Author Topic: Why McDonald's fries taste so good  (Read 4684 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline iago

  • Leader
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17914
  • Fnord.
    • View Profile
    • SkullSecurity
Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« on: November 22, 2008, 08:46:01 pm »
This is a story about artificial flavours for products:
http://www.rense.com/general7/whyy.htm

It's interesting that many manufactured/processed foods have no real flavour of their own, and all the flavour comes from the added chemicals. I try my best to eat unprocessed/organic food, when possible, to avoid this stuff, but even those aren't immune.

This is one thing that pisses me off as a vegan:
Quote
The federal Food and Drug Administration does not require companies to disclose the ingredients of their color or flavor additives so long as all the chemicals in them are considered by the agency to be GRAS ("generally recognized as safe").
What it basically means is that anything with "natural flavour" or "artificial flavour" on the list of ingredients may not be vegan (or vegetarian).

And this is kind of an eye opener:
Quote
A typical artificial strawberry flavor, like the kind found in a Burger King strawberry milk shake, contains the following ingredients: amyl acetate, amyl butyrate, amyl valerate, anethol, anisyl formate, benzyl acetate, benzyl isobutyrate, butyric acid, cinnamyl isobutyrate, cinnamyl valerate, cognac essential oil, diacetyl, dipropyl ketone, ethyl acetate, ethyl amyl ketone, ethyl butyrate, ethyl cinnamate, ethyl heptanoate, ethyl heptylate, ethyl lactate, ethyl methylphenylglycidate, ethyl nitrate, ethyl propionate, ethyl valerate, heliotropin, hydroxyphenyl-2-butanone (10 percent solution in alcohol), a-ionone, isobutyl anthranilate, isobutyl butyrate, lemon essential oil, maltol, 4-methylacetophenone, methyl anthranilate, methyl benzoate, methyl cinnamate, methyl heptine carbonate, methyl naphthyl ketone, methyl salicylate, mint essential oil, neroli essential oil, nerolin, neryl isobutyrate, orris butter, phenethyl alcohol, rose, rum ether, g-undecalactone, vanillin, and solvent.

The distinction between a "natural flavour" and a "artificial flavour" is discussed, as well:
Quote
"A natural flavor," says Terry Acree, a professor of food science at Cornell University, "is a flavor that's been derived with an out-of-date technology." Natural flavors and artificial flavors sometimes contain exactly the same chemicals, produced through different methods. Amyl acetate, for example, provides the dominant note of banana flavor. When it is distilled from bananas with a solvent, amyl acetate is a natural flavor. When it is produced by mixing vinegar with amyl alcohol and adding sulfuric acid as a catalyst, amyl acetate is an artificial flavor. Either way it smells and tastes the same.

Toward the end, they present the whole thing in a very positive light, talking about how the different combinations of flavours is very poetic, and it's almost like composing music: the flavours need to be combined to have a strong "high note" with an undertone and a levelling off. A funny way of thinking about it, really.

Oh, and here's a pleasant thought:
Quote
In France, for example, fries are sometimes cooked in duck fat or horse tallow.
And in the US, there is an unnamed animal source in their french fries as well.

Not to mention:
Quote
One of the most widely used color additives -- whose presence is often hidden by the phrase "color added" -- violates a number of religious dietary restrictions, may cause allergic reactions in susceptible people, and comes from an unusual source. Cochineal extract (also known as carmine or carminic acid) is made from the desiccated bodies of female Dactylopius coccus Costa, a small insect harvested mainly in Peru and the Canary Islands.

Anyway, it's a really interesting (and somewhat scary) article. :)

Offline CrAz3D

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10184
    • View Profile
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2008, 09:25:32 pm »
DRTFA...


They taste good???

Offline iago

  • Leader
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17914
  • Fnord.
    • View Profile
    • SkullSecurity
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2008, 09:40:49 pm »
DRTFA...


