The "sissy boy" experiments

[iago]

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/06/08/the-sissy-boy-experiment

Super sad story. Highly recommended, though.

[AntiVirus]

Wow.  That's depressing.  Post part 2 tomorrow please.

[iago]

Hah, I screwed up the title. Fixed!

If I see the story, I definitely will.

[CrAz3D]

1) It's fucked up. People do the shit they do...whatever. But I understand that the govt/society is jacked, so we have shit like this.

2) at 5:24ish Cooper asks "do you remember the beat?" The question shows that this isn't a journalistic piece, but that it is a propaganda piece. A better question would have been "do you remember the physical punishment as a consequence your brother received for his actions?" Just like the mom said, today it would be abuse; however, at that time, that sort of physical punishment was just that, and nothing more. I think it's very important to put things into context. Beating implies ill-will, whereas physical punishment implies good-intentions.

3) He ate his lunch in the boys' bathroom for 3 years. OK? Again, this whole thing is fucked up, but saying he was an uber-loner means nothing. Context. Needed.

4) Lack of relationship might suggest something, but it doesnt necessitate something.

I'm very interested in this mini-series. I'll try to DVR the next few episodes of 360. I generally like Anderson Cooper. He is one of my favorite reporters (or whatever-the-hell they should be called these days [eg anchor, journalist, commentator, etc]).

[nslay]

They conditioned him to act masculine (the norm) ... but as a side effect from the beatings, emotionally damaged him to the point of isolation.

I can understand why the mother would seek treatment so that Kirk could avoid years of physical and emotional torment from peers (which can also mess you up psychologically). But when you mess with a child like that, it can have all sorts of unforeseen consequences (as in the video).

Not sure why sissy behavior should correlate to homosexuality. Was he really homosexual, or did he merely act feminine? How can you make an assessment about the sexuality of a five year old? I had a gay neighbor a few years ago who acted otherwise normal (i.e. you couldn't easily guess he was gay). No hint of feminine behavior from him!

[AntiVirus]

Was he really homosexual, or did he merely act feminine? How can you make an assessment about the sexuality of a five year old?

He eventually came out and admitted he was gay.  So yes, he was really a homosexual.  I doubt it was caused by this treatment so it's probably safe to assume he was gay when he was 5, too; however, I have no idea how anyone in their right state of mind would label a 5 year old as such and then put them in treatment for it.  You have to keep in mind, though, that this was many years ago.  Homosexuality wasn't nearly as prevalent as it is now nor nearly as accepted.  I'm not saying it's accepted now, but we (as a society) are far more tolerant than we were.  Now, I am not giving that as an excuse for them assessing him as such, but intolerance was likely the mindset.

[iago]

Not sure why sissy behavior should correlate to homosexuality. Was he really homosexual, or did he merely act feminine? How can you make an assessment about the sexuality of a five year old? I had a gay neighbor a few years ago who acted otherwise normal (i.e. you couldn't easily guess he was gay). No hint of feminine behavior from him!

In fairness, it often does. But not always. I know 'sissy' guys who are straight, and I'm a non-'sissy' guy who isn't.

It's also possible he was a potential transsexual - that he would be more comfortable in a female body than a male one. But we'll never know.

Homosexuality wasn't nearly as prevalent as it is now nor nearly as accepted.

Homosexuality has always been prevalent, just people didn't admit to it and lived sad false lives back then.

[AntiVirus]

Yeah, I know that.  Probably a bad choice of words.  Perhaps I should have said main stream or something.

[deadly7]

Yeah, I know that.  Probably a bad choice of words.  Perhaps I should have said main stream or something.

Or you could have said "outwardly prevalent".

[nslay]

Not sure why sissy behavior should correlate to homosexuality. Was he really homosexual, or did he merely act feminine? How can you make an assessment about the sexuality of a five year old? I had a gay neighbor a few years ago who acted otherwise normal (i.e. you couldn't easily guess he was gay). No hint of feminine behavior from him!

In fairness, it often does. But not always. I know 'sissy' guys who are straight, and I'm a non-'sissy' guy who isn't.

It's also possible he was a potential transsexual - that he would be more comfortable in a female body than a male one. But we'll never know.

