Are vegan restaurants actually vegan?

[iago]

http://www.quarrygirl.com/2009/06/28/undercover-investigation-of-la-area-vegan-restaurants/

Turns out in LA, 7 / 17 aren't. Eww?

This kinda reminds me of when McDonalds revealed that their fries, despite being fried in vegetable oil, contain an unnamed animal product in their flavouring making them non-vegetarian.

Realistically, unless I can get a complete ingredient list (without the 'natural flavours' or 'colours' bullshit), I can't be sure of anything I eat. That includes products off the shelves, and even products in the produce section (which are frequently covered with non-vegan wax or infused with non-vegetarian colours).

While I'm on a soapbox, produce companies should be required to list which pesticides/fertilizers they use when you buy food. I read (sorry, don't have source handy) that there can be as many as 55 different pesticides on the food you buy, many of which are banned in some countries because they are associated with cancer/birth defects/etc. And we're eating them without even *knowing* the risk, which is the most important part to me. If I know the risk and do something, I'm willing to accept the consequences. If I don't know the risk and do something, I'm pretty upset.

So yeah, there you go.

[Armin]

Good find, interesting read. It certainly satisfied the conspiracy nut in me.

[while1]

lulz.  I'll be sure never to marry a vegan because I think I'd go insane having to accommodate her pickiness when we go out to eat, shopping, cooking meals, etc.  God.  She'd have to give really great head and a have a really great personality for me to put up with her failure to utilize the incisors evolution gave her. 


Shit I forgot.  She can't swallow either.

[Rule]

lulz.  I'll be sure never to marry a vegan because I think I'd go insane having to accommodate her pickiness when we go out to eat, shopping, cooking meals, etc.  God.  She'd have to give really great head and a have a really great personality for me to put up with her failure to utilize the incisors evolution gave her. 


Shit I forgot.  She can't swallow either.

You're assuming that she'd want to marry you. 

However, I do think veganism can easily become an obsessive disorder.  In some cases, you do have to ask yourself "how important is it?".  (Not the general idea, but some specific practices).

[iago]

Vegans generally aren't "picky" -- you really can't be. I'll eat anything, as long as there was no suffering or killing involved.

As for restaurants, I don't think that'll be an issue. Some people are boring and go to all the "mainstream" places, which I never liked to begin with. Other people are interesting and go to interesting places, like foreign foods and locally run instead of chains. Most places here that aren't chains are very accommodating. Generally, everybody is happy when we go to one of the local places.

In any case, I very much doubt a vegan would want to be with somebody with your attitude, so I doubt you'll have to worry [Rule covered that point while I was typing]

And incidentally, incisors are common in herbivores -- they aren't designed for cutting meat.

[iago]

However, I do think veganism can easily become an obsessive disorder.  In some cases, you do have to ask yourself "how important is it?".  (Not the general idea, but some specific practices).

I agree -- you have to draw the line at some point. The definitely of vegan isn't absolute, it's something like, "As much as is practical and possible, live a lifestyle that minimizes unnecessary suffering".

If you are always looking down when you're walking to make sure you aren't stepping on ants, you're going too far.

Also, if you worry about things like this:

"Bone char is not used at Taber’s sugar beet factory or at Montreal’s cane refinery. Bone char is only used at the Vancouver cane refinery. All products under the Lantic Trademark are free of bone char. For the products under the Rogers Trademark, all Taber sugar beet products are also free of bone char. In order to differentiate the Rogers Taber beet products from the Vancouver cane products, you can verify the inked-jet code printed on the product. Products with the code starting with the letter “A” are from Taber, Alberta, while products with the code starting with the letter “B” are from Vancouver, British Columbia."

I guess the whole question is: where do you draw the line?

[Rule]

Yeah, at some point the effort is not worth the return, or the return becomes highly negative, from an "opportunity cost" perspective.  You could easily waste your whole life investigating these things.

[iago]

I found the definition I was looking for. It's a quote from the guy who "invented" veganism (at least, the one who named it first):

[T]he word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.

[disco]

Fun fact:  You know how for a while milkshakes at McDonalds were just called "shakes" ?  Well that's because they didn't contain enough dairy to really be considered "milk" shakes.

[iago]

Fun fact:  You know how for a while milkshakes at McDonalds were just called "shakes" ?  Well that's because they didn't contain enough dairy to really be considered "milk" shakes.

<Wiggum> Do they have Krusty-Partially-Gelatinated-Non-Dairy-Gum-Based-Beverages?
<Lou> Mm-hm. And they call 'em "Shakes"
<Eddie> Heh. "Shakes". You don't know what you're gettin'.
<Wiggum> Well I know what I'm gettin'. Some donuts.

Edit: More fun facts, while we're at it!
- Cool Whip used to contain no dairy (it now contains 'Whey', toward the end)
- Oreos and Fudgee-o's contain no dairy (they're vegan)

[Towelie]

"As much as is practical and possible, live a lifestyle that minimizes unnecessary suffering".

You can't drink milk right? How does a cow suffer from being milked?

[while1]

"As much as is practical and possible, live a lifestyle that minimizes unnecessary suffering".

You can't drink milk right? How does a cow suffer from being milked?

In fact, cows who aren't milked suffer pain and udders get very swollen.

[Rule]

"As much as is practical and possible, live a lifestyle that minimizes unnecessary suffering".

You can't drink milk right? How does a cow suffer from being milked?

I was going to make this point also.  I think it's debatable whether some of the vegan lifestyle "minimizes unnecessary suffering".

[iago]

Cows' milk has to be used, or they're uncomfortable. And guess what? In nature, humans wouldn't milk them. Who else do cows produce milk for? Their babies!

That's right: cows' babies are supposed to drink their milk. In most scenarios, cows' babies are taken away and either killed and disposed of, turned into veal, or grown up without their parents to produce more milk. The males are always killed or turned into food.

Chickens is the same thing -- at the Calgary zoo they have piles of dead baby chickens. After they're born, the male chicks are all killed and given to the zoo to feed the birds.

So yes, if cows aren't milked it's uncomfortable, but the milk is supposed to go to their babies, not to humans.

[Rule]

Cows' milk has to be used, or they're uncomfortable. And guess what? In nature, humans wouldn't milk them. Who else do cows produce milk for? Their babies!

That's right: cows' babies are supposed to drink their milk. In most scenarios, cows' babies are taken away and either killed and disposed of, turned into veal, or grown up without their parents to produce more milk. The males are always killed or turned into food.

Chickens is the same thing -- at the Calgary zoo they have piles of dead baby chickens. After they're born, the male chicks are all killed and given to the zoo to feed the birds.

So yes, if cows aren't milked it's uncomfortable, but the milk is supposed to go to their babies, not to humans.

You say "in most scenarios".  What about the other situations?  Also not all the babies can be taken away.  They still need cows.

Also, I don't think that is common practice with chickens on smaller farms.  In fact, many people will just have hen houses on their properties, strictly for egg laying.  Regardless of whether or not this is a natural environment for them, I don't think there is any evidence they are suffering.