Author Topic: Request  (Read 24698 times)

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Offline zorm

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Re: Request
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2012, 04:12:14 pm »
I believe that cities and towns should have the right to reject for-profit businesses they don't deem a positive influence in the community, but it should always come down to a vote.  If a city doesn't want a casino built, they should have that right.  The issue comes becomes "more interesting" when it's something like bigotry, but I still feel it should be up to the community.  I'd be far more interested in a community banning all fast food restaurants rather than just the bigot ones, though. The exception to this should be that there be no discrimination to the well being people or a group in a community; there shouldn't be towns banning abortion clinics, as that potentially affects the health and well being of women, but I'm okay with towns banning gay bathhouses.  It is a slippery slope though; I don't disagree.

I'm sure I haven't thought out all the different parts of this, but yeah.  It would be a lot easier if everyone just stopped hating everyone.

Remember, letting the majority choose the rights of the minority is a horrible idea.
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Offline Sidoh

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Re: Request
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2012, 10:27:59 pm »
City planners and stuff deny permits for companies all the time for much less.

In general, I don't like democracy. People are fucking stupid. Don't let them decide. Tell them that this is fucking stupid and do it for them.

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Request
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2012, 10:17:57 am »
...much different.

govt cant/shouldnt act against someone because of the person's views.

we used to let govt do that, and govt kept all the black people in the back of the bus...majority = bad.

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Request
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2012, 12:37:59 pm »
not really.

and now they reliably vote for more services and fewer taxes. people are fucking dumb, and i think there exists a solution superior to democracy. democracy fucking sucks.

yeah, yeah. i don't think this guy should be denied the uh... "right" to have a restaurant in an area full of people who think he's a prick. i'm just mad at people who think they're doing something good by buying chic-fil-a.

Offline Rule

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Re: Request
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2012, 04:24:26 pm »
not really.

and now they reliably vote for more services and fewer taxes. people are fucking dumb, and i think there exists a solution superior to democracy. democracy fucking sucks.

yeah, yeah. i don't think this guy should be denied the uh... "right" to have a restaurant in an area full of people who think he's a prick. i'm just mad at people who think they're doing something good by buying chic-fil-a.

Ideally we would want an intelligent, rational, humane, and selfless dictator.  But I'm not sure how we could guarantee that.  Smart people aren't necessarily trustworthy or acting in the interests of society.




Offline Blaze

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Re: Request
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2012, 04:57:34 pm »
I know, let's build an all-knowing AI and make it in charge of things!  I'm probably the first person to think up this foolproof idea!
And like a fool I believed myself, and thought I was somebody else...

Offline iago

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Re: Request
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2012, 06:13:09 pm »
not really.

and now they reliably vote for more services and fewer taxes. people are fucking dumb, and i think there exists a solution superior to democracy. democracy fucking sucks.

yeah, yeah. i don't think this guy should be denied the uh... "right" to have a restaurant in an area full of people who think he's a prick. i'm just mad at people who think they're doing something good by buying chic-fil-a.

Ideally we would want an intelligent, rational, humane, and selfless dictator.  But I'm not sure how we could guarantee that.  Smart people aren't necessarily trustworthy or acting in the interests of society.

Make a law that politicians aren't allowed to own property or make money - their basic needs are provided for, plus some extras, and that's it. Then the only people who would want to be politicians are the non-greedy ones.

Also completely flawless!

Offline Blaze

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Re: Request
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2012, 06:18:04 pm »
Homeless people: the next politicians.  I vote for this to be made into a reality TV series.
And like a fool I believed myself, and thought I was somebody else...

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Request
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2012, 12:12:18 pm »
not really.

and now they reliably vote for more services and fewer taxes. people are fucking dumb, and i think there exists a solution superior to democracy. democracy fucking sucks.

yeah, yeah. i don't think this guy should be denied the uh... "right" to have a restaurant in an area full of people who think he's a prick. i'm just mad at people who think they're doing something good by buying chic-fil-a.

Ideally we would want an intelligent, rational, humane, and selfless dictator.  But I'm not sure how we could guarantee that.  Smart people aren't necessarily trustworthy or acting in the interests of society.

Hey - worked for Bhutan! :)

Offline while1

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Re: Request
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2012, 08:51:57 pm »
not really.

and now they reliably vote for more services and fewer taxes. people are fucking dumb, and i think there exists a solution superior to democracy. democracy fucking sucks.

yeah, yeah. i don't think this guy should be denied the uh... "right" to have a restaurant in an area full of people who think he's a prick. i'm just mad at people who think they're doing something good by buying chic-fil-a.

Ideally we would want an intelligent, rational, humane, and selfless dictator.  But I'm not sure how we could guarantee that.  Smart people aren't necessarily trustworthy or acting in the interests of society.

We'd want all of that plus someone not afraid to make hard, unpopular decisions for long term prosperity instead of short term gains.  Which ultimately, it's always very risky to give someone power when they don't give a fuck about what other people think.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 08:54:24 pm by while1 »
I tend to edit my topics and replies frequently.

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Offline Ender

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Re: Request
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2012, 09:04:14 pm »
City planners and stuff deny permits for companies all the time for much less.

In general, I don't like democracy. People are fucking stupid. Don't let them decide. Tell them that this is fucking stupid and do it for them.

