Grad School vs. Industry

[while1]

Ok I was pretty sure on graduate school just a semester ago... but now as I get closer to graduating (will graduate in the spring), I'm inching farther and farther away from grad school.

While I won't be in debt when I finish undergrad (thanks mom & dad), and I likely won't be paying for graduate school tuition and will be getting paid under an assistantship or fellowship, the state of the economy in the next 4 years has me worried.

Having never taken a business course and never really had much interest in the subject, do you think it would wiser to go to graduate school first or get a job and hold off?

The fear I have is that if I get a job and start making money, it'll be hard for me to drop everything and go back to school- once I have bills et al.  And getting a degree while working full-time just doesn't appeal to me.

I've already asked my professors for their opinions, but most of their answers have been predictable.

Your thoughts?

[rabbit]

It depends.  I know of a few companies that will hire you, and then pay for you to go to grad school a couple years down the road.  Personally, I plan to work for a while so I can save up for grad school tuition, and then get a decent enough job or something in school to pay for housing.  It's ultimately up to you (read: I don't know your major so I can't judge which option is a better career move).

[Sidoh]

As rabbit said, several companies will pay for you to get a masters.  I know the Lockheed Martin has a program like this (I can fill in more details if you're interested), and I'm sure other big ones do as well: Google, Microsoft, etc.  I know that some of the government agencies prefer that you work on your masters/PhD while you work for them.  Are you interested in math?  If you are, you should check out some of the internships that the agencies within the DoD offer.

The problem is, though, they expect you to finish it in a predetermined amount of time, and you're forced to take a min/max amount of credits each semester (they'll only pay for so much).  When I was talking with a professor and mentioned this, she recommended against it.  She said she knew people who were doing this while she was going to grad school and she said that it "really took away from their grad school experience."  I like being immersed in my academics, and I'm sure that this would take away from that.

Have you done any internships?  I really think this would help you make your decision.  After doing one last summer and talking with the aforementioned professor, I'm pretty well sure that I'm just going to skip the whole job thing until I'm done with grad school.

Good luck on this.  It's a hard decision.

[iago]

Personally, an undergrad degree is enough. Grad school is useful if you're teaching or working in an academic type environment (the same that uses complex algorithms ), but, at least for me, a graduate degree wouldn't make any difference to my career (a lot of people in this field don't even have an undergraduate degree).

[Chavo]

There are a lot of different paths you can choose, and none of them are unchangeable.  Choose the path that you think suits you best and if you don't like it, go back and try another (it's easy to keep your options open by applying to Grad School but still attending career fairs, getting your resume out there, and getting feedback about the industry through interviews).

For my specific discipline (Engineering), there are 4 major paths:

• Research (masters->doctorate->job with a research company or through a university grant)
• Teach (same as above except with some differences in study choices, a more diverse collegiate background is appreciated here)
• Do what you love (get out of school and find a job doing something you love and stick with it)
• Money (get in the industry as fast as possible, but stay in school - 2 choices here being to advance your education in your field or to work on an MBA or similar to try to get into management.  Keep in mind that work performance is always more important than education for advancement, but education can help quite a bit too)

[Ender]

Are you going for a masters or PhD?

If it's a PhD, it's less likely that a company will pay for it, IMO.

If it's a masters, it's more likely, but the disadvantage is that I imagine they get to meddle in your academic experience and exert some control over it.

If you can afford it yourself, I think (or rather, speculate) that it's better to go to grad school independent of a company. I believe it would make for a better experience, allow more freedom in your choices, and give you more control over your education. When you think about it, when a company pays for grad school, they have to be working in their own self-interest, so they're basically making an investment in you, which is a kind of repulsive idea to me. I don't want my education to be treated as a capitalist investment (Some may say that when colleges admit you, they are doing the same thing, but really I think the situation is quite different -- they don't restrict your education past general requirements, or stipulate that you major in X, Y, or Z.)

