Author Topic: is it you?  (Read 13399 times)

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Offline Hitmen

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is it you?
« on: October 27, 2008, 06:10:44 pm »
Issue
Over 10,000 college students commit suicide each year in the United States.
The leading cause of suicide is known to be depression.
Such internal issues including depression, despair, frustration, and stress from
rigorous academic schedule and uncertain future after graduation
are expressed outwardly via divorce, family problems, hatred, anger, death,
insomnia, nightmare, seizure, oppression, auditory/visual hallucination,
unknown or incurable disease, homosexuality, desperate financial problem...
These issues are not an exception for your life and your school.

Cause
The fundamental cause of these problems is that
the mankind is separated from God.
The mankind lost the direction of life,
suffer from sin and curse,

live under the influence of Satan.
As a result, the mankind is subject to diverse types of issues in life.
Some say that is how the human life is meant to be.
However, the mankind is created to be happy and
enjoy the life God has provided.

Solution
There is a way.
God sent us Jesus Christ as the way to meet God, as the way of our life,
as the resolution to the sin, death, and curses to which we are subject , and
as the King of kings to crush Satan's power.
If you accept this Jesus Christ into your heart,
You will become God's child and will be able to live a purpose-driven life.

We are searching for people with this confession and/or
with the heart to help friends/neighbors suffering from the above conditions.

is it you?


Call (571) 338-3616
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Offline d&q

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2008, 06:23:42 pm »
Help me.  :-[
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Offline topaz~

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2008, 10:50:35 pm »
Why is your post right justified?

Offline Towelie

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2008, 10:52:28 pm »
LOL. Move this to the humor board?

Offline Sidoh

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2008, 10:59:13 pm »
I hate religion.

Offline Blaze

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2008, 11:18:12 pm »
I hate religion.

Religion as a concept is fine, but most people who practice them are pretty stupid.  :)
And like a fool I believed myself, and thought I was somebody else...

Offline Sidoh

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2008, 11:22:12 pm »
I hate religion.

Religion as a concept is fine, but most people who practice them are pretty stupid.  :)

Sets of beliefs are fine.  I, of course, have no problem with that.  However, organizations that seek profit from peoples' beliefs and make these kinds of stupid arguments piss me off.

Sorry, I've been on a bit of a long term rant against stupid creationists lately.  (By that, I don't mean creationists are stupid.  I mean I'm specifically upset with creationists that are stupid).

Offline Hitmen

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2008, 11:32:25 pm »
Why is your post right justified?
My post is a close to exact copy of a flyer that was all over the place at my school today. Including the retarded bolding and being right justified.
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Offline Kaleeko

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2008, 02:38:38 am »
Because telling people that the reason they want to kill themselves is that they don't believe in God -- or are "seperated" from God, whatever -- is a perfectly acceptable form of trying to convert people...

What's funny is that I hear this bullshit all the time from my parents. "I'm feeling down today." "And when was the last time you went to church?"

Organized religion is fucked up. Srsly.

Offline Armin

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2008, 05:06:13 am »
"I've discovered. . . a candy item... it's a cross on one side and a bible inscription on the other. You put it in your mouth, and when it's gone, you can get up and leave."

"Well its got to be a chocolate Jesus,
Good enough for me.
Got to be a chocolate Jesus,
Keep me satisfied."
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Offline Sidoh

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2008, 11:29:20 am »
Because telling people that the reason they want to kill themselves is that they don't believe in God -- or are "seperated" from God, whatever -- is a perfectly acceptable form of trying to convert people...

What's funny is that I hear this bullshit all the time from my parents. "I'm feeling down today." "And when was the last time you went to church?"

Organized religion is fucked up. Srsly.

That sucks. :(

My parents aren't that pushy, but coming out of the "agnostic" closet was a bit of a process, heh.

Yeah, I agree.  I don't know, maybe there are exceptions, but it certainly seems like the monster religions (Christianity, Islam, etc) can be dangerous/annoying.

Offline nslay

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2008, 12:54:33 pm »
Christianity preying on uncertain college students reminds me of the Tobacco industry ... hook em while they're young.  Religion is the most elaborate intangible self-torture device mankind has ever devised.  Christianity, in particular, helps you accept and understand yourself and your relationship with God, by hating and denying yourself...which is a paradox.  Accepting as absolute truth, axioms (beliefs), that are not intuitive, self-evident, or observable, and denying reality as a consequence, is not only a sad existence, but a dangerous mindset...this is blind faith.  Faith exists in science and math, except this faith is well rooted in simple intuition and observable evidence, hence it is not blind.  What is really profound is that science is answering religion-like questions with certainty (like how the universe was created, e.g. LHC)...religion has produced nothing in its thousands of years of existence.

