Do you "show respect?"

[deadly7]

Assuming a 50k starting salary with no raises?  That's an unrealistic assumption.  Most specialists make more than a million a year.  I know lots of doctors and none of them are making 50k/year, and they can often pay their debt off in a year or two.

50k/yr working a nonmedical job. IE: The income that would be lost if one did not go to medical school and instead worked. And no, most specialists do not make anywhere near a million dollars a year. http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2011 see slide 2. slightly older, but a different source: http://www.gthealthsearch.com/attachments/AMGA_Compensation_Survey.pdf . The highest average salaries (cardiothoracic surgery and neurosurgery) were still below 600,000. If you know some doctors making a million dollars or more not running a Beverly Hills derm boutique, I'd love to meet them. They're far and wide the exception.

You seem to have some kind of personal involvement in this argument or to have thought a lot about medicine as career.  Is that true?

I started out college considering medicine, yes. Many of my best friends are either in or going into the field, so I keep abreast of current info.

[MyndFyre]

For what it's worth, if somebody has *done* something that deserves respect, it's a little different. But having a title, going to school for who cares how long, etc, isn't sufficient. You have to *do* something, and prove that you deserve respect.

I know a lot of powerful people who have bullshitted their way into positions of power. They don't get my respect.

Having done the 4+6 years to earn a Ph.D. isn't doing something that deserves respect?

[iago]

For what it's worth, if somebody has *done* something that deserves respect, it's a little different. But having a title, going to school for who cares how long, etc, isn't sufficient. You have to *do* something, and prove that you deserve respect.

I know a lot of powerful people who have bullshitted their way into positions of power. They don't get my respect.

Having done the 4+6 years to earn a Ph.D. isn't doing something that deserves respect?

Not necessarily. I know people with Ph.D.s that are totally useless. Several of them were my professors.

[MyndFyre]

Not necessarily. I know people with Ph.D.s that are totally useless. Several of them were my professors.

While I agree that it's not a hard and fast rule, I would still say that many of them are worth respecting.  And I think that I would still tend towards giving them respect and then having to take it away.

[iago]

Not necessarily. I know people with Ph.D.s that are totally useless. Several of them were my professors.

While I agree that it's not a hard and fast rule, I would still say that many of them are worth respecting.  And I think that I would still tend towards giving them respect and then having to take it away.

That's fair. I show them the same amount of respect I show anybody else, and increase it if they deserve it. Or decrease it if they don't.

[Rule]

Not necessarily. I know people with Ph.D.s that are totally useless. Several of them were my professors.

While I agree that it's not a hard and fast rule, I would still say that many of them are worth respecting.  And I think that I would still tend towards giving them respect and then having to take it away.

That's fair. I show them the same amount of respect I show anybody else, and increase it if they deserve it. Or decrease it if they don't.

I think this view is a bit too black and white and I doubt you honestly carry through this policy 'in real life' (of having absolutely no more respect because of a title ever).  If you get really sick then, do you not go to a physician, because his title doesn't mean he is more likely to be able to help you than any other random person?

[iago]

Not necessarily. I know people with Ph.D.s that are totally useless. Several of them were my professors.

While I agree that it's not a hard and fast rule, I would still say that many of them are worth respecting.  And I think that I would still tend towards giving them respect and then having to take it away.

That's fair. I show them the same amount of respect I show anybody else, and increase it if they deserve it. Or decrease it if they don't.

I think this view is a bit too black and white and I doubt you honestly carry through this policy 'in real life' (of having absolutely no more respect because of a title ever).  If you get really sick then, do you not go to a physician, because his title doesn't mean he is more likely to be able to help you than any other random person?

If I walk in off the street to a new physician, I don't respect or trust him/her right away. But in that case, it doesn't take a heck of a lot to convince me one way or the other once I talk to him/her for a couple minutes.

[Rule]

Not necessarily. I know people with Ph.D.s that are totally useless. Several of them were my professors.

While I agree that it's not a hard and fast rule, I would still say that many of them are worth respecting.  And I think that I would still tend towards giving them respect and then having to take it away.

That's fair. I show them the same amount of respect I show anybody else, and increase it if they deserve it. Or decrease it if they don't.

I think this view is a bit too black and white and I doubt you honestly carry through this policy 'in real life' (of having absolutely no more respect because of a title ever).  If you get really sick then, do you not go to a physician, because his title doesn't mean he is more likely to be able to help you than any other random person?

If I walk in off the street to a new physician, I don't respect or trust him/her right away. But in that case, it doesn't take a heck of a lot to convince me one way or the other once I talk to him/her for a couple minutes.

Honestly, I'm not buying it.   

You walk into a physicians office, not a homeopath's etc.  If there's an emergency you call an ambulance and see a doctor in ER, not a mystic healer.  The title DOES mean something to you, and I think you have to concede that.  Sure, lots of doctors are incompetent, and many have probably bullshitted their ways into positions of power.  But that does NOT mean the title counts for nothing.  On average, without meeting the physician even, (if you are sane) your prior has to be that the physician is more likely to help you for a medical problem than a random person.  And yes, because of their title.

