Stereotypes

[CrAz3D]

Absurd imagination, hard reality, or somewhere in between?

I say somewhere in between, closer to reality. White southerners drink and shoot things. Black men don't raise their kids. Asians are smart, little old ladies can't drive safely/drive while looking through the steering wheel. So on and so forth.

While that doesn't apply to all white southerners, all black men, and all Asians, it applies to lots of them. Enough of them that a generalization exists.

What say you?

[Rule]

Black men don't raise their kids?  wtf?

Stereotypes are inaccurate basically by definition.   Some will happen to be correct now and then in the sense that a broken clock will occasionally have the right time.

[d&q]

Sounds like a Bayesian fallacy to me. The probability that a deadbeat dad is a black man is not the same as the probability that a black man is a deadbeat dad. In an extreme example, if the only terrorist you've ever seen was Chinese, would you stereotype all Chinese people as terrorists (because obviously, 100% of the terrorists are Chinese), even though you haven't seen the 1.5 billion remaining Chinese people? I think stereotypes are like caricatures - they exaggerate the striking/pronounced behavior exhibited by only a minority of people. That, or maybe I have a penchant for child abandonment.

[while1]

I don't think anyone here thinks that stereotypes are always factual and 100% accurate.  But I do think that people take stereotypes way too seriously (this goes for both those who see nothing wrong with them/ won't hesitate to use them, and those who are quick to take offense by them).  There are definitely stereotypes that accurately describe the majority of a population or have statistically significant evidence to support its claims, but there are also definitely stereotypes that do not.

In regards Crazed's example of fatherless black children, I'm sure if I were to use the Google machine I could find enough studies and statistics to support the claim that compared to any other race in the US, black children are significantly less likely to be living with two parents/ without a father.  Of course, the way I presented my claim is different than the way Crazed presented his stereotype.  I think many people get offended by the way stereotypes come off as ignorant/ without regard to the outliers or minority which the stereotype inaccurately describes, and would respond differently if the underlying generalization was presented more tactfully.

[iago]

I know some people who are stereotypes, and I know people who aren't. I love the way Rule put it - a broken clock will occasionally have the right time.

That being said, I think there are some stereotypes that are more relevant than others. The solvent-abusing homeless people in my city, the effeminate gay man, the socially awkward geek.. those are stereotypes I see every day, but they're far from 100%.

[nslay]

I think stereotypes can be better than random guessing under very specific circumstances (that's not saying much).

Are dark alleys dangerous? Maybe. How about dark alleys in a city you know has a high crime rate?

How about the "Asians are good at math" stereotype:
- Many Asians in the US attend graduate school for technical degrees.

So, it may be accurate (better than random guessing) to say that foreign Asians in the US are technically/mathematically inclined.

On the other hand:
- A large many Chinese in China never attend graduate school (could be for any reason).

I think Chinese are no better than anyone else at math. Very smart Chinese tend to leave China to study abroad (a phenomena not unique to China) and these people are who we see and assume represent China as whole.

[while1]

I don't think that Asian Americans are any naturally smarter than their peers, but that are just more likely to be raised in an environment that stresses the importance and value of their education.

A year or so ago I read the book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell, that gives some interesting insights into Asians and mathematics. 

It amazes me when I look at the education attainment statistics of Asian Americans relative to other ethnic groups/ races. 

I am by no means naturally good at math... I hated math in middle school and high school- I only went up to pre-calculus in high school.  I had to work hard to attain the mathematics minor that I did in undergrad.  Even though I'm Asian, I can't really relate at all to the average Asian American with Asian parents, since I was adopted and raised amongst the white man since infancy.

[iago]

Stereotypes can be self-reinforcing, too. Like, in my city there are serious problems with poverty, alcoholism, drug use, violent crime, etc. amongst the native population. Are natives naturally bad? Of course not. But the fact that society assumes they will be - and that the children are being raised in that type of environment - leads us to the bad situation we're in. The widespread racism seen in my city (and others, too, but mine is far worse for this than anywhere I've been).

It really sucks, though, but I don't know how you break the cycle at this point.

[Rule]

I am not that informed about the native situation, but from reading newspapers, etc. I think trying harder to integrate the natives into the population would help.  It seems most efforts go into isolating them -- putting them in reserves and special schools and giving them special privileges, etc. .  (However I am in favour of some privileges, like scholarships for natives).  While in principle it would be nice to do what we can to preserve their original culture and way of living, that's already been lost.  They can't have it both ways -- back to the old days with tribes and reserves, but with alcohol, drugs, guns, cars, television, and so on.  I think they (and the government) have to let go of it and just integrate as much as possible.

[iago]

I am not that informed about the native situation, but from reading newspapers, etc. I think trying harder to integrate the natives into the population would help.  It seems most efforts go into isolating them -- putting them in reserves and special schools and giving them special privileges, etc. .  (However I am in favour of some privileges, like scholarships for natives).  While in principle it would be nice to do what we can to preserve their original culture and way of living, that's already been lost.  They can't have it both ways -- back to the old days with tribes and reserves, but with alcohol, drugs, guns, cars, television, and so on.  I think they (and the government) have to let go of it and just integrate as much as possible.

Yeah, I don't think the situation is being handled well at all. The whole idea of reserves is stupid - they work in some cases, but are epic fails in most.

This is a long-ish story, but it's really good. I read it all the way through, which is really saying something for me:
http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/03/30/canada-home-to-the-suicide-capital-of-the-world/

Basically, it's about people who live on an isolated reserve. The unemployment rate is something like 90%, they don't have enough homes/food, and they basically all live off government subsidies. It seems to me that if 90% are unemployed and homeless/hungry, they should be learning to build houses, farm, and hunt.

