Hi guys

[Ender]

Hi everyone,

It's been a while. I graduated college and am now looking for jobs. An English major makes jobs a bit difficult - but I was never interested in money. However, it's practically important, and I thought I would rejoin these forums to get back in touch with my programming roots, hoping to find employment as a software engineer, or independent income as a web designer.

As regards these two goals: (1) software engineering jobs and (2) independent web design, I was wondering what are the best languages and skills that I should pick up to make myself desirable? I'm proficient in Java and Python, good with SQL, rusty with PHP/HTML/CSS. I have the good fortune of being able to put already one IT/programming job on my resume, where I worked as a report writer composing SQL queries and outputting the results in an Excel spreadsheet. I worked this job for a year and a half.

So, if you were in my shoes, what kind of jobs would you go after, what websites would you use (monster.com, craigslist, etc.) and what languages/skills would you acquire in your free time to land a gig?

I appreciate any advice. Really, my plan is to travel, and I have a certain contempt for salaried jobs that would threaten to get in the way. I find temp programming jobs very interesting, as I'm thinking about travelling in the winter and spring. This is also why independent web design has such an appeal for me.

It feels good to reconnect! I had forgotten that I had this resource. But I suppose it's a good resource for all of us. I checked my profile and realized I've been registered for seven years! I must have been in this clan for over five years. Wow! If any of you are in the Chicago area, I'd be open to meeting up.

best,
Andrew

[iago]

Holy crap you're alive! Do you use FB? We created a private x86 fb group, I can add you to it.

In response to your question, the big languages right now are Ruby (especially Rails) and .net. Others are around, but the jobs seem to be those.

[Ender]

Lol iago. Thanks for the warm greeting. I just lost a winning chess game so I was bitter until I read your reply. I wonder, has x86 shifted over to facebook? I disabled mine a long time ago but it might be worth reenabling. Let me know. Hope all is well with you!

[iago]

Nah, we haven't really shifted, it's more of a backup and/or alternative.

[Blaze]

I almost feel like I'm missing out on something, but then again, Facebook, so, not really.

[Ender]

I don't like Facebook either, blaze. As soon as I reenabled it it made me feel uncomfortable.

iago: Thanks for your advice. I suppose I'll start learning Ruby and Rails. Last time I checked, .NET wasn't free, and Visual Studio didn't run too well on OS X. If these things have changed, I could possibly warm up to it. Otherwise I'm generally averse to Microsoft products.

By the way: I see Rule has been made a member. I was always pulling for him. I'm glad :-)

[iago]

Yeah, I have super mixed feelings about Facebook, but ultimately I'd lose track of half my friends or more if I didn't have it so I bite the bullet.

.NET can be used on non-MS systems using Mono, which is an implementation of the .NET standard, but I don't think that'd be worth your time. I'd say look at Ruby/Rails.

[Ender]

One more question iago. (I'd be interested in others' feedback as well.) How important is a comp sci degree in getting programming jobs? I was talking to a friend the other day, a professor in art history, who stressed that we live in a world of credentials, and recommended I look into masters programs. Do you think a masters would be worth it? Or do employers look beyond the credentials to get a sense of a person's competence and intelligence?

It just occurred to me that Myndfyre studied history and poli sci in college, foregoing computer science. He landed a job with Microsoft, didn't he? How did he go about it? Did he pursue a Masters afterward, or did he just do a good job of conveying his skills and talents to employers?

[iago]

I couldn't really say. My degree helped me meet the right people, but doesn't directly help in getting a job (keeping in mind that I work in Security - a fairly specialized field).

[while1]

How important is a comp sci degree in getting programming jobs?

I have a certain contempt for salaried jobs

I'd say that these kind of jobs, a CS degree will be of more importance than the freelance/ temp type gigs. 

It really all depends though, while job postings may say the minimum requirements is a BS in CS or w/e, many will be flexible towards applicants if you have relevant past work experience and/ or a portfolio of work.  I think you're best bet is to find employment where an employer is willing to take a chance on you so that you can gain some experience that can be put on paper.

[Ender]

How important is a comp sci degree in getting programming jobs?

I have a certain contempt for salaried jobs

I'd say that these kind of jobs, a CS degree will be of more importance than the freelance/ temp type gigs. 