Of course, I have no experience in applying to grad schools, so take this post with a grain of salt

[Ender]

Also, you should take into consideration whether you're planning on going into industry or academia. It's fine if you don't know, but if there's the possibility of both then you should take that into consideration as well.

[while1]

Rabbit, *points to tat*, guess.

As rabbit said, several companies will pay for you to get a masters.  I know the Lockheed Martin has a program like this (I can fill in more details if you're interested), and I'm sure other big ones do as well: Google, Microsoft, etc.  I know that some of the government agencies prefer that you work on your masters/PhD while you work for them.  Are you interested in math?  If you are, you should check out some of the internships that the agencies within the DoD offer.

The problem is, though, they expect you to finish it in a predetermined amount of time, and you're forced to take a min/max amount of credits each semester (they'll only pay for so much).  When I was talking with a professor and mentioned this, she recommended against it.  She said she knew people who were doing this while she was going to grad school and she said that it "really took away from their grad school experience."  I like being immersed in my academics, and I'm sure that this would take away from that.

Have you done any internships?  I really think this would help you make your decision.  After doing one last summer and talking with the aforementioned professor, I'm pretty well sure that I'm just going to skip the whole job thing until I'm done with grad school.

Good luck on this.  It's a hard decision.

I've done two separate 10-week REU (Research Experience for Undergraduates) programs the past two summers (one at Texas A&M and one at Notre Dame).  And I'm currently doing a paid internship with my university's IT department developing a web-based risk management utility for them, as well as developed a web-based call logging system last semester for them (unpaid) but am now getting paid to maintain this semester.  Albeit, my internship experience is nothing comparable to working with a real company in industry.

Graduate school and working does not work well with me.  I'd prefer to focus on one at a time, so that I can give my 100% to one instead of trying to share it between the two.  That, and I wouldn't think I'd get as much out of the experience like you said.

Are you going for a masters or PhD?

If it's a PhD, it's less likely that a company will pay for it, IMO.

If it's a masters, it's more likely, but the disadvantage is that I imagine they get to meddle in your academic experience and exert some control over it.

If you can afford it yourself, I think (or rather, speculate) that it's better to go to grad school independent of a company. I believe it would make for a better experience, allow more freedom in your choices, and give you more control over your education. When you think about it, when a company pays for grad school, they have to be working in their own self-interest, so they're basically making an investment in you, which is a kind of repulsive idea to me. I don't want my education to be treated as a capitalist investment (Some may say that when colleges admit you, they are doing the same thing, but really I think the situation is quite different -- they don't restrict your education past general requirements, or stipulate that you major in X, Y, or Z.)

Of course, I have no experience in applying to grad schools, so take this post with a grain of salt

I'm applying to PhD programs.  Assuming I complete said PhD programs, I will have earned my masters after the first 2-3 years and then the remaining years will be done doing research, dissertation, etc.  So I'd finish with both a masters and doctorate.

For me, I eventually would like to teach on the post-secondary level at a more teaching-oriented institution like my alma mater.  But I'm also interested in R&D in industry.  Doing research in academia isn't my style though.


Like Chavo suggested, it won't be horrible which ever path I take.  But I'd like to get it right the first time.

But I guess what really is starting to make me question my previous inclination to graduate school is how all the other factors in my life will be affected by the decision I make.  The bigger picture.  Up to this point, my life decisions have been made based off the goal of being able to find and get a job so that I can provide for a family someday.  When I graduate with my bachelor's I will have met this goal, and it's a matter of how much more money can I provide, which to me will lead me down a slippery slope if I put too much significance on this goal.

Eh.  I'm keeping my options open and will be applying to both grad skools and jobs.  But I will have to make a decision sooner or later.

[dark_drake]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I've been told that unless you're being paid to go to graduate school, you just don't go.

[Rule]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I've been told that unless you're being paid to go to graduate school, you just don't go.

Sounds overly simplistic?

[dark_drake]

Sounds overly simplistic?

No, not really.

