Is Visual Basic a good beginner's language?

[iago]

My personal opinion is no.  I think that my opinion counts because Basic and Visual Basic were my first languages, and I used and loved them for years before I started doing other stuff. 

In my opinion, VB creates bad habits and makes it harder to use a powerful language.  Moving from VB to another language is painful as hell, so beginners get stuck using just VB and they are never really good programmers.  But that's just a personal opinion. 

In any case, it was discussed on Slashdot today, so have a look:
http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/06/03/07/2046258.shtml


<edit> I just read the first few responses, and an overwhelming majority seem to agree with me.

Best response:

And in other questions....
Dear Republican National Committee: Would Hillary be a good president?
Dear Osama Bin Laden: Would you like to come to my bar mitzvah?
Dear Eagles fans: Would you be willing to sign Terrell Owens again?

[MyndFyre]

no

Take C# or Java any day.

[Sidoh]

As long as you keep an open mind and you understand that other programming languages might be significantly different, I don't think it matters too much which one you start out with.  The first language I learned (or started to learn) was C++ about 5 years ago.  I didn't do much with it, but it's basically how I learned to actually program (I'd done quite a bit of webdev stuff before that).

Since the general opinion I have of people that learn to program is somewhat low (the people I've met other than friends I have here are pretty dull/dim when it comes to programming minds), it probably would be best to learn something a bit less "unique" (not saying that's a good thing) before "taking on" VB.

[Newby]

It's a great language. For what it's designed to do. Compared to other languages, it isn't very useful.

[zorm]

I'd say yes because as the name states its a basic language. Being really easy to use is a huge plus for beginning programmers as they can get results fast. Also a person who understands programming and the general concept will quickly realize the limits of VB and move on to other languages if they need more control and power. Where as people who generally can't handle VB are unlikely to move on and unlikely to succeed with any other language.

The whole "bad habits" is rather silly. People will develop new habits when they move to a new programming language. I don't believe habits carry over between languages except in the case where a user tries to replicate the behavior of one language in another instead of taking advantage of said languages native abilities.

[igimo1]

They're not even bad habits, necessarily; just things that have been done for you. If you moved on to other languages, it wouldn't be breaking a habit by learning how to do that previous operation (that the compiler originally did for you), would it?

[Sidoh]

The whole "bad habits" is rather silly. People will develop new habits when they move to a new programming language. I don't believe habits carry over between languages except in the case where a user tries to replicate the behavior of one language in another instead of taking advantage of said languages native abilities.

They do develop, but in a different sense.  "Habits" doesn't necessarily summarize the property quite as well as other explanations.  If someone gets used to Visual Basic and they try a new language, they'll probably find it quite a bit harder to begin with.  While it's obvious that learning other languages takes more time (Visual Basic is the "bottom" of the totem pole it terms of learning complications), it's also important to realize that some people are just fine sticking with Visual Basic.  They'll form biased opinions saying "Visual Basic is so much easier!"  Obviously, it is to begin with.  As you learn a new language, difficult details turn into the intuitively obvious.  Syntax complications become second nature.

Until a few years ago, when I was presented with the fact there was a more efficient (but initially more complicated) way to solve a given problem, I would be only slightly interested.  I'd look at it, and then be scared away from the initial confusion it caused me.  A few years ago (especially this year -- if you haven't guessed, I'm talking about Math), I started to realize that if I gave the given solution more of my attention, I would be able to understand it (this holds true for every problem I've been confronted with in which I hold sufficient knowledge to solve in the first place).  I may have to practice it for a while, but after it's all said and done, I will appreciate the efficiency provided by the new found algorithm.

They're not even bad habits, necessarily; just things that have been done for you. If you moved on to other languages, it wouldn't be breaking a habit by learning how to do that previous operation (that the compiler originally did for you), would it?

See the above.

When you're prested with a problem that requires the parsing of a string, you might think to utilize Visual Basic's Split() function.  If you're using C to solve the same problem, you're obviously not going to be using a pre-coded function to split/iterate through the string.  If a new-comer to the C language is presented with this problem, they might logically conclude that it would be much easier for them to solve the problem using Visual Basic instead of C.  Initially, they'd rather not learn a new solution to the problem.

[Joe]

I personally have mixed feelings. Sure, it has a cruddy syntax. Yes, it's forgiving of even the stupidest things.

