Author Topic: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense  (Read 9210 times)

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Offline Camel

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Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« on: September 11, 2008, 07:29:43 pm »
I've been hearing for quite some time now about how Comcast is notorious for doing some tricky bandwidth limiting tactics to make it seem to the user that they've got move bandwidth than they actually do. Some time this week, I became among the target of these tactics.



I can get, for short bursts of time, in the 5Mbit range, but as you can see I can only sustain about 1Mbit. This image is scrolling at about 1px/sec.

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Offline Sidoh

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2008, 07:44:34 pm »
Wow, that sucks.  It makes me glad I cancelled my comcast internet service before it started. :)

Unfortunately, the other options don't look great either, but at least they're not doing shady bullshit like that.  I'll probably go with Qwest.

Offline iago

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2008, 07:57:25 pm »
I found that there's a small two-man company in my city that provides Internet over the telephone company's DSL lines. I'm planning on switching over to them when I get back from vacation, since they're about as open/honest as you'll get in the ISP market. :)

Offline Newby

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2008, 08:50:50 pm »
That's shitty. I'll have issues where I'll start a download on newsgroups, and it'll start out at 500 KB/s. I'll pause it, resume it, and it'll trickle down to 80 KB/s. I'll continue this, and eventually it'll jump up to my limit (~950-1000 KB/s). :/
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[17:32:45] * xar sets mode: -oooooooooo algorithm ban chris cipher newby stdio TehUser tnarongi|away vursed warz
[17:32:54] * xar sets mode: +o newby
[17:32:58] <xar> new rule
[17:33:02] <xar> me and newby rule all

I'd bet that you're currently bloated like a water ballon on a hot summer's day.

That analogy doesn't even make sense.  Why would a water balloon be especially bloated on a hot summer's day? For your sake, I hope there wasn't too much logic testing on your LSAT. 

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2008, 08:51:43 pm »
Theyre supposed to cap at 250gb/month now IIRC

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2008, 08:54:36 pm »
Theyre supposed to cap at 250gb/month now IIRC

This is a separate, but also annoying issue.

Fuck Comcast.  I'll never use them for an ISP.  I'm half tempted to cancel my cable just so I'm not supporting them.

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2008, 09:19:42 pm »
Its all going that way, sometime or another.  Fuck it all.

Offline rabbit

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2008, 09:31:27 pm »
Normally Comcast has a monopoly on University City, Olde City, and Center City in Philadelphia, but my building is lucky enough to have a deal with Verizon for FiOS (which we're getting!) so I won't have to deal with this shit.

Offline iago

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2008, 09:38:48 pm »
Its all going that way, sometime or another.  Fuck it all.
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Offline CrAz3D

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« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2008, 09:42:52 pm »
Its all going that way, sometime or another.  Fuck it all.
Money talks. If enough people dump them for that reason, they'll rethink it.


Not when there are so few ISP's.....in our area there is Comcast, Qwest dsl, or ... uhm ... *maybe* satellite of sorts

Offline Blaze

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2008, 09:49:19 pm »
My ISP limits at 95GB and then charges for overages.  :(
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Offline Camel

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2008, 07:03:12 pm »
Theyre supposed to cap at 250gb/month now IIRC

I don't understand why people are whining about this. Who's transferring over 10GB/day? It took me about a day to download Spore, and that was only 3.5GB.

[edit] and my share ratio is 6.2, so that's ~25GB

<Camel> i said what what
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Offline Newby

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2008, 07:15:16 pm »
[edit] and my share ratio is 6.2, so that's ~25GB

With newsgroups, I could easily see myself hitting that limit. :P

But yes, you're right: people are complaining, and nobody will ever legitimately hit that limit.
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Quote
[17:32:45] * xar sets mode: -oooooooooo algorithm ban chris cipher newby stdio TehUser tnarongi|away vursed warz
[17:32:54] * xar sets mode: +o newby
[17:32:58] <xar> new rule
[17:33:02] <xar> me and newby rule all

I'd bet that you're currently bloated like a water ballon on a hot summer's day.

That analogy doesn't even make sense.  Why would a water balloon be especially bloated on a hot summer's day? For your sake, I hope there wasn't too much logic testing on your LSAT. 

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2008, 07:16:27 pm »
Theyre supposed to cap at 250gb/month now IIRC

I don't understand why people are whining about this. Who's transferring over 10GB/day? It took me about a day to download Spore, and that was only 3.5GB.

[edit] and my share ratio is 6.2, so that's ~25GB

It is a very large limit, but what guarantee is there that they won't lower it when they realize it doesn't solve their "problems"?

For me, it's more of a matter of principle than practicality.