They taste good???
The article actually has very little to do with McDonalds fries (as you can probably tell by my excerpts)

Offline d&q

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1427
  • I'm here.
    • View Profile
    • Site
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2008, 05:54:01 am »
I agree with you about the disclosure--we should know exactly what's in our food. However, I've always thought it was bullshit how they differentiate between artificial and natural flavorings. Like the example you quoted:

Quote
"A natural flavor," says Terry Acree, a professor of food science at Cornell University, "is a flavor that's been derived with an out-of-date technology." Natural flavors and artificial flavors sometimes contain exactly the same chemicals, produced through different methods. Amyl acetate, for example, provides the dominant note of banana flavor. When it is distilled from bananas with a solvent, amyl acetate is a natural flavor. When it is produced by mixing vinegar with amyl alcohol and adding sulfuric acid as a catalyst, amyl acetate is an artificial flavor. Either way it smells and tastes the same.

In the end they contain the exact same thing. There's a large price difference between organic and artificial flavorings at the supermarket were I usually shop, and it pisses me off that we're basically scamming people into buying things $2+ expensive without any chemically significant difference. There's also a price discrepancy between acetic acid and vinegar! Wtf?
The writ of the founders must endure.

Offline iago

  • Leader
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17914
  • Fnord.
    • View Profile
    • SkullSecurity
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2008, 08:22:12 am »
In the end they contain the exact same thing. There's a large price difference between organic and artificial flavorings at the supermarket were I usually shop, and it pisses me off that we're basically scamming people into buying things $2+ expensive without any chemically significant difference. There's also a price discrepancy between acetic acid and vinegar! Wtf?
My thought about that is that there may still be differences:
* Impurities/contaminants
* Isomers
* Concentrations

So maybe it does make a difference. Can't say for sure, though.

Offline Camel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1703
    • View Profile
    • BNU Bot
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2008, 12:23:14 pm »
Right; the active ingredient in vinegar is acetic acid. It needn't be pure. As with most things, the FDA probably has some definition of what the purity has to be to be called vinegar, but the bottle need not disclose that so long as it meets the definition the FDA set. If you were to buy acetic acid, it would most likely have to specify on the bottle how pure it is.

<Camel> i said what what
<Blaze> in the butt
<Camel> you want to do it in my butt?
<Blaze> in my butt
<Camel> let's do it in the butt
<Blaze> Okay!

Offline dark_drake

  • Mufasa was 10x the lion Simba was.
  • x86
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2440
  • Dun dun dun
    • View Profile
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2008, 02:42:32 pm »
I heard that years ago McDonald's used to use some beef fat to cook their fries, and that's why they were delicious.
errr... something like that...

Offline Camel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1703
    • View Profile
    • BNU Bot
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2008, 02:57:37 pm »
I heard that years ago McDonald's used to use some beef fat to cook their fries, and that's why they were delicious.
That does sound pretty delicious. I think bacon fat would be even better, though.

<Camel> i said what what
<Blaze> in the butt
<Camel> you want to do it in my butt?
<Blaze> in my butt
<Camel> let's do it in the butt
<Blaze> Okay!

Offline iago

  • Leader
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17914
  • Fnord.
    • View Profile
    • SkullSecurity
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2008, 03:35:23 pm »
I heard that years ago McDonald's used to use some beef fat to cook their fries, and that's why they were delicious.
That's in like the first couple paragraphs of that story.

They used to use beef tallow, but don't anymore; however, what they do use is pure oil with artificial flavour that involves "ingredients from an animal source".

In some parts of the world, horse is used; it is unknown what McDonalds uses.

Offline dark_drake

  • Mufasa was 10x the lion Simba was.
  • x86
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2440
  • Dun dun dun
    • View Profile
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2008, 04:10:04 pm »
That's in like the first couple paragraphs of that story.

They used to use beef tallow, but don't anymore; however, what they do use is pure oil with artificial flavour that involves "ingredients from an animal source".

