25 (cost of a bullet) and another $5(?) to burn the body to heat/power the prison.

Execution process should be:
-DNA evidence/video tape evidence/confession (something really strong)
-Conviction
-Sentencing
-Appeal for any error of law
-364 days 'til death

That'd make executions the most inexpensive way to go about business.

There are some REALLY nice low security prisons up here.  It's like having your own small villa.

In elementary(?) school we toured the County Detention center, shit, that place was nicer than my house!  Granted we didn't have all of the luxuries of life, but a very chill A/C and cable TV in jail was more than we had at the house for the longest time (swamp cooler and rabbit ears FTW).

I think that's totally reasonable. I mean, I completely disagree with meat (and such) on moral grounds, so it would be absolutely wrong to force a prisoner to do that.

Prisoners are no longer equal citizens, they are at BEST second class citizens and should be treated as such.  No choices.  No luxuries.  No enjoyment of life.

[iago]

I think that's totally reasonable. I mean, I completely disagree with meat (and such) on moral grounds, so it would be absolutely wrong to force a prisoner to do that.

Prisoners are no longer equal citizens, they are at BEST second class citizens and should be treated as such.  No choices.  No luxuries.  No enjoyment of life.

It's not about luxury or enjoyment. It's about the right thing to do.

[deadly7]

That's under the current system because we afford them too many luxuries.  To be execute it should cost about $.25 (cost of a bullet) and another $5(?) to burn the body to heat/power the prison.

ROFL. You can't be serious.

Execution process should be:
-DNA evidence/video tape evidence/confession (something really strong)

Can be doctored/can be doctored/are admissable in a court of law in certain circumstances

-Conviction
-Sentencing
-Appeal for any error of law

So, the normal legal process.

-364 days 'til death

Great. And how do you decide who gets to die? Where's the cut-off line? Is someone who kills 50 cows for no reason more deserving of death than someone who raped a child? You've made absolutely no argument other than "dude we need to kill those guys kekeke." But then again, that's how you roll.

[Warrior]

Execution process should be:
-DNA evidence/video tape evidence/confession (something really strong)
-Conviction
-Sentencing
-Appeal for any error of law
-364 days 'til death

Sorry but no, execution should cost every penny it does because it should only be reserved for the most heinous crimes and only after an extensive process of appeals. Not just one spanning a year.

People on Death Row have been found to be innocent before, if you were on Death Row and were innocent -- would you be comfortable with the fact that your lawyer has 364 days to get you off?

Not to mention that people do genuinely become rehabilitated in prison, and as such there is a potential for a reducing in sentencing to life in prison instead of execution.

[Joe]

Is someone who kills 50 cows for no reason more deserving of death than someone who raped a child?

Perhaps I missed something, but I didn't think killing 50 cows for no reason would get you life in prison. brb, moving to Canada.

[CrAz3D]

Anyway ... back to people not deserving luxuries in prison as we've pretty much beat the killing-people-horse dead twice

[iago]

Anyway ... back to people not deserving luxuries in prison as we've pretty much beat the killing-people-horse dead twice

And back to my last post that you seem to have ignored, having a vegan diet isn't a luxury.

[CrAz3D]

Having a CHOICE is a luxury.  Everyone should eat only what they need to survive without dying.  Maybe vegan IS the way to go.  Bread and water and a small bag of peanuts.

[Camel]

I believe that a life sentence is a harsher punishment than execution. Executions are just very, very late term abortions, and should be reserved for extraordinary cases. To be clear, I'm pro-execution, but I'd only want it to be a federal sentence, by a high court. I wouldn't want a murderer or a child molester executed, but I would say blowing up a building is a pretty good reason to execute someone - not as a punishment, but as a way to eliminate the threat.

I agree that prisoners do have it easier than they should, but I'm not for bread and water and 140 degree cells; that's cruel, and contradictory to a system based on reform. In the case of non-life first-time offenders, prisoners should be given the opportunity to get some fundamental education where applicable, to hopefully become people who are beneficial to society. Sometimes that is a pipe dream, so that's why I say first-timers only. In certain low-security prisons, there are programs like that, but it's pretty rare because of the expense.

[iago]

Having a CHOICE is a luxury.  Everyone should eat only what they need to survive without dying.  Maybe vegan IS the way to go.  Bread and water and a small bag of peanuts.

You're probably right that meat and dairy are more of a luxury than vegetables. Eating a pure veggie diet would probably be cheaper and easier than a diet including meat/dairy, and is just as nutritious done properly.

Bread, water, and peanuts aren't enough to survive, though. There are important nutrients (iron, potassium, b12, even vitamin C) that they would be missing. But a proper mixture of fruit, vegetables and grains could do it.

[while1]

Convicts are second class citizens, hell in 14 states ex-cons lose their right to vote even after serving their time (which I feel is wrong).

[CrAz3D]

Convicts are second class citizens, hell in 14 states ex-cons lose their right to vote even after serving their time (which I feel is wrong).

Felons?

Yeah, they shouldnt vote as they've already proven that they make HORRIBLE choices

[while1]

Eh, I usually agree with you, but I disagree in this area.  Just as I believe strongly in the 2nd amendment, I also believe in the right to vote.  Whether or not you make bad decisions.  Hell, I'd a lot of Americans who are non-felons make really bad decisions that would make me question their ability to vote... but I still believe that if they are 18 they should be able to vote just like any other of age adult in the U.S.