Do you have what it takes to trust the observable and logical over superstition?  This sounds like a silly question, but I think its harder than you might realize...
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Offline Camel

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2008, 01:49:21 pm »
Because telling people that the reason they want to kill themselves is that they don't believe in God -- or are "seperated" from God, whatever -- is a perfectly acceptable form of trying to convert people...

I don't really agree; what if I posted a flyer just like that one, except I said that the cause was that there are too many terrorists alive, and the solution was to join the military? I think that would be equally immoral, and equally wrong.

The problem is with the way the information is presented. If you want to believe in a flying spaghetti monster, you have the right to do so - but you should not be allowed to preach it as fact. For example, evolution can be proven - it can be observed directly - but one can't prove that it describes where we came from, and therefore that it precludes intelligent design.

Of course, I've been known to drop the one-liner, "FOSSILS," in the midst of religious discussion. :)

I like the way Stephen Hawking described his notion of god. He explains that, for any given state of the universe, the following state is determined according to the laws of physics - the dimension that governs the transition of states is time. If you knew all of the physical laws, you could theoretically determine what the next state will be; but we do not know all of them, and there's a lot of calculations to be made for a universe so large in an infinitesimal time. Within the universe, there are four observable dimensions - three of space and one of time - but they do not exist outside of the universe. There can be an unbounded number of universes, but you can not say this "for any given time," as time and space are properties of a universe. It follows that for any state, there was a previous state -- that is, until you reach the point of time at which there could be no previous state according to the universal laws of physics, the instant of the big bang. So, whatever force set the initial state of the universe will, "for convenience," be referred to as god.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 01:51:55 pm by Camel »

<Camel> i said what what
<Blaze> in the butt
<Camel> you want to do it in my butt?
<Blaze> in my butt
<Camel> let's do it in the butt
<Blaze> Okay!

Offline Ender

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2008, 03:18:15 pm »
Why is your post right justified?
My post is a close to exact copy of a flyer that was all over the place at my school today. Including the retarded bolding and being right justified.

Maybe it being right justified is not coincidence? Think: politics. :P

Offline Kaleeko

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2008, 03:49:54 pm »
Because telling people that the reason they want to kill themselves is that they don't believe in God -- or are "seperated" from God, whatever -- is a perfectly acceptable form of trying to convert people...

I don't really agree; what if I posted a flyer just like that one, except I said that the cause was that there are too many terrorists alive, and the solution was to join the military? I think that would be equally immoral, and equally wrong.

I  hope you can tell I was being sarcastic. I didn't come right out and say it, I apologize, but, coming from someone who has suffered from severe depression, the *last* thing you should ever tell someone is that they're depressed because of something they did wrong.

This is just one more case of a fanatic group trying to take advantage of people under a really great time of trial in their life -- I'll admit, having a support group and hope, which a church can provide, is essential to getting through hard times, but forcing a belief system on someone who is trying to find a stable ground in their life is a prime example of how the church is taking advantage of people.

Don't get me wrong, Christianity is a wonderful religion (except for a few minor discrepencies I have), but the organization is effectively distorting it. Especially for the people attending this specific church -- I feel sorry for them, that they have  been lead to believe that this is acceptable.

Offline Sidoh

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2008, 04:02:16 pm »
GRADES FOR CAMEL, MR.

SARCASM: F

Offline Ender

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2008, 05:59:01 pm »
[...] or are "seperated" [...]

separated*

Offline Kaleeko

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2008, 06:40:24 pm »
[...] or are "seperated" [...]

separated*

I find it very odd that you correct my spelling errors here, and yet can't be bothered to capitalize anything and use 'lol' slang in IM, at least when speaking to me. I honestly don't care, I just find it weird. ;) Did I ever end up unblocking you, anyways? I honestly can't remember.

I need to, if I haven't. I actually kinda miss talking to you. :-O (Total and complete tangent.)

Offline Ender

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2008, 07:07:12 pm »
Because telling people that the reason they want to kill themselves is that they don't believe in God -- or are "seperated" from God, whatever -- is a perfectly acceptable form of trying to convert people...

What's funny is that I hear this bullshit all the time from my parents. "I'm feeling down today." "And when was the last time you went to church?"