In some parts of the world, horse is used; it is unknown what McDonalds uses.
I didn't read your meat-bashing article.  :P
errr... something like that...

Offline Sidoh

  • x86
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17634
  • MHNATY ~~~~~
    • View Profile
    • sidoh
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2008, 04:12:33 pm »
In some parts of the world, horse is used; it is unknown what McDonalds uses.

Soylent Green. :O

Offline iago

  • Leader
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17914
  • Fnord.
    • View Profile
    • SkullSecurity
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2008, 04:28:09 pm »
That's in like the first couple paragraphs of that story.

They used to use beef tallow, but don't anymore; however, what they do use is pure oil with artificial flavour that involves "ingredients from an animal source".

In some parts of the world, horse is used; it is unknown what McDonalds uses.
I didn't read your meat-bashing article.  :P
It's not meat-bashing in the least.

Offline dark_drake

  • Mufasa was 10x the lion Simba was.
  • x86
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2440
  • Dun dun dun
    • View Profile
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2008, 04:54:13 pm »
It's not meat-bashing in the least.
That's exactly what a meat-basher would say to lure me into a trap.
errr... something like that...

Offline d&q

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1427
  • I'm here.
    • View Profile
    • Site
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2008, 12:10:45 am »
In the end they contain the exact same thing. There's a large price difference between organic and artificial flavorings at the supermarket were I usually shop, and it pisses me off that we're basically scamming people into buying things $2+ expensive without any chemically significant difference. There's also a price discrepancy between acetic acid and vinegar! Wtf?
My thought about that is that there may still be differences:
* Impurities/contaminants
* Isomers
* Concentrations

So maybe it does make a difference. Can't say for sure, though.


I'm not too knowledgeable about organic products, but I definitely remember seeing some products being advertised as organic although they were from concentrate. On that note, what are the problems with food being from concentrate?

From what I remember, isomers are only a problem in hydrogenation of fats, because that leads to trans-fat, which is said to be unhealthy. I think that problem is pretty much addressed however, since every product ever now advertises "0% trans fat". As far as racemic mixtures go, I seriously don't think there are any in the food industry, but I cannot be certain.

Right; the active ingredient in vinegar is acetic acid. It needn't be pure. As with most things, the FDA probably has some definition of what the purity has to be to be called vinegar, but the bottle need not disclose that so long as it meets the definition the FDA set. If you were to buy acetic acid, it would most likely have to specify on the bottle how pure it is.

With that statement, are you implying that acetic acid is more expensive because it has a higher standard of purity? If so, I should explain that where I live, vinegar is more expensive than acetic acid. No clue why.
The writ of the founders must endure.

Offline Camel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1703
    • View Profile
    • BNU Bot
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2008, 01:41:08 am »
Trans-fats were outlawed from grocercy stores here. In New York, restaurants can't cook with products that contain trans fats.

With that statement, are you implying that acetic acid is more expensive because it has a higher standard of purity? If so, I should explain that where I live, vinegar is more expensive than acetic acid. No clue why.

No - I'm saying that the FDA defines a range of purities that acetic acid must be in for it to legally be called "vinegar." If it's out of that range, it's not vinegar - even if it is to you and me.

<Camel> i said what what
<Blaze> in the butt
<Camel> you want to do it in my butt?
<Blaze> in my butt
<Camel> let's do it in the butt
<Blaze> Okay!

Offline iago

  • Leader
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17914
  • Fnord.
    • View Profile
    • SkullSecurity
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2008, 08:24:52 am »
I'm not too knowledgeable about organic products, but I definitely remember seeing some products being advertised as organic although they were from concentrate. On that note, what are the problems with food being from concentrate?
It doesn't taste as good? :)

But really, I'm not sure. When I said "concentrate", I was talking about like 1% acetic acid vs 5% acetic acid or whatever.