[Towelie]

As rabbit said, several companies will pay for you to get a masters.  I know the Lockheed Martin has a program like this (I can fill in more details if you're interested), and I'm sure other big ones do as well: Google, Microsoft, etc.  I know that some of the government agencies prefer that you work on your masters/PhD while you work for them.  Are you interested in math?  If you are, you should check out some of the internships that the agencies within the DoD offer.

The problem is, though, they expect you to finish it in a predetermined amount of time, and you're forced to take a min/max amount of credits each semester (they'll only pay for so much).  When I was talking with a professor and mentioned this, she recommended against it.  She said she knew people who were doing this while she was going to grad school and she said that it "really took away from their grad school experience."  I like being immersed in my academics, and I'm sure that this would take away from that.

I basically have an extreme form of this

[Rule]

Sounds overly simplistic?

No, not really.

Um yeah, really.   You'd have to be a complete tool to follow black and white advice like that, without any argument whatsoever.  It kind of depends on your reason for going to grad school, your personal finances, where you are applying, what you are studying, etc.

[dark_drake]

Sounds overly simplistic?

No, not really.

Um yeah, really.   You'd have to be a complete tool to follow black and white advice like that, without any argument whatsoever.  It kind of depends on your reason for going to grad school, your personal finances, where you are applying, what you are studying, etc.

You're not guaranteed a higher paying job after grad school. In fact, a graduate degree can disqualify you from several jobs ("sorry, you're overqualified"). If you just love to learn, you can do that on your own. However, one thing you are guaranteed if you are paying for graduate school is a massive debt. Of course, if you're independently wealthy, finances don't matter. But I'm going to assume that nearly all graduate students are not.

In my field, graduate school is training for research. Why should a person be charged to learn his/her job skills? EDIT: I realize this could be taken as, "Oh wow, he just wants everything for free." Or college education should be free. However, I see a huge difference between undergraduate and graduate education. Bad analogy incoming, but here goes. In construction, a worker typically has to purchase his own tools. However, he will be trained on the job, as part of the job. Undergraduate = purchasing the tools. Graduate = being trained for your job.

[truste1]

I'd say Graduate school just because your school isn't really one of the schools companies are recruiting from.

[Sidoh]

I've done two separate 10-week REU (Research Experience for Undergraduates) programs the past two summers (one at Texas A&M and one at Notre Dame).  And I'm currently doing a paid internship with my university's IT department developing a web-based risk management utility for them, as well as developed a web-based call logging system last semester for them (unpaid) but am now getting paid to maintain this semester.  Albeit, my internship experience is nothing comparable to working with a real company in industry.

Graduate school and working does not work well with me.  I'd prefer to focus on one at a time, so that I can give my 100% to one instead of trying to share it between the two.  That, and I wouldn't think I'd get as much out of the experience like you said.

If you feel that the importance of this decision is paramount, I think it's essential that you do an internship with a company in the industry you're interested in working.  If you're interested in Lockheed Martin (there's a LOT of breath in what they do), I can probably give you some details that will help you get started.

As Chavo touched on, I think a really cool option is research in industry.  This includes working at places like NASA, NSA/CIA/DoD, etc.  I think this is as close as you'll get to "the best of both worlds".   Almost all of these companies/agencies have internship programs.  The deadline for the NSA has passed, I think, but the NASA applications are open until January.  If you're interested, I strongly encourage you to apply.  I don't think you'll be able to make a reasonable decision until you know how much you like working compared to studying.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I've been told that unless you're being paid to go to graduate school, you just don't go.

idk, I don't think that's necessarily true.  I know that LM hires on people with masters degrees about two promotions ahead of those without 'em.  They also give you an "Instant" raise/bonus if you get your masters while working for them.

I also agree with Rule -- I don't think it's very good advice in general.  If you're really enthralled by the academic aspects of the subject you're studying, grad school will probably be more enjoyable than working.

You're not guaranteed a higher paying job after grad school. In fact, a graduate degree can disqualify you from several jobs ("sorry, you're overqualified"). If you just love to learn, you can do that on your own. However, one thing you are guaranteed if you are paying for graduate school is a massive debt. Of course, if you're independently wealthy, finances don't matter. But I'm going to assume that nearly all graduate students are not.