Organized religion is fucked up. Srsly.

That sucks. :(

My parents aren't that pushy, but coming out of the "agnostic" closet was a bit of a process, heh.

Yeah, I agree.  I don't know, maybe there are exceptions, but it certainly seems like the monster religions (Christianity, Islam, etc) can be dangerous/annoying.

You'll feel differently if you study the philosophy of religion. A lot of smart people are, or were, religious; you're just focusing on a minority. This same minority of dumb and despicable people exists among atheists, but they often just don't have as much political power -- they are effectively invisible. You may argue that it is the effect of the minority that matters, and that religion enables the misplacement of political power; to which I will respond: if you denounce religion for effecting religious wars, you may as well denounce science for producing the atomic bomb. It's rather hypocritical.

Aside from this, the antagonization of religion is a vain way for many to exalt themselves. People like to be in minorities: such antipathy can be very self-serving. I'm not saying this about you, but rather as something that applies well in general.

The only way to attack Christianity is to start at the base, Christian morality, and the context in which it was introduced. You can't take advantage of a primary source by decrying disconnected secondary sources. A tree's strength is not measured by bad branches. The same can be said for Islam, Judaism, and all other religions.

Offline Sidoh

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2008, 07:28:31 pm »
You'll feel differently if you study the philosophy of religion. A lot of smart people are, or were, religious; you're just focusing on a minority. This same minority of dumb and despicable people exists among atheists, but they often just don't have as much political power -- they are effectively invisible. You may argue that it is the effect of the minority that matters, and that religion enables the misplacement of political power; to which I will respond: if you denounce religion for effecting religious wars, you may as well denounce science for producing the atomic bomb. It's rather hypocritical.

Aside from this, the antagonization of religion is a vain way for many to exalt themselves. People like to be in minorities: such antipathy can be very self-serving. I'm not saying this about you, but rather as something that applies well in general.

The only way to attack Christianity is to start at the base, Christian morality, and the context in which it was introduced. You can't take advantage of a primary source by decrying disconnected secondary sources. A tree's strength is not measured by bad branches. The same can be said for Islam, Judaism, and all other religions.

Doubtful.  And I NEVER claimed otherwise. 

If by "minority", you mean "nearly every creationist I've ever had a debate with", then I agree with that.

I do denounce religion for creating religious wars.  I think that's one of the most dangerous aspects of religion.  "You're wrong and I'm right, so I'm going to beat you up."  I'm not sure I understand how you can disagree with that.

Your analogy is crappy.  Science may have produced the atomic bomb, but it wasn't science that decided to use it.

I antagonize religion because the apparently arbitrary morals and definitions of certain things they impose on people cause them to say things like "homosexuals are sinners" or "stop killing babies."  Again -- I don't have ANY PROBLEM with religion as long as it doesn't get in the way of others.  Don't misinterpret what I'm saying or put words in my mouth.  Notice that I said "CAN BE" not "ARE".  You assume I said some things I didn't and then continue from there.  It's really annoying.

Disclaimer: my initial statement was formed out of frustration.  I stand by my "stay out of my way and I have no problem with you" philosophy.

Offline topaz~

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2008, 11:19:31 pm »
Interesting comment by my (conservative) mother about prop 8: "why should we let them marry? they're lucky we're not stoning them to death, we've been tolerant enough. america no longer has the blessing of god"

Offline Armin

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2008, 11:25:40 pm »
Let's redeem the blessing of God by killing our brothers! Forget the War on Drugs or the War Against Terrorism, we need the War Against Faggotism.
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Offline Blaze

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2008, 11:57:35 pm »
Let's redeem the blessing of God by killing our brothers! Forget the War on Drugs or the War Against Terrorism, we need the War Against Faggotism.

Yes on prop 8!
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Offline Hitmen

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2008, 12:39:07 am »
BTW, in case anyone is wondering, that's the real phone number on there. If anyone wants to call it I'm sure it would be good for a few lols. The thing I find the funniest is that no where on the page does it say who these people are. So I don't actually know who you would be calling :)
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Offline leet_muffin

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2008, 02:42:03 am »
Interesting comment by my (conservative) mother about prop 8: "why should we let them marry? they're lucky we're not stoning them to death, we've been tolerant enough. america no longer has the blessing of god"

So... are you in California or is this hitting national?

Let's redeem the blessing of God by killing our brothers! Forget the War on Drugs or the War Against Terrorism, we need the War Against Faggotism.