I think sissy behavior as a hallmark of homosexuality is a stereotype. There are examples of sissy gay and straight men. Do they really correlate? Does sissy behavior really suggest homosexuality with high probability? I knew two gay men (that have openly admitted it) neither of which behaved sissy or had high-pitched voices or any of the other stereotyped behaviors. They acted otherwise normal (indistinguishable from straight men).

Why sexuality would necessarily influence your gender (and here I mean gender as in behavior), or even correlate with your gender, isn't clear to me. I think it's a great leap to claim that sexuality should necessarily influence gender.

[Rule]

Not sure why sissy behavior should correlate to homosexuality. Was he really homosexual, or did he merely act feminine? How can you make an assessment about the sexuality of a five year old? I had a gay neighbor a few years ago who acted otherwise normal (i.e. you couldn't easily guess he was gay). No hint of feminine behavior from him!

In fairness, it often does. But not always. I know 'sissy' guys who are straight, and I'm a non-'sissy' guy who isn't.

It's also possible he was a potential transsexual - that he would be more comfortable in a female body than a male one. But we'll never know.

I think sissy behavior as a hallmark of homosexuality is a stereotype. There are examples of sissy gay and straight men. Do they really correlate? Does sissy behavior really suggest homosexuality with high probability? I knew two gay men (that have openly admitted it) neither of which behaved sissy or had high-pitched voices or any of the other stereotyped behaviors. They acted otherwise normal (indistinguishable from straight men).

Why sexuality would necessarily influence your gender (and here I mean gender as in behavior), or even correlate with your gender, isn't clear to me. I think it's a great leap to claim that sexuality should necessarily influence gender.

Your use of the term 'gender' for behaviour is a bit confusing...    But I have noticed that, generally, gay men are more feminine than straight men.  This may not be true, but it also would not be surprising that they would (in general) share more than just one significant preference with (straight) women.  Perhaps there is a latent feature shared between women and homosexual men which affects more than just sexual preference?

[iago]

Rule posted while I was writing this, and he's basically saying the same thing as me, but pretend I said it first and give me credit.

I think sissy behavior as a hallmark of homosexuality is a stereotype. There are examples of sissy gay and straight men. Do they really correlate? Does sissy behavior really suggest homosexuality with high probability? I knew two gay men (that have openly admitted it) neither of which behaved sissy or had high-pitched voices or any of the other stereotyped behaviors. They acted otherwise normal (indistinguishable from straight men).

We call those, "day walkers".

Seriously though, there's definitely a correlation, though I can't go as far as to say causation, between stereotypical 'sissy' behaviour and homosexualism. I was at Pride last weekend, and there are far, FAR more effeminate people there than the average population. What the correlation means, I can't really say.

But the thing is, there's nothing wrong with that.

[iago]

Another way to look at it is this: typical straight men are in constant fear of people questioning their sexuality. For that reason, they often shy away from stereotypically feminine activities, whether it's cooking, dancing, wearing makeup, being penetrated (NSFW ), etc. Even if they want to, they're afraid to be called a sissy or fag or whatever.

Gay men don't have that problem. They don't have to worry about people questioning their sexuality - there are very few secretly straight gay people - so they can go ahead and act on whatever feminine desires they have.

Whether or not that's related to acting like a 'sissy', I don't know. It definitely doesn't apply to 5 year olds, though, who are too young to feel shame. But it may apply to older people.

[Rule]

This is true.  I remember really liking (royal) purple as a child, and sometimes being made fun of for it.  It has absolutely nothing to do with my sexual preference -- I just like the colour.  So there was pressure to avoid anything that might be classified as 'feminine'.

On the other hand, I imagine some gay men sometimes exaggerate any effeminate impulses so as to make a point, or for attention.  

Both are examples of how social engineering could lead to this perception, independently of sexual preferences and natural femininity.  Despite that, I think there probably is some underlying correlation.  It seems unlikely that whatever causes someone to be homosexual would solely affect that preference.

[MyndFyre]

Anderson Cooper was just upset that he didn't get that treatment when he was young.

Another way to look at it is this: typical straight men are in constant fear of people questioning their sexuality.

I think that's a ridiculous statement.