In my field, graduate school is training for research. Why should a person be charged to learn his/her job skills?

Doesn't really sound like that's how a masters in CS is viewed.  Certainly you'd be "overqualified" for some jobs, but it's definitely not the case in general.  Microsoft, Google, et al. have positions they advertise that are specifically geared toward people who have earned a masters.

I'd say Graduate school just because your school isn't really one of the schools companies are recruiting from.

I'm not sure this is useful advise.  If you're interested in a company and you're an outstanding student, the fact that they don't visit your university is nearly irrelevant.   The DoD doesn't visit my school, but my friend applied last year and landed an internship for the past summer pretty quickly.

Personally, an undergrad degree is enough. Grad school is useful if you're teaching or working in an academic type environment (the same that uses complex algorithms ), but, at least for me, a graduate degree wouldn't make any difference to my career (a lot of people in this field don't even have an undergraduate degree).

Jobs geared toward people who have post-graduate education are by no means necessarily academic.  I think the majority of the people I worked with over the summer either had a masters, were currently attending grad school, or intended to do so in the near future.

I don't think I agree with your assessment of how useful more advanced topics are in general.

[while1]

I'd say Graduate school just because your school isn't really one of the schools companies are recruiting from.

Sure, while my resume might not get a second glance from Microsoft or Google because of my school, by no means does that mean graduates from my school can't find good companies that will hire them.  My former roommate that graduate last year has a good job with Booze Allen, one of Fortune magazine's top 100 companies to work for, doing contracting work for the FBI.  Finding a good job and good company that will hire me is the least of my problems.

If you feel that the importance of this decision is paramount, I think it's essential that you do an internship with a company in the industry you're interested in working.  If you're interested in Lockheed Martin (there's a LOT of breath in what they do), I can probably give you some details that will help you get started.

As Chavo touched on, I think a really cool option is research in industry.  This includes working at places like NASA, NSA/CIA/DoD, etc.  I think this is as close as you'll get to "the best of both worlds".   Almost all of these companies/agencies have internship programs.  The deadline for the NSA has passed, I think, but the NASA applications are open until January.  If you're interested, I strongly encourage you to apply.  I don't think you'll be able to make a reasonable decision until you know how much you like working compared to studying.

I would if it wasn't too late.  I graduate in May.  However, I will be applying to the LARS (NASA Langley) program to land a source of income for the summer in case I do choose grad school, since I will likely be hard pressed to find a company that would give me an internship after I've already graduated.

[iago]

Personally, an undergrad degree is enough. Grad school is useful if you're teaching or working in an academic type environment (the same that uses complex algorithms ), but, at least for me, a graduate degree wouldn't make any difference to my career (a lot of people in this field don't even have an undergraduate degree).

Jobs geared toward people who have post-graduate education are by no means necessarily academic.  I think the majority of the people I worked with over the summer either had a masters, were currently attending grad school, or intended to do so in the near future.

I don't think I agree with your assessment of how useful more advanced topics are in general.

Well, keep in mind that I work in a funny field. In IT Security, academics write all kinds of great papers and proofs that have absolutely no relevance in the real world, while people who aren't from academic backgrounds (often who have never taken a class) write all kinds of great papers and do tons of research that directly applies.

There's a huge disconnected between academics/non-academics in IT Security. Nobody at the place I work has a degree, for example, and they're considered at the top of their game.

I mostly wanted to build a post around making fun of the complex arguments thing

[Sidoh]

I would if it wasn't too late.  I graduate in May.  However, I will be applying to the LARS (NASA Langley) program to land a source of income for the summer in case I do choose grad school, since I will likely be hard pressed to find a company that would give me an internship after I've already graduated.

Ah, cool.  Inernships definitely aren't just for undergraduates, though.  The DoD position my friend worked in offered housing where you roomed with three other people working on your team.  He said one was a PhD candidate, one had a masters and another was writing his master's thesis.