Yes on prop 8!

International?!
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Offline topaz~

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2008, 06:50:13 am »
California, no chance its going to become a national issue for several decades.

Offline leet_muffin

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2008, 11:55:04 am »
California, no chance its going to become a national issue for several decades.

I mean... has widespread knowledge of it hit the national level?

To be honest, I have no clue what propositions there are in any other state than California.
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Offline while1

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2008, 01:33:08 pm »
Same, I don't even live in California, yet I know more California propositions (2 to be exact) than I've ever known about in my own state of Virginia.

I tend to edit my topics and replies frequently.

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Offline MyndFyre

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2008, 06:52:16 pm »
For example, evolution can be proven - it can be observed directly - but one can't prove that it describes where we came from, and therefore that it precludes intelligent design.
Ah, stop right there!

Evolution on a micro level has been directly observed.  Evolution on a macro level (entire new orders, classes, phyla) has not been observed and arguably will be impossible to observe.  Consider what we know about that process in terms of genetics - a major differentiation between species is in terms of chromosomal count.  However, when we observe genetic mutations that result in extra chromosomes, such as trisomy-21, we get defects that would be prohibitive to advancement through natural selection, such as Down's Syndrome.  (additional chromosomal problems)

I'm not saying that evolution can't be observed - I just think that it's incorrect to say "evolution is a directly observable fact," because it's not really the whole story.
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Offline nslay

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2008, 08:18:20 pm »
For example, evolution can be proven - it can be observed directly - but one can't prove that it describes where we came from, and therefore that it precludes intelligent design.
Ah, stop right there!

Evolution on a micro level has been directly observed.  Evolution on a macro level (entire new orders, classes, phyla) has not been observed and arguably will be impossible to observe.  Consider what we know about that process in terms of genetics - a major differentiation between species is in terms of chromosomal count.  However, when we observe genetic mutations that result in extra chromosomes, such as trisomy-21, we get defects that would be prohibitive to advancement through natural selection, such as Down's Syndrome.  (additional chromosomal problems)

I'm not saying that evolution can't be observed - I just think that it's incorrect to say "evolution is a directly observable fact," because it's not really the whole story.
There is at least evidence to back up the theory of evolution.  Though, as with all scientific theories (not to be confused with mathematical theories), it is possible for it to be incorrect at some level.  Nonetheless, it is a theory that does not appear to be disputed by a majority of scientists.  What ticks me is that intelligent design advocates use social engineering tactics to make it appear as though the theory of evolution is disputed by scientists to justify intelligent design as a valid school topic, even though there is no basis or evidence for it.  I try to be tolerant respectful for the beliefs of others, but I am absolutely disgusted when others are manipulative to the establishment to force their beliefs on everyone.
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Offline Ender

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2008, 08:39:14 pm »
For example, evolution can be proven - it can be observed directly - but one can't prove that it describes where we came from, and therefore that it precludes intelligent design.
Ah, stop right there!

Evolution on a micro level has been directly observed.  Evolution on a macro level (entire new orders, classes, phyla) has not been observed and arguably will be impossible to observe.  Consider what we know about that process in terms of genetics - a major differentiation between species is in terms of chromosomal count.  However, when we observe genetic mutations that result in extra chromosomes, such as trisomy-21, we get defects that would be prohibitive to advancement through natural selection, such as Down's Syndrome.  (additional chromosomal problems)

I'm not saying that evolution can't be observed - I just think that it's incorrect to say "evolution is a directly observable fact," because it's not really the whole story.

Scientific theories can't be proven. Proof is reserved for axiomatic systems, like mathematics. As nslay says, there's always a chance that any established scientific theory could be wrong, e.g. the effect of gravity is just a perpetual coincidence.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2008, 02:35:34 pm by Ender »

Offline nslay

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2008, 08:39:21 pm »
Because telling people that the reason they want to kill themselves is that they don't believe in God -- or are "seperated" from God, whatever -- is a perfectly acceptable form of trying to convert people...

What's funny is that I hear this bullshit all the time from my parents. "I'm feeling down today." "And when was the last time you went to church?"

Organized religion is fucked up. Srsly.

That sucks. :(

My parents aren't that pushy, but coming out of the "agnostic" closet was a bit of a process, heh.

Yeah, I agree.  I don't know, maybe there are exceptions, but it certainly seems like the monster religions (Christianity, Islam, etc) can be dangerous/annoying.