I think this is too simplistic. How do you determine that a person is stupid? I have a relative who is a bit backwards in his social and political views. He makes anti-gay jokes and hates President Obama. He never went to college, couldn't solve an algebraic equation, and has trouble with words and spelling. But he can also take almost anyone that I know in a fight; he can drive his car all the way across the country (coast to coast) in three days; and busts his ass working overtime to give everything to his kids with a low-to-decent paying job. These last three things I tend to value more than political views, high school mathematics, and literacy. Would you deny him the right to vote?

not really.

and now they reliably vote for more services and fewer taxes. people are fucking dumb, and i think there exists a solution superior to democracy. democracy fucking sucks.

yeah, yeah. i don't think this guy should be denied the uh... "right" to have a restaurant in an area full of people who think he's a prick. i'm just mad at people who think they're doing something good by buying chic-fil-a.

Ideally we would want an intelligent, rational, humane, and selfless dictator.  But I'm not sure how we could guarantee that.  Smart people aren't necessarily trustworthy or acting in the interests of society.

Taking this a bit further, I think it's impossible for a single person to have a complete understanding of concepts like justice, fairness, social equality and tolerance. Each idea is a work in progress, and requires the collective to refine it. Any one person has prejudices; no single person is flexible enough to adapt to every stride of progress. More importantly, and perhaps harder to grasp, is the fact that any single person is limited to a single perspective. I think it's hard to understand the significance of this statement - i.e., how incomplete an individual perspective really is, when taken with (compared to and contrasted with) the whole. It's a question of values, really. Two people can arrive at opposite conclusions on a matter at hand, and both be right, given that they both have faith in their values. If I learned anything from mathematics, it's that nothing can be proven without an assumption. The same is true for 'right' and 'wrong', 'rational' and 'irrational', 'smart' and 'stupid' and 'correct' and 'incorrect'. To place any idea into one of these dichotomies is to make an assumption.

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Request
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2012, 11:05:40 pm »
I think this is too simplistic. How do you determine that a person is stupid? I have a relative who is a bit backwards in his social and political views. He makes anti-gay jokes and hates President Obama. He never went to college, couldn't solve an algebraic equation, and has trouble with words and spelling. But he can also take almost anyone that I know in a fight; he can drive his car all the way across the country (coast to coast) in three days; and busts his ass working overtime to give everything to his kids with a low-to-decent paying job. These last three things I tend to value more than political views, high school mathematics, and literacy. Would you deny him the right to vote?

Yes. But to be fair, I'd also deny myself the right to vote.

Offline deadly7

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Re: Request
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2012, 11:20:04 pm »
I think this is too simplistic. How do you determine that a person is stupid? I have a relative who is a bit backwards in his social and political views. He makes anti-gay jokes and hates President Obama. He never went to college, couldn't solve an algebraic equation, and has trouble with words and spelling. But he can also take almost anyone that I know in a fight; he can drive his car all the way across the country (coast to coast) in three days; and busts his ass working overtime to give everything to his kids with a low-to-decent paying job. These last three things I tend to value more than political views, high school mathematics, and literacy. Would you deny him the right to vote?
Holy false equivalencies, Batman. I'm glad you know someone you find personally great, was there an actual useful bit in that otherwise irrelevant story? You already said this person is uneducated, bigoted, and otherwise incapable of having a well-formulated political opinion, I don't see how anything else you said helps your case.
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Offline Ender

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Re: Request
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2012, 11:49:24 pm »
I think this is too simplistic. How do you determine that a person is stupid? I have a relative who is a bit backwards in his social and political views. He makes anti-gay jokes and hates President Obama. He never went to college, couldn't solve an algebraic equation, and has trouble with words and spelling. But he can also take almost anyone that I know in a fight; he can drive his car all the way across the country (coast to coast) in three days; and busts his ass working overtime to give everything to his kids with a low-to-decent paying job. These last three things I tend to value more than political views, high school mathematics, and literacy. Would you deny him the right to vote?
Holy false equivalencies, Batman. I'm glad you know someone you find personally great, was there an actual useful bit in that otherwise irrelevant story? You already said this person is uneducated, bigoted, and otherwise incapable of having a well-formulated political opinion, I don't see how anything else you said helps your case.

The point was that it is dangerous to say "people are stupid". This relative of mine might fit the description by one criteria, but by another he clearly doesn't. You might say: "Okay, Ender, you have proved that he is strong, hardworking, and dependable. These are not traits of intelligence." I should follow up by saying: he is capable of telling great stories, and entertaining. He clearly has a certain intelligence, but not another. Which is why it's dangerous to say, "people are stupid", and dismiss them.

I harp on this point because I used to be of that mentality, and now I no longer am.

I ask whether we should deny him the right to vote. He never went to college but he is not uneducated. The military provides a unique education. I said he makes anti-gay jokes, which bothers me a lot, but he gets along well with gays. I said he's a bit backward in his social and political opinions, but that doesn't mean he isn't pragmatic about other political issues. You could meet many liberals who are a lot more progressive than him but have far less practical ideas on government spending, big gov't vs. small, etc. The point is you can't rule people in two categories: 'stupid' and 'not stupid', 'capable of voting' and 'not capable of voting'.

The reason I bring him up is not because I am trying to boast about my idols (which you insinuate). He is not my idol. I could easily tell you the people who are. But the reason is that he is so very different from me that I have learned a lot from him. He and many others have changed the way I think about people. I'm sharing my experience, that's all.

Why so provocative?

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Request
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2012, 02:19:36 am »
I have respect for lots of people who I wish didn't vote.