Author Topic: Abortions  (Read 23893 times)

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Offline Sidoh

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2005, 07:23:08 pm »
Hehe, you do.

Let me try to find the direct quote...

Success!  I actually found a lot of material.  :)

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Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers? (Job 31:15).

Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God (Psalm 22:9-10).

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be (Psalm 139:13-16).

This is what the LORD says--he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you … (Isaiah 44:2).

Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all you who remain of the house of Israel, you whom I have upheld since you were conceived, and have carried since your birth. Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you (Isaiah 46:3-4).

And now the LORD says--he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength (Isaiah 49:5).

The word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations" (Jeremiah 1:4-5).

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy" (Luke 1:41-42, 44).

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2005, 08:27:57 pm »
The third is talking about preaching.  And yes, Lutherans do not allow women to preach.
They don't?  I've seen at least 2 Lutheran churches where the teaching pastor was a woman.

Then, out of curiosity, what's the context of the "I've known you since you were conceived"?  It seems that context is important :)

As I was trying to say, you have to be careful with quoting from the Bible :P
Generally I've found that the Bible is fairly clear when it's being symbolic.  For example, the Revelation is written metaphorically; undoubtedly, these are what John experienced.  However, he couldn't describe what he experienced precisely; much was written using comparisons that he and we could understand.

Allright.  Time for my soapbox.

Wikipedia defines life as having the following 5 characteristics:
Quote
Growth
Metabolism, consuming, transforming and storing energy/mass; growing by absorbing and reorganizing mass; excreting waste
Motion, either moving itself, or having internal motion
Reproduction, the ability to create entities that are similar to, yet separate from, itself
Response to stimuli - the ability to measure properties of its surrounding environment, and act upon certain conditions.
An embryo never ceases to exist prior a fetus coming into existence; a fetus doesn't cease to exist when an infant is born.  These labels are simply states of development of the same being.  The first four are obviously all possible; like it or not, a fetus or embryo is "like us."  It may not have the same structures as we, but when you're building a house, you know that it's going to be a house, even when just the foundation is there.

The last criterion -- response to stimuli -- is not a commonly-known thing.  It was something I had to look up.  But it seems that prenatal development and stimulus-response is well-documented.

From here, it's obvious.  This is not only a being -- but a being capable of intelligent life.  If you leave a dog in the car in the sun "they'll fry you on the six o'clock news" (Jeff Foxworthy).  The dog is just as dependent on you for life as the child is to the mother.

What it boils down to is that people don't want to take responsibility for their actions.  If you want to have sex, you have to be prepared for the eventuality that you're going to have a child.  The 100% guaranteed effective way at not getting pregnant is not to have sex.  But another person shouldn't have to suffer because you had to get busy with someone.  Once that person is alive -- once that person is conceived -- he or she has the right to live.  That person can't defend himself or herself, though; and government's role is to defend the weak from the strong.

In my opinion, a secular society can't outlaw abortion in cases of rape.  Threatening the life of the mother is a gray area IMO as well.  It can outlaw abortion in other circumstances, though.  Threatening the quality of life?  Tough.  Don't go having sex all willy-nilly if you don't want to face the music.
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Offline Sidoh

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2005, 08:34:29 pm »
MyndFire, I'm in almost complete agreement with your views.

They don't? I've seen at least 2 Lutheran churches where the teaching pastor was a woman.
Sorry, I should have been more specific.

There are several Synods of the Lutheran Church, some more liberal than others.  The liberal ones are allow women to preach, unconfirmed people to commune, etc.

I'm LCMS (Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod).

Here's a nice list of a bunch of different Lutheran Synods... I didn't even know there were that many! o.o.

The only ones I was aware of (for the most part) were:

LCWC (Wisconsin, even more conservative than LCMS)
LCMS
ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America)

Most of my Uncles on my mom's side of the family are ELCA.

Offline GameSnake

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2005, 10:46:42 pm »
Ok to help clarify my topic, I was giving a good example of a school debate script since thats kinda the topic. Second off in response to Sidoh: Bacteria is living but so is a worm. You dont really care about the millions of worms killed barbarically with hooks and such. Point is we dont care about bacteria it is simple celled organisms that have no concept of reality. Sooo my point was when is the age we consider a human human?