You'll feel differently if you study the philosophy of religion. A lot of smart people are, or were, religious; you're just focusing on a minority. This same minority of dumb and despicable people exists among atheists, but they often just don't have as much political power -- they are effectively invisible. You may argue that it is the effect of the minority that matters, and that religion enables the misplacement of political power; to which I will respond: if you denounce religion for effecting religious wars, you may as well denounce science for producing the atomic bomb. It's rather hypocritical.

Aside from this, the antagonization of religion is a vain way for many to exalt themselves. People like to be in minorities: such antipathy can be very self-serving. I'm not saying this about you, but rather as something that applies well in general.

The only way to attack Christianity is to start at the base, Christian morality, and the context in which it was introduced. You can't take advantage of a primary source by decrying disconnected secondary sources. A tree's strength is not measured by bad branches. The same can be said for Islam, Judaism, and all other religions.

I know, because lots of smart people are/were religious justifies religion, right?  I think religion in general is frightening solely because of how it is assembled.  It is assembled from a set of basic beliefs which bare no resemblance to reality, yet are used to make claims about reality.  Even scarier is that people poison their minds and inhibit their ability to reason by accepting unfounded beliefs as absolute truth.  Math is constructed in a similar manner as religion (though quite different), it has a set of axioms, the analog of beliefs.  The only difference is that axioms are largely intuitive, self-evident, and even observable with pen and paper.  Yet, Math is can be made to describe and even simulate processes of reality with measurable certainty!  
Though, it is not necessarily true that unfounded beliefs are false.  Take for example the ZF axiom: There is an infinite set.  I happen to think the assumption is outrageous since nothing appears infinite in the observable universe.  But what is remarkable is that the development of theoretical tools that are used to accurately describe the world and develop technology rely heavily on said axiom.  Since these theoretical tools, which bare resemblance to reality, are a consequence of said axiom, it is probably safe to believe it is true.
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Offline Ender

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2008, 09:00:53 pm »
Does not "love thy neighbor" manifest itself in the real world, just as pure mathematics manifests itself in technology?

Every religion, at its core, is a set of moral and philosophical beliefs, which can indeed apply to and improve societies. Religion gives people a common judge, just like civil government, except without the practical limitations of sublunary authority. It brings people out of a state of nature; it establishes order. Of course, there were blips in this order, there were religious wars -- but ask yourself, how many more wars would have been fought had it not been for religion? How many civil wars would there have been, how many more rebellions, how many more murders, crimes, et cetera? Would we not have been mired in an interminable state of war?

You are claiming religions to comprise a set of silly, irrelevant, unfounded beliefs. As I have said before on these forums, you may as well dismiss 2,000 years of moral philosophy. Christianity, for example, was founded as a reaction to the prevailing master morality of the Romans at the time. It was founded from a moral basis, and a moral basis is not something silly or fantastical.

And by, "there are many smart people who are religious," I am 1) dispelling a common fallacy in dismissing religion and 2) hinting that it is not a wise idea to dismiss something without reading the foremost opposition formed by people who have devoted their lives to such a cause, e.g. religious philosophers and theologians.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 09:03:27 pm by Ender »

Offline nslay

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2008, 09:23:28 pm »
Does not "love thy neighbor" manifest itself in the real world, just as pure mathematics manifests itself in technology?

Every religion, at its core, is a set of moral and philosophical beliefs, which can indeed apply to and improve societies. Religion gives people a common judge, just like civil government, except without the practical limitations of sublunary authority. It brings people out of a state of nature; it establishes order. Of course, there were blips in this order, there were religious wars -- but ask yourself, how many more wars would have been fought had it not been for religion? How many civil wars would there have been, how many more rebellions, how many more murders, crimes, et cetera? Would we not have been mired in an interminable state of war?
Should morals be based on the historical past, ideals and principles presented by a belief system with no real basis?  Do you think that morality might be better discerned through thought and reason?  Do you happen to know the frequency of wars in the absence of religion?  Is there really a connection between religion and lower crime rate?  I heard, second hand, that education reduces crime rate...can the same be said of religion?