[deadly7]

Honestly, I'm not buying it.   

You walk into a physicians office, not a homeopath's etc.  If there's an emergency you call an ambulance and see a doctor in ER, not a mystic healer.  The title DOES mean something to you, and I think you have to concede that.  Sure, lots of doctors are incompetent, and many have probably bullshitted their ways into positions of power.  But that does NOT mean the title counts for nothing.  On average, without meeting the physician even, (if you are sane) your prior has to be that the physician is more likely to help you for a medical problem than a random person.  And yes, because of their title.

This may be splitting hairs, but I don't think of deferring to someone's expertise as respect. Respect must be earned. When a person has power over you (in this case: medical knowledge and a DEA #), they don't automatically deserve your respect -- merely polite acknowledgement. Respect comes after examining their interactions with you and the efficacy of their treatment.

[iago]

Honestly, I'm not buying it.   

You walk into a physicians office, not a homeopath's etc.  If there's an emergency you call an ambulance and see a doctor in ER, not a mystic healer.  The title DOES mean something to you, and I think you have to concede that.  Sure, lots of doctors are incompetent, and many have probably bullshitted their ways into positions of power.  But that does NOT mean the title counts for nothing.  On average, without meeting the physician even, (if you are sane) your prior has to be that the physician is more likely to help you for a medical problem than a random person.  And yes, because of their title.

This may be splitting hairs, but I don't think of deferring to someone's expertise as respect. Respect must be earned. When a person has power over you (in this case: medical knowledge and a DEA #), they don't automatically deserve your respect -- merely polite acknowledgement. Respect comes after examining their interactions with you and the efficacy of their treatment.

Splitting hairs indeed. I think that we're just defining 'respect' differently.

[CrAz3D]

I guess I'm confused; what is the difference, in your mind, between 'showing respect' and 'being polite'?

I figure respect is all (in the context of a soldier) "thanks for your service and for protecting america!"  I see polite as being something I'd do for anyone, regardless of their status.  I guess, however, I can see politeness as "moderate" respect, because I sure wouldn't hold the door open for someone that I know is scum.  I see polite as neutral/the middle ground.

When my opinion of "friends" has dropped in the past, I've let them know how I feel.  For example, a "friend" (acquaintance) was throwing empty beer cans at me at a party.  I ignored it so I wouldnt start nothing.  Eventually I let him have it.  I brought up the fact that he's been in undergrad for 8 years (10 years now...no end in sight from what I hear), for a useless degree, has no job, lives with his parents while taking grandma's money, mooches off all his "friends" without discretion or thanks, etc.  I didnt say anything untrue, but the truth can hurt the most.  He eventually got the hint and stopped showing up (he used to show up uninvited).

I sort of think similar might happen to my army "friend."  I am friends with his wife, but he is a tool.  He brags about being uneducated, brags about abusing people in Iraq, has been fired numerous times from shitty jobs (and one half-decent job) and even somewhat brags about that.  Talks down to everyone else about "life" because "he served" and was a "roughneck."  Fuck that.  What's scary is that he has a kid on the way.  Thank God it's a girl (she is gonna end up a slut unless her mom is the only one that cares for her), otherwise a boy would just turn into a dick (if my "friend" had any say).

The military example you gave is an interesting one.  I've known a lot of military folks because I volunteer with the American Legion.  Generally speaking, I'm predisposed to giving military or ex-military members more respect by default.  But I'm not sure that I 'show' that more readily than not; simply that I regard them more highly, trust that they will be honest more readily, etc.

I am the opposite.  I distrust people that have served, unless I know them.  They have no reason to tell me the truth, and have everything to gain (e.g., "respect") by making their service look special, when in reality they were just dicks and portrayed us/the US in a poor light.  I've noticed a distinction between enlisted and officers, though, because enlisted people TEND (over generalization) to be the bottom of the barrel folks.  The military recruits inner city drop outs for a reason: they are doing nothing with their life, and are "less valuable" than other citizens, and can, therefore, be more-easily bought.

I happen to disagree with iago, too, with regard to the comment 'because they have a title.'  I very much disagree with almost all of Pres. Obama's policies, and I think that he is leading the country down a destructive path; but I still respect the fact that he is the President.  A lot of people I know do not, and it annoys me.

'Showing respect,' though, is a tough one.  I try hard to be polite in general (at least IRL - online notwithstanding), whether someone has my respect or not.  Being civil to other people should happen - even if a person is a bad person, that person is still a person, and has some basic measure of value just based on that fact.

