Author Topic: US credit rating downgraded  (Read 9499 times)

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Offline CrAz3D

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US credit rating downgraded
« on: August 06, 2011, 12:13:30 am »
...and I was more concerned with that than being surrounded by strippers.  I'm too "old" to go out at midnight when the good looking strippers hit the floor.  Whatever.

anyway, WHAT THE FUCK @ credit rating.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/05/news/economy/downgrade_rumors/index.htm?iref=BN1
further WTF-ness:

Quote
A source familiar with the matter said S&P initially miscalculated the growth trajectory of the nation's debt, and then went ahead with its downgrade anyway.

Offline while1

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2011, 12:22:43 am »
Out of the three major credit rating agencies, the S&P one is the only one that has downgraded our rating.  Moody's and some other agency hasn't downgraded our rating, but I'm sure this will cause a negative reaction come Monday when the markets open. 
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Offline CrAz3D

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2011, 12:28:54 am »
Agreed.  Also, like the quote I ... err ... quoted ... S&P apparently miscalculated shit and made the downgrade anyway.

I bet D.C. is a shitty place to be right now.

Offline deadly7

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2011, 12:55:22 pm »
Not that this will change anything, but the shitholes at DC (both R and D alike) can't continue entitlement and pork spending indefinitely without a raise in government income to match the borrowing.
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Offline nslay

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2011, 03:37:25 pm »
With Tea Party nutters in power, we'll continue to have black-and-white policies.

These idiots actually think the Federal Government is the same as a person, a business or a State Government. Indeed, most State Governments balance their budget, but the Federal Government can bail them out (they don't mention that last part). Who bails the Federal Government out?

This isn't Republicans and Democrats being stupid, this whole debacle was caused by the Tea Party and their simpleton views. The Democrats and non-Tea Party Republicans were ready to compromise.
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Offline deadly7

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2011, 10:24:31 pm »
Who bails the Federal Government out?
They do, by printing more money and causing excess inflation.
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Offline Armin

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2011, 11:12:28 pm »
This isn't Republicans and Democrats being stupid, this whole debacle was caused by the Tea Party and their simpleton views.
speaking of simpleton views...
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Offline nslay

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2011, 11:36:55 pm »
This isn't Republicans and Democrats being stupid, this whole debacle was caused by the Tea Party and their simpleton views.
speaking of simpleton views...
Can you name any Tea Party member who was prepared to compromise? No taxes, no closing loop-holes, or no deal.
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Offline MyndFyre

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2011, 01:44:57 am »
Can you name any Tea Party member who was prepared to compromise? No taxes, no closing loop-holes, or no deal.
Can you explain what the benefit of the compromise was?  We ended up... oh yeah, getting a ton of new debt and, as we saw, the S&P downgraded our credit.

No, compromise didn't help the US.  Not spending more money was what was going to help the US.
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Offline nslay

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2011, 02:35:51 am »
Can you name any Tea Party member who was prepared to compromise? No taxes, no closing loop-holes, or no deal.
Can you explain what the benefit of the compromise was?  We ended up... oh yeah, getting a ton of new debt and, as we saw, the S&P downgraded our credit.

No, compromise didn't help the US.  Not spending more money was what was going to help the US.
The only compromise made was the amount of spending cut (which apparently pissed S&P off). There was no revenue on the table even though there probably ought to have been.

The solution isn't as simple as immediate spending cuts. Immediate drastic spending cuts on some of these programs can have very negative effects on the economy (because it has negative effects on consumers). Nobody wins in that situation. The same goes for taxes. Imposing taxes in the wrong places will most certainly hurt the economy. It's not a simple problem ... that's why they forwarded it to a super committee. It'll be interesting to see what they do.

The debt problem has to be solved in the long term and in a gentle way.

I don't like that the debt ceiling was raised anymore than you, but the alternatives are worse. Indeed, we didn't have to default on August 2nd. We could pay our interest and then leave a substantial portion of the Federal Government unpaid. No matter how you divide that remainder up, something important (a lot) isn't accounted for.
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Offline deadly7

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2011, 03:45:40 am »
Not spending more money was what was going to help the US.
Politicians in any party don't care, save a handful. Beyond entitlement spending, which is going to become a behemoth and piss off healthcare providers the world over, the size of the government is more to blame. Entitlement is just the low-hanging fruit to which all politicians can point at, since actual reform (eg: removing useless things like the TSA, food subsidies, etc.) requires real work.
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Offline CrAz3D

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2011, 10:45:37 am »
IIRC, the debt bill cut 2.something trillion over ten years, however, the projected debt is still around 26t.  So we cut it 10%.  That's not drastic.  Further, we never would've seen those cuts had the "simpletons" compromised.  We would've had fewer cuts, and probably very little revenue increase.

We need extreme cuts and modest revenue increase. 

Also, the Senate bill apparently went further than Boehner's originally proposed bill. 
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jul/27/democrats-debt-bill-beats-gop-version-spending-cut/

Like armin suggested, your simpleton remark is rather applicable to your whole post(s).