It really all depends though, while job postings may say the minimum requirements is a BS in CS or w/e, many will be flexible towards applicants if you have relevant past work experience and/ or a portfolio of work.  I think you're best bet is to find employment where an employer is willing to take a chance on you so that you can gain some experience that can be put on paper.

Good to know that you think employers will take a chance. I was leaning towards creating a portfolio. Sounds like it will be a plus.

[while1]

Don't get me wrong, a CS degree is definitely worth it's value because it easily open more doors.  You're going to be at a disadvantage on paper compared to a new college graduate with a CS degree because certain assumptions won't be able to be made when recruiters and hiring managers look at your resume, and you may not get a second glance due to them using it as a weeding out factor... this is because on paper many employers equate X years of relevant experience to a 4 year bachelors in CS (where X > 4). 

With that said, short-term contract and freelance programming gigs are a dime a dozen, you may still find at first getting an interview difficult.  I can't really say for sure though, as I've never been in your position.  But since you've stated that you're not exclusively looking for a salaried w/ benefits type gig, and open to doing work with less stability and more risk, I imagine you're going to find that you're most likely not going to be in competition with the bulk of the new college grads with a CS degree, especially not the best of them since they will already have jobs or grad skool plans.

You could try using rent a coder type services, but IMO you shouldn't waste your time and would be better off finding a shitty non-programming day job to help pay to the bills and instead focus on a portfolio. 

I'm not sure where you get your that .NET development isn't free.  The free Express Editions of VS are great.  These editions lack certain features that the paid editions have, but the missing features are by far "extras" and non-essential to development.  The only cost to development is the operating system, and complaining about that is petty because I'm sure if you PM'd me we could figure something out.  If you're doing web development and design, I think you're going to make your life easier having multiple platforms to test on anyways.  Sure the days of having to support IE6 are increasingly fading.  I was just as adverse to Microsoft as you 4+ years ago, however in my opinion their treatment and the tools and ease of development they provide developers is most definitely worthy of praise when I compare it to the likes of Apple.  Also, Mono has taken great strides compared to 4-5 years ago, at least in terms of developing multi-platform applications, although I can't speak towards its support for ASP.NET development.

But anyways, I'd say go with Ruby/RoR just because I think you may find it easier to find someone willing to take a chance on you.

[MyndFyre]

Don't get me wrong, a CS degree is definitely worth it's value because it easily open more doors.  You're going to be at a disadvantage on paper compared to a new college graduate with a CS degree because certain assumptions won't be able to be made when recruiters and hiring managers look at your resume, and you may not get a second glance due to them using it as a weeding out factor.

This can be true for a while.*  I don't have a CS degree, but I took the time to get some certifications and found that my hireability went way up (well, it helped that I knew what I was talking about, but it's hard to even get an interview when you don't have a CS degree OR certs).

* I've found, and am part of, a substantial portion of interviewers who are skeptical of a CS degree.  I hired two CS graduates as Jr. Devs at Terralever and both of them were total busts.  On the other hand, I've found that self-taught people who are really passionate about the work are generally miles better than the typical student.  Having said so, it depends on what you need: if you're doing LOB apps, you just need someone who can get stuff done, and that will generally be a self-taught person or someone with experience.  If you need specific kinds of computation done, such as a custom data structure, you might get better bang for your buck with a CS student.  (Or, you could find someone like me, who was self-taught but anal enough to try to learn about all the data structures and algorithms and can inexplicably talk about those with at least some level of knowledge).

[Rule]

Success is generally a combination of obtaining the right skills, making the right connections, and luck, with perhaps equal importance on each.  However, I would generally prioritize obtaining skills.  You can afford to spend a few years doing this.  You don't want to bullshit in front of people, and hopefully there is a deeper reason you are doing what you are doing than success (e.g. reputation, recognition, money, etc.). anyways

You can obtain skills through a degree, or you can teach yourself those same skills.  The benefit of being self taught is you can completely focus on what you think is important, and ignore the rest.  If you are good at figuring out what is important for you and what isn't, then this will be MUCH more efficient than class-learning. The drawback is you have to be self motivated, and you won't get connections by sitting alone in a library reading books.  Moreover, without some sort of well defined projects, it will be hard to know what is or isn't important to learn, and you will likely forget what you read without some sort of "hands on" experience.  Furthermore, the degree and in particular, where you do your degree, will help with connections more than being self taught will -- you will be surrounded by people with similar interests. 