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You are claiming religions to comprise a set of silly, irrelevant, unfounded beliefs. As I have said before on these forums, you may as well dismiss 2,000 years of moral philosophy. Christianity, for example, was founded as a reaction to the prevailing master morality of the Romans at the time. It was founded from a moral basis, and a moral basis is not something silly or fantastical.
Well, isn't it?  Maybe we should dismiss it... science adapts, evolves and repairs itself, why can't moral philosophy do the same?  It also mystifies a man who had radical ideas for the time...a mere man, in the face of a weary Roman empire and a governor who wasn't about to dismiss a large crowd of angry Jews.
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And by, "there are many smart people who are religious," I am 1) dispelling a common fallacy in dismissing religion and 2) hinting that it is not a wise idea to dismiss something without reading the foremost opposition formed by people who have devoted their lives to such a cause, e.g. religious philosophers and theologians.
Okay, I agree to some extent.  But really, religion is a methodology to answer big questions about life and no two have the same answer.  In the mean time, LHC could potentially reveal secrets about the creation of the universe.  Religion has nothing to show for it...even in 2000 years.  Maybe religion is better suited to mythology?
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Offline nslay

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2008, 09:37:14 pm »
You know how everyone views Scientology, and related, as crazy cults?  Have you ever asked yourself why you view these specifically as crazy cults, and Christianity, Islam and others as venerable?  Maybe conditioning plays a role?  If you were an innocent child and you read a passage out of Exodus where God commands the Israelites to commit genocide on the Canaanites, would you really believe that this happened, or that this is representation of God?  Honestly!  Pick up Mother Goose obfuscated by the ancient language and translation and the radically different imaginations and perspectives of an ancient people...maybe it'll sound true too.
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Offline Ender

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2008, 11:46:15 pm »
First, what does it matter if morals are based on a 2,000 year old philosophy? Is not much of math based on a 2,000 year old Euclidean geometry? I do not see how the Ten Commandments are any less intuitive than Euclid's five postulates.

Indeed, the fact that a religion has withstood the test of time does mean something. It doesn't prove anything, but it does mean something, interpret it as you may. Also, you ask if I happen to know the frequency of wars in the absence of religion; all I have to say to this is, do you?

Second, of course moral philosophy can reinvent itself; else we wouldn't have "two thousand years" of moral philosophy. That's why for every Kierkegaard we have a Nietzsche. There's no monopoly on such matters. Christianity is but one religion, one philosophy; nowhere in Christian morality is there an explicit clause for intervening in other religions. It may express views on other religions, of the "wrongness" of other religions, but do not all philosophies, all scientific theories, all civil governments, tacitly declare all on the contrary to be false? Is that not a precondition of a conclusion? Is "thou shalt have no other gods before me" not the same negation of other religions as the theory of relativity is a negation of the ether? or as democracy is of monarchy? Does not the statement, a separable metric space has a countable dense subset, negate anything contrary to the field axioms?

A conclusion is a conclusion is a conclusion, is a negation of the contrary. If you do not find enough reasoning to support the conclusions of Christian morality, you should read how a religious philosopher or theologian supports it, like Kierkegaard for one.

Third, you laud the LHC for its potential, or more generally science for its accomplishments, and wonder how religion can measure up to that. But I ask you how many lives has religion saved, in the past 7,000 years of civilization? How much comfort and conviction and meaning does it give people? How many bonds does it make? How much order has it created? (Once again you must not focus on the bad branches; a religious war is but one branch of religion, just as an atomic bomb is but one branch of science.)

As an aside, I was not "conditioned".
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 11:59:09 pm by Ender »

Offline Rule

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2008, 12:17:47 am »
Ender, you are yet to answer the questions I asked you in our religious discussion.

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2008, 12:58:07 am »
First, what does it matter if morals are based on a 2,000 year old philosophy? Is not much of math based on a 2,000 year old Euclidean geometry? I do not see how the Ten Commandments are any less intuitive than Euclid's five postulates.
Though, 2000 year old science and math wouldn't take you far now, nor would the accompanying ancient perspective.  Math, science and perspective evolved into what we have now.  Though, in my opinion, math still has a ways to go.  We only have linear tools to work with.  As for the Ten Commandments, while I'm not atheist, there is nothing intuitive about the commandments related to God, idols and sabbath or any that are morally or culturally relative (e.g. adultery).  The God concept is not intuitive, and with respect to, say, adultery, the Bible itself even has examples of moral/cultural relativism (e.g. forefathers had concubines and multiple wives, Canaanite religion involved prostitution).

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Indeed, the fact that a religion has withstood the test of time does mean something. It doesn't prove anything, but it does mean something, interpret it as you may. Also, you ask if I happen to know the frequency of wars in the absence of religion; all I have to say to this is, do you?
I do not know, that is why I asked.  You seemed to implicate that the absence of religion would mean more war/crimes/etc... did you not?