But, I programmed in VB until "the very end", pretty much. I used DLLs, wrote my own, wrote binary chat clients, and learned the concepts behind real programming. From there on, all I had to do to advance to a new language was apply those concepts in a different language, which was amazingly easy. I've learned Java with next to no effort.

[Sidoh]

I personally have mixed feelings. Sure, it has a cruddy syntax. Yes, it's forgiving of even the stupidest things.

But, I programmed in VB until "the very end", pretty much. I used DLLs, wrote my own, wrote binary chat clients, and learned the concepts behind real programming. From there on, all I had to do to advance to a new language was apply those concepts in a different language, which was amazingly easy. I've learned Java with next to no effort.

Anyone that's willing to change what they're used to can move from one language to the next with little non-enjoyable effort (assuming you like programming, which is pretty safe to say in case of everyone participating in this discussion).

[Blaze]

I'd say no, because it allows you to get away with way too much.  My grade 10 Comp Sci teacher said it was a great beginners language, he didn't even know the damn language.

What it IS good for is VERY quickly piecing something together.

[Sidoh]

I'd say no, because it allows you to get away with way too much.  My grade 10 Comp Sci teacher said it was a great beginners language, he didn't even know the damn language.

What's wrong with "getting away" with too much?  As long as people are willing to accept other languages are less lenient with sloppy/bad code, they'll be fine.  In fact, I think it's better to start with a more lenient programming language.  If you try programming for two hours and get nothing but errors (not uncommon if you're starting with a language like C), you're likely to become frustrated.  If you start with Visual Basic, chances are you'll run into far fewer problems.  I think its leniency is a definite plus, as far as a beginners language goes.

What it IS good for is VERY quickly piecing something together.

It's not too bad for larger scale projects (the attendance/grade system my school uses is made in VB -- lmao, I have stories about it.  The install instructions actually say "Don't worry about the next few error messages.  those are okay" and things to that affect.  My boss and I had a good laugh of that...), but other languages have undeniable advantages over VB.

[iago]

There are several bad habits that people pick up. 

The major one I see is total lack of error handling.  A VB programmer will use "on error resume" on everything, then move to C and do nothing.  I admit that Java has the same issue (.... throws Exception), but at least the program generally ends and the programmer realizes that he's an idiot. 

except in the case where a user tries to replicate the behavior of one language in another instead of taking advantage of said languages native abilities.

I see that very frequently.  Especially with string handling. 

[Sidoh]

There are several bad habits that people pick up. 

The major one I see is total lack of error handling.  A VB programmer will use "on error resume" on everything, then move to C and do nothing.  I admit that Java has the same issue (.... throws Exception), but at least the program generally ends and the programmer realizes that he's an idiot. 

I definitely agree that bad habits can be formed.  But again, if the programmer plans on transcending his general knowledge of programming beyond that of Visual Basic (or any starting language, for that matter), they are going to realize that the next language of choice is going to be largely different than the initial language they learned.  If they're not willing to learn the new ways of the language, chances are they're going to fail as a programmer anyway.

In short, if the programmer is any good, he/she will break those habits quickly.

I see that very frequently.  Especially with string handling. 

Hehe, I've done it before.   See: my example --

When you're presented with a problem that requires the parsing of a string, you might think to utilize Visual Basic's Split() function.  If you're using C to solve the same problem, you're obviously not going to be using a pre-coded function to split/iterate through the string.  If a new-comer to the C language is presented with this problem, they might logically conclude that it would be much easier for them to solve the problem using Visual Basic instead of C.  Initially, they'd rather not learn a new solution to the problem.

[iago]

I definitely agree that bad habits can be formed.  But again, if the programmer plans on transcending his general knowledge of programming beyond that of Visual Basic (or any starting language, for that matter), they are going to realize that the next language of choice is going to be largely different than the initial language they learned.  If they're not willing to learn the new ways of the language, chances are they're going to fail as a programmer anyway.

True, but most languages lead more or less smoothly into each other.  Going back and forth to or from Java and C is a snap.  Many other languages are also very similar to them.  But making the jump from VB to C or VB to Java is difficult, to say the least. 