The best of all worlds (esp if you like research) is a PhD at a reputable university, or in a reputable lab/research group, in my opinion.  You are free to teach yourself things -- that's largely the point -- and simultaneously you will be in a great environment that will help you focus your self study and meet interesting people.  However, keeping in mind that the attrition rate at some places is about 50% (or so I've been told), it's clearly not for everyone.

PS. In regards to your initial question about a masters helping you get jobs.... it completely depends on what types of jobs you want, even within the same industry (e.g. software engineering, computer science research, etc).   My general sense is that it will affect the type of work that you do in the future more than it will affect your income. If I had to choose between a random guy with a master's degree, and a random guy who had 2 years of industry experience, I'd probably choose the guy with experience.  On the other hand, if someone did exceptionally well in their master's (very creative research, etc.) then I would go for them.

[iago]

IMO, the best of all worlds is to get involved in opensource development (your own projects or others'). You get experience, skills, connections, etc.

[Rule]

IMO, the best of all worlds is to get involved in opensource development (your own projects or others'). You get experience, skills, connections, etc.

Hard to support yourself doing that, though...

[Ender]

I thought I would update you guys. I got an IT job, which is not bad for my first job out of college. It's a six month contract, and after I finish I will apply for software engineering jobs. My hope is that with this job on my resume, and my part-time job in college, both employing SQL, Unix, and Java, I will have enough 'credentials' to be taken seriously for software development. In the meanwhile I might want to learn .NET and RoR.

While an English degree is a hurdle in the short run, I think that in the long run I'll be happy that I did it. While it would be nice to be rich, I don't put too much stock in the idea. It's more important to me to be able to live where I want, like the people I work with and have fun on the job. And, ultimately, it's the immaterial things that make me happy.

NOTE: The scary thing about my job is the commute. I don't yet have a car (my cousin totalled my old one) so I'm biking ten miles to work every day. There and back. It's a nightmare. I hate biking across intersections. I hate biking across traffic. SCARY.

ALSO: I'll be getting a car in the next 2-3 weeks and then I'll be driving to work every day from my new apartment. It will be a 40-70 minute commute depending on traffic. This is also scary. I haven't driven more than a dozen times in the past five years. I only just started driving on the highway a few weeks ago. Is anyone else scared by driving? It seems to me that smart people are scared of it and stupid people aren't - because the stupid people don't understand the physics of accidents!

[iago]

IMO, the best of all worlds is to get involved in opensource development (your own projects or others'). You get experience, skills, connections, etc.

Hard to support yourself doing that, though...

True, in the short term. The goal of that is to build up a portfolio and contacts and to put yourself in a position to find something good.

[Explicit]

Have you considered easing your way into the field by first being a technical writer/editor?

[while1]

Have you considered easing your way into the field by first being a technical writer/editor?

That's a good suggestion to consider actually.  Depending on the job, I think that demonstrating your technical knowledge and abilities through your technical writing and interaction with those whose duties are purely technical would most definitely expose you to the right people who would be able to vouch.

[dark_drake]

ALSO: I'll be getting a car in the next 2-3 weeks and then I'll be driving to work every day from my new apartment. It will be a 40-70 minute commute depending on traffic. This is also scary. I haven't driven more than a dozen times in the past five years. I only just started driving on the highway a few weeks ago. Is anyone else scared by driving? It seems to me that smart people are scared of it and stupid people aren't - because the stupid people don't understand the physics of accidents!

Haha! I'm horrified of driving everyday in Austin, TX. People here like to hang out in my blind spot, accelerate when I try to pass (and then slow down when I move back into their lane), and generally are infinitely more distracted than the ones I dealt with in the Rockies. I was almost rear-ended today because some guy thought going 60mph in a 45mph zone while screwing around with his cell phone was a good idea. I saw him in my rearview mirror, slammed on my accelerator, and, thankfully, he looked up at the last minute and decided braking might be a good idea.