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Second, of course moral philosophy can reinvent itself; else we wouldn't have "two thousand years" of moral philosophy. That's why for every Kierkegaard we have a Nietzsche. There's no monopoly on such matters. Christianity is but one religion, one philosophy; nowhere in Christian morality is there an explicit clause for intervening in other religions. It may express views on other religions, of the "wrongness" of other religions, but do not all philosophies, all scientific theories, all civil governments, tacitly declare all on the contrary to be false? Is that not a precondition of a conclusion? Is "thou shalt have no other gods before me" not the same negation of other religions as the theory of relativity is a negation of the ether? or as democracy is of monarchy? Does not the statement, a separable metric space has a countable dense subset, not negate any contrary field axioms?
Christianity seems to be quite vague in itself.  Many denominations tend to include doctrine not included in the Canon (e.g. stories of Lucifer in Catholicism).  In fact, the history of the Canon/Church is quite brutal, and frankly, scary.  To this day, I am at a loss of explanation as to why these particular books, among hundreds, were chosen.  Some of these books are thought to be outright shams (e.g. it is thought, through etymological evidence, that Timothy and Titus were not written by Paul).
A good scientist would not declare anything correct/incorrect without proper reasoning and experimentation.  However, ground truth is reality (i.e. experimental results), not ideals, principles and opinions.  Mathematicians, too, can only dictate correctness/incorrectness by what is dictated by theory and axioms.  There are known mathematical questions that are unanswerable (for example, cardinality).  Religion does not have the ability to objectively discern Truth, because it is not rooted in reality.  Many religions have come and gone with nothing to show but a cultural imprint.  What does this tell you about religion in general?  What makes, for example, Christianity so special when compared with the now dead Mithraism?  What is to prevent Christianity from the same fate as Mithraism or any other dead religion?  Test of time is meaningless...Zoroastrianism is the oldest, but its on its death bed with dwindling followers.

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A conclusion is a conclusion is a conclusion, is a negation of the contrary. If you do not find enough reasoning to support the conclusions of Christian morality, you should read how a religious philosopher or theologian supports it, like Kierkegaard for one.
Well, history seems to indicate that morality is relative...what makes Christian morality more correct than another morality?  I tend to think Christian morality causes psychological damage, especially, with respect to sex, marriage, and sexuality.  There are examples of urban legends purported to be Christian in origin regarding masturbation.  Though research has shown this to be normal human behavior. Research has also shown correlation between reduced risk of prostate cancer and masturbating...what does this tell you about baseless morals?  What about young men who psychologically torture themselves because they feel guilty for being a normal human being by committing sexual acts?  Christianity helps you accept yourself by teaching you that man is evil...nothing like paradoxes.

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Third, you laud the LHC for its potential, or more generally science for its accomplishments, and wonder how religion can measure up to that. But I ask you how many lives has religion saved, in the past 7,000 years of civilization? How much comfort and conviction and meaning does it give people? How many bonds does it make? How much order has it created? (Once again you must not focus on the bad branches; a religious war is but one branch of religion, just as an atomic bomb is but one branch of science.)
In the absence of religion, how many lives would be lost in the past 7000 years?  Why do you suppose people need to fabricate meaning to feel comfortable?  Humans are naturally social, wouldn't they bond regardless of religion?  Couldn't there be order without religion?  You seem to implicate things that cannot be known to support your argument...

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And as an aside, I was not "conditioned".
We're all conditioned man :)
This is why it is important to seek out the perspectives of others.
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Offline Ender

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2008, 09:08:48 pm »
[...] or are "seperated" [...]

separated*

I find it very odd that you correct my spelling errors here, and yet can't be bothered to capitalize anything and use 'lol' slang in IM, at least when speaking to me. I honestly don't care, I just find it weird. ;) Did I ever end up unblocking you, anyways? I honestly can't remember.

I need to, if I haven't. I actually kinda miss talking to you. :-O (Total and complete tangent.)

Ok.

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2008, 01:25:54 am »
I would love to respond to that post

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2008, 01:46:49 pm »
For example, evolution can be proven - it can be observed directly - but one can't prove that it describes where we came from, and therefore that it precludes intelligent design.
Ah, stop right there!