From what I remember, isomers are only a problem in hydrogenation of fats, because that leads to trans-fat, which is said to be unhealthy. I think that problem is pretty much addressed however, since every product ever now advertises "0% trans fat". As far as racemic mixtures go, I seriously don't think there are any in the food industry, but I cannot be certain.
From what I've heard, and I haven't done any research so this could be wrong, artificial vitamin D and natural vitamin D are isomers -- they have the same chemical formula, but react differently in the body. It's possible that, say, artificially derived bananana flavour and natural bananana flavour, despite being the same chemical, react differently in the body. I'm not saying that's right, I'm saying it's a possibility.

Offline d&q

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1427
  • I'm here.
    • View Profile
    • Site
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2008, 10:20:48 am »
From what I remember, isomers are only a problem in hydrogenation of fats, because that leads to trans-fat, which is said to be unhealthy. I think that problem is pretty much addressed however, since every product ever now advertises "0% trans fat". As far as racemic mixtures go, I seriously don't think there are any in the food industry, but I cannot be certain.

From what I've heard, and I haven't done any research so this could be wrong, artificial vitamin D and natural vitamin D are isomers -- they have the same chemical formula, but react differently in the body. It's possible that, say, artificially derived bananana flavour and natural bananana flavour, despite being the same chemical, react differently in the body. I'm not saying that's right, I'm saying it's a possibility.

I couldn't find any evidence of synthesized vitamin D - AFAIK our vitamin D intake consists mainly of the isolated vitamin or fortified food. And looking at the structure of isoamyl acetate (banana oil), I don't think a stereoisomer is possible. Any structural isomers wouldn't be called banana oil. My basic point is that a lot of "non-organic" products are being passed off as unhealthy without any scientific evidence. The principal consequence is that some (expensive) foods become unfairly attractive to the clueless consumer. This could all be occurring in my mind though  :P. It's good that you're wary of what you eat though, I don't think I could say the same.
The writ of the founders must endure.

Offline iago

  • Leader
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17914
  • Fnord.
    • View Profile
    • SkullSecurity
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2008, 10:44:46 am »
I couldn't find any evidence of synthesized vitamin D - AFAIK our vitamin D intake consists mainly of the isolated vitamin or fortified food. And looking at the structure of isoamyl acetate (banana oil), I don't think a stereoisomer is possible. Any structural isomers wouldn't be called banana oil. My basic point is that a lot of "non-organic" products are being passed off as unhealthy without any scientific evidence. The principal consequence is that some (expensive) foods become unfairly attractive to the clueless consumer. This could all be occurring in my mind though  :P. It's good that you're wary of what you eat though, I don't think I could say the same.
You could be right, I don't know much about chemistry stuff. Or maybe it's a big conspiracy. Both good!

I think the important part about organic food is that it is [supposed to be] grown and processed in stricter ways. Of course, depending on who classifies it as organic and what the company itself is like, it's hard to say. A lot of "organic food" companies are owned by the big corporations, so you're likely getting the borderline "we can just barely call this organic" stuff.

What it comes down to is reading labels and researching companies. When possible, I buy from small/local companies that get their food straight from local farms. You're getting the freshest food that way, and you're supporting the local economy, too.

But yeah, I try to avoid artificial (and any non-identified) flavour/colour in food, because I hate the idea of eating something that I can't possibly research. At least when I see, say, "concentrated pear juice" on a label, I know what I'm getting.

Offline Camel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1703
    • View Profile
    • BNU Bot
Re: Why McDonald's fries taste so good
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2008, 01:46:26 pm »
I tend to feel better when I'm eating organic food than when I'm not.


Then again, there's also a strong correlation between the amount of money I have and the amount of organic food I have, so it may be that as well.

<Camel> i said what what
<Blaze> in the butt
<Camel> you want to do it in my butt?
<Blaze> in my butt
<Camel> let's do it in the butt
<Blaze> Okay!