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2008, 08:17:07 pm »
Just as an interesting sidenote, when I was at the Microsoft campus in February I ran this and they had something obscene, as in it broke the speakeasy test.  I think they're right on the pipe or something. :o
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Offline Blaze

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2008, 06:31:17 am »
Theyre supposed to cap at 250gb/month now IIRC

I don't understand why people are whining about this. Who's transferring over 10GB/day? It took me about a day to download Spore, and that was only 3.5GB.

[edit] and my share ratio is 6.2, so that's ~25GB

I used 17 GB (rounded down) the other day without trying to.
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Offline Camel

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2008, 03:20:27 pm »
It is a very large limit, but what guarantee is there that they won't lower it when they realize it doesn't solve their "problems"?

For me, it's more of a matter of principle than practicality.

Comcast is evil, but they're not stupid. I'm not threatened by the transfer limit, but the packet shaping pisses me off - this is clearly not a matter of too much network load; they are trying to define a premium service so they can charge more money.

I called Comcast last night to cancel my service, and I made it perfectly clear that it was because of the unreasonable level of packet shaping. I'm switching to another provider that costs more money and has a lower data rate - but I'm moving in 2 months to a place where I can get fios.

<Camel> i said what what
<Blaze> in the butt
<Camel> you want to do it in my butt?
<Blaze> in my butt
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Offline Sidoh

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2008, 03:46:13 pm »
It is a very large limit, but what guarantee is there that they won't lower it when they realize it doesn't solve their "problems"?

For me, it's more of a matter of principle than practicality.

Comcast is evil, but they're not stupid. I'm not threatened by the transfer limit, but the packet shaping pisses me off - this is clearly not a matter of too much network load; they are trying to define a premium service so they can charge more money.

I called Comcast last night to cancel my service, and I made it perfectly clear that it was because of the unreasonable level of packet shaping. I'm switching to another provider that costs more money and has a lower data rate - but I'm moving in 2 months to a place where I can get fios.

Yes, the packet shaping was definitely my main motivation for saying "screw this".  The throttle torrent and even VPN traffic from what I hear.  That's just unacceptable.  They're a horrible, horrible company.

Offline Camel

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2008, 06:44:23 pm »
It's not throttling; it's packet shaping. They are similar concepts in the way the user experiences it, but it's fundamentally different in how it works. Traffic shaping, or packet shaping, is when the provider intentionally introduces latency. The argument is that it allows low-bandwidth systems that can't handle high latency to recieve the low latency they deserve, but the problem can be solved properly with well thought out Quality of Service model.

At my company, we use QoS very extensively. EVDO traffic goes through the same backbone that internet traffic does - voice calls are just industry standard VoIP, and 3G cell phone providers all have their hand in the internet game already, so it just makes sense to combine the networks. If, however, the network is bogged down from non-voice traffic, the same rules do not apply: it's not acceptable to drop a call, and it's not acceptable to degrade the quality of that call.

So, what do you do? Traffic shaping sounds great - just ignore non-voice data until the voice data buffer is empty, and then process the rest.

WRONG!

You never let data sit in the buffer without re-transmitting it. If you do that, the client will re-transmit - that's guaranteed by just about every layer on the OSI model. You have to treat the overages the way you would if there was no high-priority traffic: just try taking another route. The other route might not work, but it also might discover a faster path! In the average case, what you find is that there's actually no effect, since it's totally normal for a frame to get dropped on the internet due to poor pathing anyways - in fact, that's what makes the internet resilient against physical restructuring and network load.

3G adoption in the US was slow because ISPs didn't know how to handle these cases. When QoS was first conceived, its implementation was extremely naive. QoS traditionally works at the IP level, by flagging packets with a priority. This is a good model to start on, or for use behind a customer's NAT-enabled router, as it allows applications to specify how latency-sensitive their data is. It's flawed, however, because applications can also abuse that power to perform DoS attacks.

From Comcast's perspective, this dated QoS model is the only one that exists. They're not an IP company, they're just providing a service. They don't want to spend money researching ways to enhance their network, they just want mom and dad to be able to have zippy access to Hotmail.

It's really sad that this is the case. They went through all the trouble of defining packet shaping rules when they could have spent that effort defining QoS rules. What's even worse is that this whole thing is way too complicated for mom and dad to understand - I know my parents aren't going to be angry, but I sure am.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 06:47:45 pm by Camel »

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Offline nslay

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2008, 07:14:17 pm »
With a D-Link (Hitron) DCM-202 (BRG-3520T) cable modem and a FreeBSD router, I can get about 700-800KB/s all day long.  Comcast has been pretty good to me and I have never experienced the things you post.  In your case, diminished performance is probably due to your neighbors pirating and downloading tons of porn.
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Offline c0Ld

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2008, 09:11:30 pm »
I used to have 10M Comcast for $45/mo after they bought out my old ISP that only charged $30/mo for the same service, and it'd go down for several hours at peak times at least one time a week; a thing it never did with my old ISP. That combined with the packet shaping made me switch to 6M SBC Global (AT&T) DSL for $25/mo -- and I couldn't be happier. On the rare occasion that it's gone down, it's for only a few minutes and after 2AM. It may be only a little over half as fast, but at least I get to actually use the advertised speed. On top of that, my ping to some of my favorite game servers is significantly lower with SBC -- one CS server in particular went from 60-80ms with Comcast to 20-30ms with SBC.