VB is just barely a language, in some sense.  It's just a collection of macros tha happen when you click laid out controls

[Sidoh]

True, but most languages lead more or less smoothly into each other.  Going back and forth to or from Java and C is a snap.  Many other languages are also very similar to them.  But making the jump from VB to C or VB to Java is difficult, to say the least. 

I fully agree.  Maybe it helps separate the sucky programmers from the good programmers!   If someone has been working with nothing but Visual Basic for 6 years, chances are they're a sucky programmer.

VB is just barely a language, in some sense.  It's just a collection of macros tha happen when you click laid out controls

Hahah, yeah.

[iago]

I fully agree.  Maybe it helps separate the sucky programmers from the good programmers!   If someone has been working with nothing but Visual Basic for 6 years, chances are they're a sucky programmer.

What if that person doesn't realize that there's something better out there?

[Sidoh]

What if that person doesn't realize that there's something better out there?

How likely is that?

[Warrior]

I'm going to say it's a bad beginners language. It teaches some bad habbits which will be hard to get rid of in the future.
Sure it's useful for writing some applications quickly but it's limitations and the bad habbits it encourages outweighs it's usefulness.
Those are my thoughts

[Sidoh]

I'm going to say it's a bad beginners language. It teaches some bad habbits which will be hard to get rid of in the future.
Sure it's useful for writing some applications quickly but it's limitations and the bad habbits it encourages outweighs it's usefulness.
Those are my thoughts

Like I said, if the programmer is any good, they'll realize that other programming languages are going to be different.  Good programmers can adapt from one language to the next nearly seamlessly.  If the said person is using Visual Basic and wants to learn another language, all it takes is the willingness to learn, an open mind and some time for practice.

[iago]

I actually forgot to bring this up:

It's a great language. For what it's designed to do. Compared to other languages, it isn't very useful.

That absolutely wasn't the question.  I don't care if it does what it's designed to do, or even that it isn't useful.  This thread is about whether it's a good beginner language

[Warrior]

I'm going to say it's a bad beginners language. It teaches some bad habbits which will be hard to get rid of in the future.
Sure it's useful for writing some applications quickly but it's limitations and the bad habbits it encourages outweighs it's usefulness.
Those are my thoughts

Like I said, if the programmer is any good, they'll realize that other programming languages are going to be different.  Good programmers can adapt from one language to the next nearly seamlessly.  If the said person is using Visual Basic and wants to learn another language, all it takes is the willingness to learn, an open mind and some time for practice.

Agreed, but I do think it's possible to "Save" those who will be hopelessly lost when trying to go beyond VB (and endup giving up) by giving them a good language.

[Sidoh]

Agreed, but I do think it's possible to "Save" those who will be hopelessly lost when trying to go beyond VB (and endup giving up) by giving them a good language.

Perhaps I'm implying that's a good thing?

[Warrior]

Ouch, there's always hope. :/ I've seen people rise from the ashes, hell look at me in '03 @ vL. Using VB6 (when I didn't know it) and CSB (I hardly knew that either)

[Sidoh]

Ouch, there's always hope. :/ I've seen people rise from the ashes, hell look at me in '03 @ vL. Using VB6 (when I didn't know it) and CSB (I hardly knew that either)

Obviously, you had potential.  The people we're talking about don't.

[Warrior]

Possibly, maybe they do too!
Anyhow despite what I think, users should decide on what they feel confortable and what their goals are with programming.

[igimo1]

There are several bad habits that people pick up. 

The major one I see is total lack of error handling.  A VB programmer will use "on error resume" on everything, then move to C and do nothing.  I admit that Java has the same issue (.... throws Exception), but at least the program generally ends and the programmer realizes that he's an idiot. 

False. Merely having a function in that language that lets users jump errors means absolutely nothing; most VB6 coders I know have enough sense to debug their errors instead of ignoring them.  It's just something you shouldn't use, like voids.

[Sidoh]

False. Merely having a function in that language that lets users jump errors means absolutely nothing; most VB6 coders I know have enough sense to debug their errors instead of ignoring them.  It's just something you shouldn't use, like voids.

You don't know very many Visual Basic programmers, if that's the case.  It's much easier to just slap something together in VB than it is in, say, C.

[MyndFyre]

False. Merely having a function in that language that lets users jump errors means absolutely nothing; most VB6 coders I know have enough sense to debug their errors instead of ignoring them.  It's just something you shouldn't use, like voids.