Offline dark_drake

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2011, 11:23:09 am »
We need extreme cuts and modest revenue increase. 
It was a joke hearing they were in serious negotiations, but revenue increases were already off the table. So, when's the next time the elephant and donkey are going to create a crisis and still not go far enough to fix it? October next year?
errr... something like that...

Offline nslay

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2011, 11:25:43 am »
IIRC, the debt bill cut 2.something trillion over ten years, however, the projected debt is still around 26t.  So we cut it 10%.  That's not drastic.  Further, we never would've seen those cuts had the "simpletons" compromised.  We would've had fewer cuts, and probably very little revenue increase.

We need extreme cuts and modest revenue increase. 

Also, the Senate bill apparently went further than Boehner's originally proposed bill. 
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jul/27/democrats-debt-bill-beats-gop-version-spending-cut/

Like armin suggested, your simpleton remark is rather applicable to your whole post(s).
I agree, but modest modest revenue increase? The Tea Party wouldn't have it. And yes they are simpletons because they don't compromise in the name of extreme ideaology. They also compare the Federal Government's spending to personal and business finance ... simplistic point of view that ... these people are complete idiots.

I mean even some of the senior Republicans think that the Tea Party is cuckoo. Did you see McCain complaining to his own party?

The senior officials were ready to solve this problem with compromises and give the world economy a better impression of our government as a coherent and cooperative ruling body. The recent spiral downward is partly due to this drama we saw (which was undisputably caused by the Tea Party).
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Offline Armin

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2011, 03:54:11 pm »
Like armin suggested, your simpleton remark is rather applicable to your whole post(s).
I was mostly suggesting that "this whole debacle" was not "caused by the Tea Party and their simpleton views". The significant failure is that we find ourselves in a seemingly inescapable, ever-growing debt, which was caused by decades of ineptitude and poor policy of both Republicans and Democrats. Scapegoating the Tea Party is all too easy and narrow sighted.
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Offline nslay

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2011, 04:49:10 pm »
Like armin suggested, your simpleton remark is rather applicable to your whole post(s).
I was mostly suggesting that "this whole debacle" was not "caused by the Tea Party and their simpleton views". The significant failure is that we find ourselves in a seemingly inescapable, ever-growing debt, which was caused by decades of ineptitude and poor policy of both Republicans and Democrats. Scapegoating the Tea Party is all too easy and narrow sighted.
I certainly agree with you about the cause. But their no-compromise attitude brought us to the brink of default or government shutdown. The scary thing is many of them don't care if their behavior gets them re-elected or not ... they're working primarily on their own ideology.

Myndfyre might be right that they're their attitude brought about deeper cuts. Although, I think we would have revenue in the deal (particularly the Bush tax cuts expired) if the Tea Party wasn't there.

EDIT:
I'm mispelling a lot lately :(
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 04:55:24 pm by nslay »
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Offline CrAz3D

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2011, 04:52:08 pm »
Actually, lots of them did exactly what their constituents wanted...

Also, revenue increases can be considered at another time (they will be).  This was just an optimal time to accomplish as much cutting as possible.

Offline Newby

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2011, 05:36:50 pm »
What simply amazes me is things like this:

However, Obama's chief political strategist, David Axelrod, blamed the conservative tea party movement for the S&P downgrade, saying the linking of a necessary debt ceiling increase to political debate on spending cuts caused the gridlock cited by the ratings agency.

... Axelrod said, adding: "The fact of the matter is that this is essentially a tea party downgrade."

On the same program, Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina disputed Axelrod's contention, arguing that "the tea party's not the problem" and "Washington was broken before they got here."

He blamed Obama for a failure of leadership, calling the president "a casual observer at a time when he needs to be fully engaged."

I love how the dipshits in charge just keep pointing fingers. "IT'S YOUR FAULT!" "NO, IT'S YOUR FAULT!"

How about they shut the fuck up and solve something? I wish I got paid as much as they do to bitch and whine and accomplish nothing.

And it's times like this that I wish I understood economics. But you really can't trust anyone to speak on behalf of the economy. Or on economics. It's amazing how so many different opinions on what to do/what will happen can resonate from people with a common educational background (one vested in econ) and yet they all still get paid to spout what essentially is an educated opinion.

(And the most frustrating thing in the world is when people start discussing economics or politics in a party setting. I don't discuss particles, physics, algorithms, mathematics, or anything else they find boring, why must they spout crap that's probably all incorrect and biased anyway?)

(And it's this subjectivity that is why I prefer physics and CS.)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 05:39:09 pm by Newby »
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Quote
[17:32:45] * xar sets mode: -oooooooooo algorithm ban chris cipher newby stdio TehUser tnarongi|away vursed warz
[17:32:54] * xar sets mode: +o newby
[17:32:58] <xar> new rule
[17:33:02] <xar> me and newby rule all

I'd bet that you're currently bloated like a water ballon on a hot summer's day.

That analogy doesn't even make sense.  Why would a water balloon be especially bloated on a hot summer's day? For your sake, I hope there wasn't too much logic testing on your LSAT. 