Evolution on a micro level has been directly observed.  Evolution on a macro level (entire new orders, classes, phyla) has not been observed and arguably will be impossible to observe.  Consider what we know about that process in terms of genetics - a major differentiation between species is in terms of chromosomal count.  However, when we observe genetic mutations that result in extra chromosomes, such as trisomy-21, we get defects that would be prohibitive to advancement through natural selection, such as Down's Syndrome.  (additional chromosomal problems)

I'm not saying that evolution can't be observed - I just think that it's incorrect to say "evolution is a directly observable fact," because it's not really the whole story.

Scientific theories can't be proven. Proof is reserved for axiomatic systems, like mathematics. As nslay says, there's always a chance that any established scientific theory could be wrong, e.g. the effect of gravity is just a perpetual coincidence.
I didn't once in my post say the word "proof" or any of its variants.

I'm not advocating one position or another.  I'm asking people to be intellectually honest when they claim evolution to be decidedly factual; on a small scale it's clear, but on a large scale it's not.
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Offline Ender

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2008, 02:36:39 pm »
For example, evolution can be proven - it can be observed directly - but one can't prove that it describes where we came from, and therefore that it precludes intelligent design.
Ah, stop right there!

Evolution on a micro level has been directly observed.  Evolution on a macro level (entire new orders, classes, phyla) has not been observed and arguably will be impossible to observe.  Consider what we know about that process in terms of genetics - a major differentiation between species is in terms of chromosomal count.  However, when we observe genetic mutations that result in extra chromosomes, such as trisomy-21, we get defects that would be prohibitive to advancement through natural selection, such as Down's Syndrome.  (additional chromosomal problems)

I'm not saying that evolution can't be observed - I just think that it's incorrect to say "evolution is a directly observable fact," because it's not really the whole story.

Scientific theories can't be proven. Proof is reserved for axiomatic systems, like mathematics. As nslay says, there's always a chance that any established scientific theory could be wrong, e.g. the effect of gravity is just a perpetual coincidence.
I didn't once in my post say the word "proof" or any of its variants.

I'm not advocating one position or another.  I'm asking people to be intellectually honest when they claim evolution to be decidedly factual; on a small scale it's clear, but on a large scale it's not.

I used your quote because it was the lazy thing to do.

Oh, and evolution is a fact, on the large scale as well as the small. It's called "geological records". The "Record of the Rocks" (H.G. Wells) corroborates evolution to the same degree of certainty as is held in any other fact we take for granted. Why are you so obsessed with directly observing something? Direct observation is but a pretension of the short-sighted, a despot of empirical study, a once-honest method that has been malformed by the malignant. Is the French Revolution not a historical occurrence, because no one alive today ever lived to observe it? Does gravity not exist, because there is no apparent impetus in action at a distance? We see the apple fall, yes, but we do not see what causes it to fall, we can only imagine, we can only reason, just as we can only reason with evolution.

So why does light matter so much to you? It is only one form of conveying information, it is only one form of evidence. Have you ever heard of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle? When we observe something, it changes. You place too much value on light as a means of information. It is but one form of evidence, just as a geological record is another, and it is absurd to think that any form of evidence, in sufficient quantity and uniform direction, is deficient. Any notion to the contrary is what we call pseudo-science, to euphemize the practice, or anti-science, to state it bluntly.

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2008, 04:00:38 pm »
Oh, and evolution is a fact, on the large scale as well as the small. It's called "geological records". The "Record of the Rocks" (H.G. Wells) corroborates evolution to the same degree of certainty as is held in any other fact we take for granted. Why are you so obsessed with directly observing something? Direct observation is but a pretension of the short-sighted, a despot of empirical study, a once-honest method that has been malformed by the malignant. Is the French Revolution not a historical occurrence, because no one alive today ever lived to observe it? Does gravity not exist, because there is no apparent impetus in action at a distance? We see the apple fall, yes, but we do not see what causes it to fall, we can only imagine, we can only reason, just as we can only reason with evolution.
You can call it a "despot of empirical study," but observation is the key to the scientific process, without which we might as well be blindfolded and throwing a dart.
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Offline Ender

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Re: is it you?
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2008, 09:43:11 pm »
I'm not saying observation is not key to the scientific process... I'm saying that direct observation, in the way that you misconstrue it, e.g. the light that arrives at your pupils, is not the only form of observation.

It does not matter that evolution has not been directly observed on a large scale. You put too much weight on "direct observation," and misconstrue it in the first place. Macro-evolution has been observed through a geological record, which is just as authentic as the human senses that you claim to comprise direct observation.

I don't want to hear how you made no claims about the authenticity of large scale evolution, since you did indeed make implications.