Are vegan restaurants actually vegan?

[Armin]

iago's logic seems pretty sound to me. I know eating meat and drinking milk is morally wrong, but I can't help it (or maybe just don't care enough at the moment). I at least make sure I don't use doublethink to justify eating meat.

[while1]

I fear of the consequences of my actions, sociopaths don't.  So I doubt I'm a sociopath.

[iago]

But you can have an animal companion without enslaving it -- it's all about treating them right.

The crux of your argument to me seems like you object to using animals in "unnatural" situations where they are placed into environments in which they originally would not have existed. Hence, shouldn't you be morally opposed to animals being kept as pets, as that is not natural?

I think you're misunderstanding my argument. I said that it's wrong to treat animals as slaves, by taking their products without their permission and not giving them anything in return. I don't remember saying anything about "unnatural" situations.

So why eat corn? The leftover stuff that isn't sold to stores is ground up and fed to the cows, which promotes the meat industry by your logic.

Does that actually make *any* sense to you? Because it doesn't to me...

[Towelie]

So why eat corn? The leftover stuff that isn't sold to stores is ground up and fed to the cows, which promotes the meat industry by your logic.

Does that actually make *any* sense to you? Because it doesn't to me...

If you buy milk, you promote the meat industry by promoting the dairy industry right?
If you buy corn, you promote the corn industry, which means cheaper food for the dairy cows, which means they can afford to have more.... which promotes the dairy industry and therefore the meat industry.

[iago]

So why eat corn? The leftover stuff that isn't sold to stores is ground up and fed to the cows, which promotes the meat industry by your logic.

Does that actually make *any* sense to you? Because it doesn't to me...

If you buy milk, you promote the meat industry by promoting the dairy industry right?
If you buy corn, you promote the corn industry, which means cheaper food for the dairy cows, which means they can afford to have more.... which promotes the dairy industry and therefore the meat industry.

That's a *huge* stretch.

But from what you said, it seems that if you buy *more* corn, there is less food left over for dairy cows (since you say that they ground up the leftover stuff). Therefore, it's our duty to buy *more* corn.

I don't agree with that, either, but it makes more sense than what you said

[Towelie]

So why eat corn? The leftover stuff that isn't sold to stores is ground up and fed to the cows, which promotes the meat industry by your logic.

Does that actually make *any* sense to you? Because it doesn't to me...

If you buy milk, you promote the meat industry by promoting the dairy industry right?
If you buy corn, you promote the corn industry, which means cheaper food for the dairy cows, which means they can afford to have more.... which promotes the dairy industry and therefore the meat industry.

That's a *huge* stretch.

But from what you said, it seems that if you buy *more* corn, there is less food left over for dairy cows (since you say that they ground up the leftover stuff). Therefore, it's our duty to buy *more* corn.

I don't agree with that, either, but it makes more sense than what you said

Leftover =  everything on the plant that isn't corn
Both of them make the same amount of sense to me, glad to hear you can understand how ridiculous I think your statement is.

[Armin]

Is that what you're saying? That you're "glad to hear [iago] can understand how ridiculous [you] think [his] statement is"?

I wasn't aware your gladness was triggered by such odd things.

[iago]

Leftover =  everything on the plant that isn't corn
Both of them make the same amount of sense to me, glad to hear you can understand how ridiculous I think your statement is.

I would only agree if they murdered the cornstalks. Fortunately, they don't.

I really can't debate a point that makes no sense.. I mean, it's just not the same thing.

Good job on twisted what I said and using it to forward your agenda, though -- you're well on your way to being just like CrAz3d/Warrior.

In any case, that isn't even my primary reason for avoiding milk -- I mean, it's a bad thing about dairy, but it's not THE bad thing. Read the rest of the thread.

[Towelie]

Leftover =  everything on the plant that isn't corn
Both of them make the same amount of sense to me, glad to hear you can understand how ridiculous I think your statement is.

I would only agree if they murdered the cornstalks. Fortunately, they don't.

I really can't debate a point that makes no sense.. I mean, it's just not the same thing.

Good job on twisted what I said and using it to forward your agenda, though -- you're well on your way to being just like CrAz3d/Warrior.

In any case, that isn't even my primary reason for avoiding milk -- I mean, it's a bad thing about dairy, but it's not THE bad thing. Read the rest of the thread.

Which part? The part where you think its bad because its supposed to be for a baby cow? Or because they are "locked up and imprisoned and unhappy"

[iago]

Which part? The part where you think its bad because its supposed to be for a baby cow? Or because they are "locked up and imprisoned and unhappy"

"supposed to be for a baby cow" isn't a primary reason, it's a counter-argument to "cows need to be milked or they die".

The other one, despite your glib summary, is what I'm referring to.

[Towelie]

Which part? The part where you think its bad because its supposed to be for a baby cow? Or because they are "locked up and imprisoned and unhappy"

"supposed to be for a baby cow" isn't a primary reason, it's a counter-argument to "cows need to be milked or they die".

The other one, despite your glib summary, is what I'm referring to.

Yeah, I guess I trolled up the summary

How do you know that the cows aren't happy and content living the way they do on a dairy farm, opposed to living on their own? I know it seems a bit obvious, that they are pretty much imprisoned, but does it really matter to them?

[iago]

Yeah, I guess I trolled up the summary

How do you know that the cows aren't happy and content living the way they do on a dairy farm, opposed to living on their own? I know it seems a bit obvious, that they are pretty much imprisoned, but does it really matter to them?

In my opinion, it matters from a moral standpoint. It's no more right to keep a cow imprisoned her entire life than a human, in my mind.

[Camel]

How do you know that the cows aren't happy and content living the way they do on a dairy farm, opposed to living on their own? I know it seems a bit obvious, that they are pretty much imprisoned, but does it really matter to them?

That vector is pointless to argue. Some slaves were content because they were fed, clothed, and had a place to sleep. That doesn't justify slavery.

[iago]

So, an update (that I'm pretty late posting): the one restaurant that they were extra suspicious of, and the only one that they suspect was actively deceiving customers, went to a lawyer and demanded that they take down the negative review:
http://www.quarrygirl.com/2009/07/15/operation-pancake-green-leaves-vegan-update/

The actual letter from the "lawyer" is here:

    From: Jeff Mann (jeffmannlaw@att.net)
    Date: July 15, 2009 3:58:33 PM PDT
    Cc: marnow6@yahoo.com
    Subject: Green Leaves vegan

    This office represents Green Leaves Vegan In Los Angeles Ca.Your website quarrygirl.com indicates that my clients food registers “overload” for Casein in my clients cheese dishes.and registers high for egg content in both it’s chicken and fish dishes.Your site contines to allege that my client is misleading it’s customers. The facts are that Green Leaves Vegan is vegan and is verified by the Los Angeles Health Dept. Green Leaves has passed all city inspections regarding it’s vegan menu. The information yoou have provided is false, malicious and defamatory. My clients business has suffered as a direct result of you website.You have 10 days to retract your comments about my clients restaurant on your website in a clear and noticable way. My client is even willing to allow you to retest his food. Failure to perform the above will result in legal action against you.Please be guided accordingly. Jeff Mann Attorney at Law. 3660 Wilshire bl. #522 Los Angeles Ca 90010 213-930-1902.

I love the mess of spelling mistakes/grammar mistakes. If that really IS from a lawyer, then wow!

[Towelie]

I don't see how he would be able to pass the bar to become a lawyer