As a side note, I know that it's probably a location-specific thing for them to go down for several peak hours a week, but I waited through 6 months of that shit since they bought out my old ISP and it still wasn't fixed.

Offline deadly7

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2008, 09:52:32 pm »
With a D-Link (Hitron) DCM-202 (BRG-3520T) cable modem and a FreeBSD router, I can get about 700-800KB/s all day long.  Comcast has been pretty good to me and I have never experienced the things you post.  In your case, diminished performance is probably due to your neighbors pirating and downloading tons of porn.
I don't have the first two, but I *have* experienced constant downloads over 1MB/s for a large amount of time (read: downloaded an entire DVD collection at this speed). I hate Comcast just because my internet is so fucking expensive, especiallyc ompared to Time Warner's RoadRunner internet that I had before they bought them out, but I can't deny that I get great ul/dl speeds.
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Offline Camel

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2008, 10:00:59 pm »
In your case, diminished performance is probably due to your neighbors pirating and downloading tons of porn.

Did you read what I said, or look at the image? This is a matter of packet shaping, pure and simple.

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Offline nslay

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2008, 10:40:14 pm »
I saw it, and I maintain that I don't experience what you posted.
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Offline Camel

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2008, 01:40:11 am »
They are still in the process of rolling it out; it just started happening within the last week for me. It's supposed to be in effect everywhere by the end of this month. Comcast acknowledges that they are doing this, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

<Camel> i said what what
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Offline Skywing

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2008, 10:51:45 am »
The reality is, however, that the dollar per megabit cost, even in large bulk transit pipes, is just so far below what you pay for month for Comcast for the advertised connection that there's no way that ends will meet if you actually consume that much.  This has pretty much always been true.  Residiential ISPs need to oversubscribe to survive, because there are just not enough residiential customers willing to pay the price for dedicated bandwidth and enough overhead to cover the ISP's other support costs (last mile connectivity, plant maintenance), and enough for the ISP to even begin thinking about making any sort of profit at the end of the day.

These ISPs have never really been selling unlimited bandwidth, if only because given how oversubscribed they are, it's just physically not possible for everyone to burst their link at full all day and receive their full throughput.

Now, sure, advertising things as unlimited despite that is at best deceptive, and at worst probably legally questionable, especially given the FCC's recent actions against Comcast.  Comcast has sucky business practices, but any other ISP that you choose is not going to be really selling you "unlimited" bandwidth.  At least, not unless you are buying something like a T-1 or a hard commit at a reputable colo facility, and those are much more expensive (orders of magnitude) than a residential cable hookup in terms of what you would be billed for (and the latter would only help if you lived at a colo facility, something that the building maintainers would likely take exception to).

It's pretty much a fact of life, though, that if you see "unlimited" (most) anywhere, that's not really unlimited, just "more than we think that the average person will use" (at best), or "shady", and with a low limit (at worst, and not too uncommon, actually).

iago: You should perform some research into who provides that company's upstream connection.  I have been reading a lot about small, local Canadian ISPs that lease lines from the big giants (e.g. Rogers) getting hosed and having the ISP they are renting lines from, or their upstream provider, perform their own rate limiting and go back on their commitments to said small ISP.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 12:04:21 pm by Skywing »

Offline iago

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2008, 12:22:53 pm »
iago: You should perform some research into who provides that company's upstream connection.  I have been reading a lot about small, local Canadian ISPs that lease lines from the big giants (e.g. Rogers) getting hosed and having the ISP they are renting lines from, or their upstream provider, perform their own rate limiting and go back on their commitments to said small ISP.
Yeah, most likely their upstream subscribers are questionable.

On the plus side, these guys are honest about their bandwidth caps, and they aren't especially high. Since I don't use torrents or anything like that, i'm not worried.

Offline Camel

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2008, 02:14:05 pm »
The reality is, however, that the dollar per megabit cost, even in large bulk transit pipes, is just so far below what you pay for month for Comcast for the advertised connection that there's no way that ends will meet if you actually consume that much.  This has pretty much always been true.  Residiential ISPs need to oversubscribe to survive, because there are just not enough residiential customers willing to pay the price for dedicated bandwidth and enough overhead to cover the ISP's other support costs (last mile connectivity, plant maintenance), and enough for the ISP to even begin thinking about making any sort of profit at the end of the day.