Personally, an undergrad degree is enough. Grad school is useful if you're teaching or working in an academic type environment (the same that uses complex algorithms ), but, at least for me, a graduate degree wouldn't make any difference to my career (a lot of people in this field don't even have an undergraduate degree).

Jobs geared toward people who have post-graduate education are by no means necessarily academic.  I think the majority of the people I worked with over the summer either had a masters, were currently attending grad school, or intended to do so in the near future.

I don't think I agree with your assessment of how useful more advanced topics are in general.

Well, keep in mind that I work in a funny field. In IT Security, academics write all kinds of great papers and proofs that have absolutely no relevance in the real world, while people who aren't from academic backgrounds (often who have never taken a class) write all kinds of great papers and do tons of research that directly applies.

There's a huge disconnected between academics/non-academics in IT Security. Nobody at the place I work has a degree, for example, and they're considered at the top of their game.

I mostly wanted to build a post around making fun of the complex arguments thing

Heh, and that's cool, but I know for a fact that the company I worked for is likely to throw your application out the window if you don't have or aren't actively pursuing a degree.

Some fields of IT security are dominated by academics though, right?!  What about cryptography?  It seems like most of the prominent cryptographic algorithms were developed by people who have PhDs.

Having said that, I definitely agree with you on the "usually removed from relevance to the real world", having read a few and seen presentations on the myself.  Sometimes they seem pretty silly.

[iago]

Heh, and that's cool, but I know for a fact that the company I worked for is likely to throw your application out the window if you don't have or aren't actively pursuing a degree.

Some fields of IT security are dominated by academics though, right?!  What about cryptography?  It seems like most of the prominent cryptographic algorithms were developed by people who have PhDs.

Having said that, I definitely agree with you on the "usually removed from relevance to the real world", having read a few and seen presentations on the myself.  Sometimes they seem pretty silly.

Cryptography isn't really security, I consider it math. But you're right, that's definitely full of academics.

And yeah, the reason I like security is because it combines so many things. It doesn't require a degree or education, but it requires a certain personality.

[zorm]

Well, keep in mind that I work in a funny field. In IT Security, academics write all kinds of great papers and proofs that have absolutely no relevance in the real world, while people who aren't from academic backgrounds (often who have never taken a class) write all kinds of great papers and do tons of research that directly applies.

There's a huge disconnected between academics/non-academics in IT Security. Nobody at the place I work has a degree, for example, and they're considered at the top of their game.

I mostly wanted to build a post around making fun of the complex arguments thing

Aren't these types of jobs typically referred to as grunt work? I'm not trying to insult you/say this is absolutely the case but generally when you have a job where a degree is not required its because the job is more application of specific skills than thinking. I can definitely see IT Security being that way, I'd care more that a person knows how to properly administrate a firewall than that they know the theory behind how all the circuits inside the shiny box work. See McDonalds for another case in point..

[iago]

Aren't these types of jobs typically referred to as grunt work? I'm not trying to insult you/say this is absolutely the case but generally when you have a job where a degree is not required its because the job is more application of specific skills than thinking. I can definitely see IT Security being that way, I'd care more that a person knows how to properly administrate a firewall than that they know the theory behind how all the circuits inside the shiny box work. See McDonalds for another case in point..

You may be right, in a sense, but I think referring to it as "grunt work" is oversimplification.

To take one example, writing a reliable exploit for a kernel vulnerability on a modern OS is something that is extremely difficult and that takes a broad base of applied knowledge. However, it isn't the kind of thing you're going to learn in academia, or anywhere else, and it's a skill that very few people in the world can claim to have.

Another one is the ability to penetrate a well-defended network without being detected. It isn't something that an academic will learn, it's something that can only be done (well) through years of experience.

The point is, the field I'm in requires a great deal of research (vulnerability exploitation) and skill (penetration testing), neither of which you'll learn from academia. It's a whole different system, in a way.