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2005, 10:52:16 pm »
Ok to help clarify my topic, I was giving a good example of a school debate script since thats kinda the topic. Second off in response to Sidoh: Bacteria is living but so is a worm. You dont really care about the millions of worms killed barbarically with hooks and such. Point is we dont care about bacteria it is simple celled organisms that have no concept of reality. Sooo my point was when is the age we consider a human human?
Do we have to consider them human even?  Like I said, you can't leave a dog in your car.  People get in trouble if they just go and shoot a dog.  "You leave a poodle in your car and they'll fry you on the six o'clock news!"
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Offline Sidoh

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2005, 10:53:44 pm »
Ok to help clarify my topic, I was giving a good example of a school debate script since thats kinda the topic. Second off in response to Sidoh: Bacteria is living but so is a worm. You dont really care about the millions of worms killed barbarically with hooks and such. Point is we dont care about bacteria it is simple celled organisms that have no concept of reality. Sooo my point was when is the age we consider a human human?

Hehe, yep.  A Human zygote is also distinguisable from any other form of zygote, though.  I just thought that was an interesting point.

Offline GameSnake

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2005, 10:58:09 pm »
So does anyone care to debate when a human is a human and has a human reality-concept mind?

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2005, 10:59:50 pm »
So does anyone care to debate when a human is a human and has a human reality-concept mind?
Um, what?

Anyway, that's a sompletely subjective matter.

Offline GameSnake

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2005, 11:02:31 pm »
Thats why you debate it :D. I mean i'm asking when do you think a human can realize it is alive? I would say well before then should be the legal limit for abortion rights.

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2005, 11:17:36 pm »
Thats why you debate it :D. I mean i'm asking when do you think a human can realize it is alive? I would say well before then should be the legal limit for abortion rights.
When are your first memories?  That's when I would say a person can realize they're a human.

If you ask me, that's not a very good model of when abortion is appropriate.

Offline iago

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2005, 11:27:37 pm »
Although you'll piss people off by leaving a dog in a car, it's still not considered murder.  Animals are killed all the time. 

Offline Joe

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2005, 11:57:36 pm »
I have absolutely no opinion either way on this.

For it: If she was raped she shouldn't need to have a child. (Its murder!)
Against it: Its murder! (What if she was raped?)
I'd personally do as Joe suggests

You might be right about that, Joe.


Offline Furious

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2005, 09:52:56 am »
I'll start off with my opinio on the original topic, I believe once the embryo has developed a nervous system, it then should not be allowed to be, aborted? Although the heart and actualy nervous system don't start to appear at the same time I still feel that when the nervous system and heart are both active, that it should be illegal to have an abortion after that point.

Here's what I think about the bible...

 - It was written 600 years after the death of Jesus Christ, so how can any of it be 'the words of Jesus Christ', nobody he knew was alive for 600 years, sorry to burst your bubbles.

 - It has 2 different stories for the creation of man, 1) Adam & Eve ; 2) God created man in a day ( or w/e it is )

And these are coming from the debates we've had in my English class ( it tends to get off topic easily ;x ), I have personally never read the bible, been in a church, or had any affiliation with any religion.  But my English teacher has read the bible, new and old testaments and those two points of view we both shared.
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Offline iago

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2005, 11:00:58 am »
I am reasonably sure that there is a nonphysical part of us that separates humans from other animals.  Self-awareness, or sentience, are good words for it.  It's impossible to see or feel or examine it, but I think it's there.  Many call it a "soul", but I'm not religious, so I don't.  But it's what makes a human a person.

What I don't know is when a persons soul forms.  It seems very likely that it is created, or begins to be created, as conception.  If this is true, then abortions are bad. 

However, another point: in certain exceptional circumstances, at least in some states, it's acceptable to murder somebody.  Well, they call it "execute".  But it's really no different from an abortion, since it's still taking away a human life :)

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Abortions
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2005, 11:20:45 am »
- It was written 600 years after the death of Jesus Christ, so how can any of it be 'the words of Jesus Christ', nobody he knew was alive for 600 years, sorry to burst your bubbles.
If God created the universe, he wouldn't create it with C14 enough to predict the age of some object.  Carbon dating is a completely useless practice if you're religious and you believe God created the universe.  Don't be sorry for "bursting my bubble" because you didn't.

Additionally, who's to say the copy of the bible that was carbon dated was the original one?  It could have easily been a copy made and those were the first scrolls found.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2005, 11:41:45 am by Sidoh »