Would you walk up to Obama and thank him for all he has done for the country (I doubt you would by your post), or would you simply acknowledge him in a polite manner (e.g., shake his hand and all the photo-op stuff if you were to meet him). 





re titles/education/etc, all a title/education shows is that someone can jump through hoops.  I saw a harvard lawyer during a trial this summer.  She was at an uber-prestigious firm in Dallas.  She sucked.  Hard.  Education or title does not guarantee knowledge or ability.

[Rule]

I saw a harvard lawyer during a trial this summer.  She was at an uber-prestigious firm in Dallas.  She sucked.  Hard.  Education or title does not guarantee knowledge or ability.

I think this is the key issue here: "education or title does not guarantee knowledge or ability".  Yes, it certainly does not guarantee much!  But neither does a positive personal experience with someone!

A title guarantees virtually nothing, but it does (or should!) affect your prior expectations of someone.  Yes, if someone goes to Harvard law, my expectation is that they will be more competent than a lawyer who went to say a bottom tier law school.  It may turn out that the person is question is in fact not competent, but their educational background will initially affect my expectations, and it ought to, even if there are many bad lawyers from Harvard!

I still think people are compartmentalizing this issue -- painting it black and white -- and failing to see any gray.  We grow up being told that various people with various titles are important and experts, etc., so when we see a counter-example the temptation is to completely rebel against that practice.  Our expectations were at some point raised by a title, and they were not met by a real life experience.  So the reasoning is that we should not have expectations from titles anymore.  But if you just look at things statistically and dispassionately you must see that these titles SHOULD a priori (e.g. before you know anything else about the person) affect your distribution over someone's competence level.

[iago]

For what it's worth, most of the awesome people in my industry don't have a degree or certifications or anything. They're judged by the work they do, not the titles they have. Certification exams are easy to pass, college courses require money, but doing some awesome exploit/opensource/etc work are worth far more than that.

[CrAz3D]

I saw a harvard lawyer during a trial this summer.  She was at an uber-prestigious firm in Dallas.  She sucked.  Hard.  Education or title does not guarantee knowledge or ability.

I think this is the key issue here: "education or title does not guarantee knowledge or ability".  Yes, it certainly does not guarantee much!  But neither does a positive personal experience with someone!

A = singular.  With that, I agree.

A title guarantees virtually nothing, but it does (or should!) affect your prior expectations of someone.  Yes, if someone goes to Harvard law, my expectation is that they will be more competent than a lawyer who went to say a bottom tier law school.  It may turn out that the person is question is in fact not competent, but their educational background will initially affect my expectations, and it ought to, even if there are many bad lawyers from Harvard!

A title definitely influences my expectations; however, higher expectations dont inherently mean more respect.

I still think people are compartmentalizing this issue -- painting it black and white -- and failing to see any gray.  We grow up being told that various people with various titles are important and experts, etc., so when we see a counter-example the temptation is to completely rebel against that practice.  Our expectations were at some point raised by a title, and they were not met by a real life experience.  So the reasoning is that we should not have expectations from titles anymore.  But if you just look at things statistically and dispassionately you must see that these titles SHOULD a priori (e.g. before you know anything else about the person) affect your distribution over someone's competence level.

Competence in a given field doesnt suggest that the person is respectable.  there are tons of competent lawyers, doctors, etc that are also scumbags.

[Sidoh]

Something happened on my flight from Honolulu to Phoenix that reminded me of this thread.

Disclaimer: Given my severe sleep deprivation and the fact that I couldn't hear very well, I'm not entirely sure that the following is an accurate recounting of what actually happened. Despite my uncertainty, I decided it'd be worth posting because it's an interesting situation, even if I'm not remembering it perfectly.

When I boarded, I noticed I was seated around a bunch of military people going home for the holidays.

They were loud. Every so loud. I've never been on a flight with a ruder bunch of people. This was a late night flight... took off around 10PM local time, landing in Phoenix around 6AM. People were trying to sleep. Talking doesn't bother me, but the kind of talking where you're being loud because you think everyone else around you should be basking in your greatness is really obnoxious.

Before we even started taking off, they were doing shots... this didn't help how loud they were.

About halfway through the flight, I was woken up by a flight attendant asking if there were any doctors/nurses/EMTs on board. Curious, I stayed awake hoping I could find out what had happened. One of these toolbags drank too much and passed out or something. The doctor/nurse/EMT kept coming back to check blood pressure, give water, etc.

Paramedics met the plane when we landed and took the toolbag away before anyone else got up.

While waiting to get off the plane, I had some time to reflect. If I did have any prejudiced respect for these people, it diminished and gave way to disgust with no extra resistance. Inconsiderate, stupid pricks.

I've realized that any prejudiced opinions I have towards enlisted people are much closer to pity than respect. If I learn that the person served on the battlefield or something like that, then I start feeling respect for their bravery. But not before then. Too many enlisted people seem to be young, boisterous, inconsiderate assholes that enlisted because it was the only option that didn't include a job asking people if they'd like fries with that or if they prefer paper or plastic. That's not bravery. It's desperation.