[Sidoh]

Somewhere in between, of course. I don't think stereotypes are a particularly useful tool, and applying them to individuals is rarely productive. However, I think they're pretty often accurate; I don't think they'd exist without there being a grain of truth to them.

I don't attribute stereotypes to genetics (with a few exceptions - like black people being superior athletes). I think doing that is dangerous and often plain stupid.

I expect a lot of computer science majors to smell funny and have nappy, unwashed hair. They often do. They sometimes enjoy Star Wars, anime, and video games. Check, check, and check.

I expect sorority girls to have shrill voices and say things that make me weep in agony and pity for the human race. I expect frat guys to wear pastel polos and care more about the party tomorrow night than their academics and wasted tuition. Yeah, that happens. Granted, I've met lots of lovely people who in no way fit this stereotype, but I'm still not surprised when my cautious suspicion ends up being accurate.

[Newby]

I expect sorority girls to have shrill voices and say things that make me weep in agony and pity for the human race. I expect frat guys to wear pastel polos and care more about the party tomorrow night than their academics and wasted tuition.

As someone who deals with these kinds of people on a near-daily basis, your first stereotype couldn't be much more accurate. And your frat boy stereotype is still pretty accurate, even though nobody in my fraternity really fits that stereotype. It does describe every other guy in every other fraternity on campus, though!

[while1]

I expect sorority girls to have shrill voices and say things that make me weep in agony and pity for the human race. I expect frat guys to wear pastel polos and care more about the party tomorrow night than their academics and wasted tuition.

As someone who deals with these kinds of people on a near-daily basis, your first stereotype couldn't be much more accurate. And your frat boy stereotype is still pretty accurate, even though nobody in my fraternity really fits that stereotype. It does describe every other guy in every other fraternity on campus, though!

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!

[Rule]

I expect sorority girls most people to have shrill voices and say things that make me weep in agony and pity for the human race.

Fixed

[Sidoh]

I expect sorority girls most people to have shrill voices and say things that make me weep in agony and pity for the human race.

Fixed

Hah. I find the dialog I hear between sorority girls egregiously vapid, though.

All I mean to say is that it's a better predictor for vapidity than most things.

[while1]

I expect sorority girls most people to have shrill voices and say things that make me weep in agony and pity for the human race.

Fixed

Sidoh isn't that jaded or full of himself.  Having met him IRL- I can definitely imagine him double facepalming when he's talking to a sorority girl.

[Sidoh]

Heh. I think my social circles afford me the benefit of not having to interact with many people that upset me for being dumb. There are times I start thinking like that, though... people are pretty stupid.

[Rule]

Given how generally stupid and insane people are, it's amazing the world works at all.  "Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives", John Lennon.

[CrAz3D]

Black men don't raise their kids?  wtf?

Stereotypes are inaccurate basically by definition.   Some will happen to be correct now and then in the sense that a broken clock will occasionally have the right time.

I generally agree with the whole "clock is right twice a day" but I also recognize that stereotypes aren't always imagined.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/06/14/us-usa-fathers-idUSN0419185720070614
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/16/us/politics/15cnd-obama.html

Also, black males are more likely to end up in jail/commit crimes.

That said, I suspect (more than suspect) most of this has to do with socio-economic status moreso than race. I guess people should really be more afraid of poor looking people than black looking people. Well, poor people that dress like thugs (damn hoodies!)

I know some people who are stereotypes, and I know people who aren't. I love the way Rule put it - a broken clock will occasionally have the right time.

That being said, I think there are some stereotypes that are more relevant than others. The solvent-abusing homeless people in my city, the effeminate gay man, the socially awkward geek.. those are stereotypes I see every day, but they're far from 100%.

Word re: 100%. Nevertheless, stereotypes inform how we interact with society. I sorta wonder to what degree people base interactions on stereotypes. My guess is a lot, since we don't really learn "facts about people" in school. Without something else to inform our interactions, we basically have to rely on stereotypes.

Stereotypes can be self-reinforcing, too. Like, in my city there are serious problems with poverty, alcoholism, drug use, violent crime, etc. amongst the native population. Are natives naturally bad? Of course not. But the fact that society assumes they will be - and that the children are being raised in that type of environment - leads us to the bad situation we're in. The widespread racism seen in my city (and others, too, but mine is far worse for this than anywhere I've been).

It really sucks, though, but I don't know how you break the cycle at this point.

There is a lawsuit in ... Nebraska? where a tribe is asking the courts to close some liquor stores because natives are more susceptible to booze harming them. *shrug*
Val Kilmer caught all sorts of hell a few years back by saying that most people around his NM ranch are drunks (northern NM rural natives & hispanics are "known" for drinking lots).

I expect sorority girls to have shrill voices and say things that make me weep in agony and pity for the human race. I expect frat guys to wear pastel polos and care more about the party tomorrow night than their academics and wasted tuition.

As someone who deals with these kinds of people on a near-daily basis, your first stereotype couldn't be much more accurate. And your frat boy stereotype is still pretty accurate, even though nobody in my fraternity really fits that stereotype. It does describe every other guy in every other fraternity on campus, though!

A friend is currently attending UNC. I met up with him there last summer and he remarked that "if the frats at NMSU weren't so douchey and were cool like here, I would've joined." The frats didnt change; my friend changed. He was dressed in stereotypical frat swag (boat shoes, whatever khaki shorts, etc). Whatever, but it isn't that the frats changed much. Frats seem to be equally douchey across the US (he introduced me to some frat-friends he has there, and they rather resembled the frat kids I knew in undergrad).