I am okay with that, but network load is clearly not being taken in to account for Comcast's packet shaping policy. I took this screenshot at 4AM, and you can clearly see that the network met no resistance at double the throughput before the conditions of the policy were met.

It might have been prudent to include the latency meter along with the graph, but I thought it it would be confusing to (most) people - the highest stable ping time I had throughout the entire period of that graph was 100ms, with the exception of the times while I was under the influence of packet shaping, where I was getting nothing but timeouts.

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Offline Camel

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2008, 02:27:24 pm »
They admitted they were using Sandvine to perform packet shaping BitTorrent and other P2P traffic. The FCC said they can't do that - but they can do global packet shaping to "overall" bandwidth hogs during peak hours. It isn't clear yet whether or not the FCC requires this to be based on network load, but it probably isn't enough to just define peak hours as something and run with it.

<Camel> i said what what
<Blaze> in the butt
<Camel> you want to do it in my butt?
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<Blaze> Okay!

Offline Camel

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2008, 12:43:28 pm »
Holy bump, batman!

For some clarification: the FCC requires that there is no criteria other than instantaneous bandwidth use. This essentially means they can have a variable cap, but renders packet shaping utterly useless, because they can't even use data from 5ms ago. Last I spoke to Comcast about this, they did not agree on my interpretation of the FCC's declaration, so I canceled my service and reported them to the FCC.

Since then, I've moved to a new apartment, and have got set up with 20/5 FiOS. The tech from Verizon with whom I spoke said that the company believes that packet shaping is a solution to a problem that is manufactured of an obsolete technology, and that they have no plans to even consider packet shaping. After asking some carefully worded questions, he said that that the backbone of the FiOS network is under very little load compared to its capacity, and that Verizon has no intention of overselling its bandwidth the way cable co's do.

<Camel> i said what what
<Blaze> in the butt
<Camel> you want to do it in my butt?
<Blaze> in my butt
<Camel> let's do it in the butt
<Blaze> Okay!

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2008, 12:53:48 pm »
Sounds awesome.  I wish I could get FiOS in my area. :(

Offline Skywing

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2008, 02:00:15 pm »
After asking some carefully worded questions, he said that that the backbone of the FiOS network is under very little load compared to its capacity, and that Verizon has no intention of overselling its bandwidth the way cable co's do.

This seems unlikely to me.  $15-$20/megabit for bandwidth commitments in the range you're talking about is not uncommon for well-connected and easily-accessible environments like datacenters.  Even when purchasing bandwidth commits in the 100mbit range, you're probably still looking at something in at least the $10/mbit range.  Verizon also has to field support costs, local loop buildout costs, and other things that are less of an issue in a datacenter-style environment.

Unless you're paying hundreds of dollars a month for that link (+ much more in setup costs), it is being oversubscribed (or has an effective usage cap that prevents you from getting anywhere near 20mbit average bandwidth usage per month).  Otherwise, Verizon would be running themselves into the ground by selling orders of magnitude under cost.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 02:04:46 pm by Skywing »

Offline Camel

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Re: Comcast's roumored bandwidth nonsense
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2008, 02:46:39 pm »
Woops, I think I chose my words poorly. What I meant is that there is enough bandwidth on the fiber to saturate 20Mbit to everyone that the CO serves - not that the CO has enough bandwidth to provide that much throughput for everyone to the internet simultaneously. The fiber has a much higher capacity for carrying data than coax does because the way the signals are put on the medium are completely different.

With cable there's a really small amount of bandwidth (~200MHz, IIRC) that you have to share with everyone on your street. I think that the coax can only take a carrier of about 2GHz (which is where the ~200MHz of bandwidth comes from), and you have to be really careful about harmonic frequencies. If you are paying for 10MBit cable service, your modem can't even run that fast when the kids on your street get home from school - you're dead in the water before you even hit the bottleneck at the CO.

With a fiber, you can get a lot more bandwidth (not the frequency spread of the channel in this case, but data throughput) because you pick light of a specific frequency (the channel width is 0), and just slop a digital signal at whatever rate you like on top of it - as long as you don't get too close to the frequency of the light (factor of 10 is usually the closest you try to get - same as with analog), you'll get perfect reception. Even more cool is that you can combine frequencies which are really close together, because the channel width is infinitesimal.

Also, I'm paying about $3-4/megabit - no setup fees.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 02:54:23 pm by Camel »

<Camel> i said what what
<Blaze> in the butt
<Camel> you want to do it in my butt?
<Blaze> in my butt
<Camel> let's do it in the butt
<Blaze> Okay!