Excerpt from "Against Meat"

[iago]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/11/magazine/11foer-t.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1 (all pages)

This is an excerpt from a book by a man who struggled with vegetarianism through most of his young life (basically, knowing it's the right thing, but not doing it). When he eventually had kids, he decided to bring them up vegetarian even though he wasn't completely vegetarian. He also talks a lot about his grandmother who'd escaped from eastern Europe during WWII.

For a short excerpt, it is, in my opinion, actually really good.

[warz]

how is it the "right thing"? you mean it was something he wanted to do but didn't do? sounds like he's full of that will power!

[iago]

Did you read the story? He explains in pretty good detail why he thought it was the "right thing".

[Tuberload]

iago what's your take on the fact that animals themselves eat other animals?

Edit: It was an inappropriate question for the purpose of this thread, so you can just ignore it if you like.   

[iago]

iago what's your take on the fact that animals themselves eat other animals?

Edit: It was an inappropriate question for the purpose of this thread, so you can just ignore it if you like.   

That's really a much longer answer than is really worth typing here. But I'll summarize

On one side: Animals do what animals do, and I'm ok with that. They don't farm each other, and they don't artificially impregnate each other.

On the flip side: Animals steal, rape, kill each other's (or their own) children, and lots of other horrible things. But, it's just their nature (we have the good fortune of being able to reason about our actions and minimize the harm/maximize the utility of things we do.

As for your edit, it's all good.

[rabbit]

Did you ever think that it is OUR nature to FARM ANIMALS?

[iago]

Whether or not it is, it isn't right. As humans, we have the ability to reason and to question our own actions, which lets us minimize the harm we cause.

[rabbit]

Pigs have the ability to reason, but they don't revolt.

[warz]

Whether or not it is, it isn't right. As humans, we have the ability to reason and to question our own actions, which lets us minimize the harm we cause.

How is it not "right"? Who decides what is right here?

[iago]

Pigs have the ability to reason, but they don't revolt.

If you bring up a human from birth, in prison, and they know nothing else but imprisonment, I'll bet they'd be the same.

[rabbit]

Pigs have the ability to reason, but they don't revolt.

If you bring up a human from birth, in prison, and they know nothing else but imprisonment, I'll bet they'd be the same.

Prove it.

[iago]

Pigs have the ability to reason, but they don't revolt.

If you bring up a human from birth, in prison, and they know nothing else but imprisonment, I'll bet they'd be the same.

Prove it.

It isn't possible to "prove" something of that nature, but I CAN give you a single datapoint (the only one that I'm aware of):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_%28feral_child%29

Basically, spent the first 12 years of her life imprisoned. She didn't try to escape, and she didn't revolt (as your original suggestion implies).

For what it's worth, it's a *really* sad story, and keep in mind that that's basically how millions of animals are raised every day.

[Camel]

Are you saying that it's cruel to farm animals, but not to hunt them in the wild? Would you hunt if it was necessary for survival?

[Hitmen]

itt: beating dead horses

[Camel]

I think iago would take issue with beating a dead horse in his thread.