EDIT:  If this does't make sense, then it's b/c of the liter of wine id rank.  Sorry.

[iago]

This comes back to the broken penal system -- people are supposed to go to jail to be rehabilitated, not punished. Punishment obviously doesn't do anything, since the vast majority of inmates go back to crime.

[Warrior]

This comes back to the broken penal system -- people are supposed to go to jail to be rehabilitated, not punished. Punishment obviously doesn't do anything, since the vast majority of inmates go back to crime.

I disagree strongly, people go to jail for distinct reasons. Rehabilitation being one of them, there is a point where people are so fucked up that this is no longer an option. This is where incarceration for the purpose of incapacitation comes in. They don't care where you are, just so long as you are off of the streets.

The same distinction taken in the reason for jailing should be taken in treatment for prisoners, in my opinion. People there to be genuinely rehabilitated should be treated with a nicer tone or even completely separated in terms of cell blocks. I also believe the incapacitated should have the reserved right to become rehabilitated with time (Read: The Lifers Group).

That said, ideally everyone would be able to go in and come out rehabilitated -- but often the very opposite of this happens simply due to the amount of hard criminals in the environment you're put in even if it's for a stupid crime like possession.

[iago]

I disagree strongly, people go to jail for distinct reasons. Rehabilitation being one of them, there is a point where people are so fucked up that this is no longer an option. This is where incarceration for the purpose of incapacitation comes in. They don't care where you are, just so long as you are off of the streets.

When that's the case, what's the point of putting them in prison at all? If they're never going to be "better", why not just kill them?

The same distinction taken in the reason for jailing should be taken in treatment for prisoners, in my opinion. People there to be genuinely rehabilitated should be treated with a nicer tone or even completely separated in terms of cell blocks. I also believe the incapacitated should have the reserved right to become rehabilitated with time (Read: The Lifers Group).

As I said, I think everybody should be there to be rehabilitated, but I don't think prisons realize that anymore.

[Warrior]

I disagree strongly, people go to jail for distinct reasons. Rehabilitation being one of them, there is a point where people are so fucked up that this is no longer an option. This is where incarceration for the purpose of incapacitation comes in. They don't care where you are, just so long as you are off of the streets.

When that's the case, what's the point of putting them in prison at all? If they're never going to be "better", why not just kill them?

Because they've done nothing deserving of murder, yet they are repeat offenders of lesser crimes.

As I said, I think everybody should be there to be rehabilitated, but I don't think prisons realize that anymore.

That's very much easier said than done. I don't fault the prison more than I fault the entire legal system for taking a "throw away the key" approach to small crime -- putting people who would otherwise lead a normal life into an environment which is shared with real criminals. That kind of thing does not help you, a lot of people come out of jail more fucked up than when they went in.

Imagine a Lifer getting paroled, he has no grip on what the real world is like when he comes out. Most of the time they have no family, and no future awaits them. In prison they were at least known by someone -- when they come out they are nobodies with no hopes of ever being anyone since their life has been pretty much wasted in this so called "rehabilitation".

[CrAz3D]

why not just kill them?

kill them all

[Warrior]

why not just kill them?

kill them all

iago and crazed agree

i believe i can now claim i have won this thread by process of elimination

[MyndFyre]

Great, except it costs more (on average) to kill a person than it does to keep them in prison for life. And that's not even touching on the objectivity and subjectivity of it all.

Seriously?  Cuz I wouldn't even charge.

[iago]

Because they've done nothing deserving of murder, yet they are repeat offenders of lesser crimes.

But what's the point? They're going to get out and hurt people again until they get caught and put back in again (not necessarily hurt physically, I count theft and all that too). If you aren't going to help them change, why even bother?

That's very much easier said than done. I don't fault the prison more than I fault the entire legal system for taking a "throw away the key" approach to small crime -- putting people who would otherwise lead a normal life into an environment which is shared with real criminals. That kind of thing does not help you, a lot of people come out of jail more fucked up than when they went in.

Imagine a Lifer getting paroled, he has no grip on what the real world is like when he comes out. Most of the time they have no family, and no future awaits them. In prison they were at least known by someone -- when they come out they are nobodies with no hopes of ever being anyone since their life has been pretty much wasted in this so called "rehabilitation".

I agree, and that's why I think the prison system is inherently flawed. It IS easier said than done, but it doesn't even seem like anybody is trying.

iago and crazed agree

No, I don't agree. I think that they should work to rehabilitate everybody. If they aren't going to bother, why not kill them? I'm presenting the killing idea as the other end of a dilemma, but I don't agree with it.

i believe i can now claim i have won this thread by process of elimination

I wasn't aware it was a competition.

[Ender]

Great, except it costs more (on average) to kill a person than it does to keep them in prison for life.

I don't see how this can be true. Source?

[deadly7]

I don't see how this can be true. Source?

http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html
Not a source in itself, but he gives books/articles and stuff, and I don't much care to find them.

Edit:
http://law.jrank.org/pages/5002/Capital-Punishment-COSTS-CAPITAL-PUNISHMENT.html
This is mucch better of a source, imo.

[Camel]

Great, except it costs more (on average) to kill a person than it does to keep them in prison for life. And that's not even touching on the objectivity and subjectivity of it all.

Seriously?  Cuz I wouldn't even charge.

It's expensive because of the overhead cost, not the actual execution. It takes a lot of work for a state to organize and execute (pun intended).