Offline nslay

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2011, 08:25:43 pm »
Yeah, I saw those video snippets too. Blame doesn't matter much now.
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Offline MyndFyre

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2011, 08:29:54 pm »
The thing about tax increases is that many of the tea party members know that they're the ones who get the shaft.

My wife and I are starting a new business next January.  If our projections are correct, we could be making over $250k in 2013 between my normal job, my consulting work, and that (we're expecting ~$35k in revenue, $5k in costs in 2012, and I'm figuring about $125k / $25k in 2013).  Now, if that all works out, I'd be inclined to hire some employees and quit my day job in 2014.  But the $250k mark is where the democrats want to put the tax cutoff for the highest tax line.  To be frank, I have been working 70-hour weeks or so to get my consulting done and start this business.  I want to be rewarded for that work.  But my reward is, congratulations, we're going to come in and steal more of your money.

Approximately 47% of Americans pay no taxes.  If you want more revenue, fine - make the tax code fair.  I guarantee you that the tea party would be happy with a flat, uniform tax rate, or a repeal of the income tax in favor of the Fair Tax (the federal ~18-20% sales tax).  

But don't say that *I* have to start paying more taxes because I've been successful, while half of the country isn't paying anything.  That isn't "fair," and the people who have no skin in the game (the people not paying taxes) are going to keep voting for the people who don't make them pay taxes, while continuing to raise the taxes of those paying taxes.  It inhibits people from being able to move upward in social class, which is ironic, because the demagogues in Washington want to always make the lower classes envious of the higher classes.

It's disgusting.
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Offline nslay

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2011, 09:03:02 pm »
The thing about tax increases is that many of the tea party members know that they're the ones who get the shaft.

My wife and I are starting a new business next January.  If our projections are correct, we could be making over $250k in 2013 between my normal job, my consulting work, and that (we're expecting ~$35k in revenue, $5k in costs in 2012, and I'm figuring about $125k / $25k in 2013).  Now, if that all works out, I'd be inclined to hire some employees and quit my day job in 2014.  But the $250k mark is where the democrats want to put the tax cutoff for the highest tax line.  To be frank, I have been working 70-hour weeks or so to get my consulting done and start this business.  I want to be rewarded for that work.  But my reward is, congratulations, we're going to come in and steal more of your money.

Approximately 47% of Americans pay no taxes.  If you want more revenue, fine - make the tax code fair.  I guarantee you that the tea party would be happy with a flat, uniform tax rate, or a repeal of the income tax in favor of the Fair Tax (the federal ~18-20% sales tax).  

But don't say that *I* have to start paying more taxes because I've been successful, while half of the country isn't paying anything.  That isn't "fair," and the people who have no skin in the game (the people not paying taxes) are going to keep voting for the people who don't make them pay taxes, while continuing to raise the taxes of those paying taxes.  It inhibits people from being able to move upward in social class, which is ironic, because the demagogues in Washington want to always make the lower classes envious of the higher classes.

It's disgusting.
If there are cuts to entitlement programs, particularly those people have paid into their entire life, then I think you shouldn't have a problem paying the normal tax rate ... just let the Bush tax cuts expire. Even S&P thinks it's a swell idea!

Good luck with your business.
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Offline MyndFyre

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2011, 11:41:38 am »
My position on this is that I would be glad to pay into social security my entire life and not take any benefit from it as long as my kids won't have to pay into it. I am preparing for my retirement because I am a responsible adult. I don't need the government to tell me how to take care of myself.
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Offline nslay

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2011, 03:55:54 pm »
My position on this is that I would be glad to pay into social security my entire life and not take any benefit from it as long as my kids won't have to pay into it. I am preparing for my retirement because I am a responsible adult. I don't need the government to tell me how to take care of myself.
Even responsible adults become disabled, lose their pension, or take enormous losses in their IRA (whether due to recessions or disasters).

Of course, those people are less successful than you and deserve to be homeless.
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Offline nslay

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2011, 08:23:23 pm »
Looks like Democrats are planning to pull a Tea-Party on Medicare ... no comprises. More crap to come!
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Offline deadly7

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2011, 10:39:33 pm »
Looks like Democrats are planning to pull a Tea-Party on Medicare ... no comprises. More crap to come!
Oh good. I'm glad we spend millions a year on drug addicts that go in to ER's because of vague undefinable symptoms and need to get a battery of tests in the off chance they have something fatal and would result in the doctor getting sued otherwise.
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<Hitmen> he has no arms?!

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(00:50:11) Mythix: I'm going to fuck that red dot out of your head.
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Offline CrAz3D

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Re: US credit rating downgraded
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2011, 11:09:18 am »
Looks like Democrats are planning to pull a Tea-Party on Medicare ... no comprises. More crap to come!
Oh good. I'm glad we spend millions a year on drug addicts that go in to ER's because of vague undefinable symptoms and need to get a battery of tests in the off chance they have something fatal and would result in the doctor getting sued otherwise.
x2


I like the idea of turning Medicare into a voucher system.  If people see what they're paying, they won't be as likely to waste (it'll also likely kill a lot of those predatory companies that feed on confused old people).