You don't know very many Visual Basic programmers, if that's the case.  It's much easier to just slap something together in VB than it is in, say, C.

That's what VB was made for! 

It's just something you shouldn't use, like voids.

What?!?

[Sidoh]

That's what VB was made for! 

And that's why it's easy to create sloppy code with it.

[iago]

There are several bad habits that people pick up. 

The major one I see is total lack of error handling.  A VB programmer will use "on error resume" on everything, then move to C and do nothing.  I admit that Java has the same issue (.... throws Exception), but at least the program generally ends and the programmer realizes that he's an idiot. 

False. Merely having a function in that language that lets users jump errors means absolutely nothing; most VB6 coders I know have enough sense to debug their errors instead of ignoring them.  It's just something you shouldn't use, like voids.

I see plenty of VB programmers who don't handle errors properly, who just stick "on error resume" if they have one.  Even I used to do that all those years ago.  Half-assed error handling is so very tempting. 

And wtf @ voids?  I'm not sure whether you mean void functions or void* pointers, but they are both useful.  Lately I've gotten into the habit of making most of my void functions BOOL so that they can indicate errors, but void still has its place. 

[AntiVirus]

I agree with the majority on saying that VB is not a good beginner language.  The reason I don't like it is because it's not the kind of programming I like to do.  All I really did was mess with objects and that was very boring for me, I didn't really feel like I was programming; even when I put code into it.

It's just not the language for me, so that's why I am saying what I am saying.  I have also been told (and even seen on here many times) that it gives a new programmer bad habits when programming and even though I don't know all of those bad habits, I can still see where they are coming from.

I always stand by the saying "Do the hard ones first", and since VB is so easy compared to other languages, it would be best for someone to start on a language that is a little more difficult and one that is more like the majority, like C or Java.

[Sidoh]

I agree with the majority on saying that VB is not a good beginner language.  The reason I don't like it is because it's not the kind of programming I like to do.  All I really did was mess with objects and that was very boring for me, I didn't really feel like I was programming; even when I put code into it.

You were weird then.  I definitely felt like I was programming when I was using Visual Basic.  My code probably wasn't optimized for VB code (because I rarely used pre-built things; I usually wrote my own implementations), but I programmed it, by God!

It's just not the language for me, so that's why I am saying what I am saying.  I have also been told (and even seen on here many times) that it gives a new programmer bad habits when programming and even though I don't know all of those bad habits, I can still see where they are coming from.

As I've already said a few times, they are not habits that are impossible to break.  Any sort of good programmer will break these habits when they move on to a more powerful language.  I think it's a great starter programming language because it "eases you into" the programming idea.  You're still programming; I don't think there's any doubt there.  Sure, it's a lot easier to do most things, but you're still programming...

I always stand by the saying "Do the hard ones first", and since VB is so easy compared to other languages, it would be best for someone to start on a language that is a little more difficult and one that is more like the majority, like C or Java.

Some times the "hard" languages can be overwhelming.  Learning new syntaxes is the easy part in transversing to another language.  It's the symantecs what make it difficult.  I admit there are huge differences in VB's and C's symantecs, but again, it's nothing that a willing programmer won't be able to learn.

Personally, I don't think it matters much.  If you're any good at programming, the language you start with doesn't make a difference (I, personally, started with C++).

[AntiVirus]

I agree with the majority on saying that VB is not a good beginner language.  The reason I don't like it is because it's not the kind of programming I like to do.  All I really did was mess with objects and that was very boring for me, I didn't really feel like I was programming; even when I put code into it.

You were weird then.  I definitely felt like I was programming when I was using Visual Basic.  My code probably wasn't optimized for VB code (because I rarely used pre-built things; I usually wrote my own implementations), but I programmed it, by God!

It's just not the language for me, so that's why I am saying what I am saying.  I have also been told (and even seen on here many times) that it gives a new programmer bad habits when programming and even though I don't know all of those bad habits, I can still see where they are coming from.

As I've already said a few times, they are not habits that are impossible to break.  Any sort of good programmer will break these habits when they move on to a more powerful language.  I think it's a great starter programming language because it "eases you into" the programming idea.  You're still programming; I don't think there's any doubt there.  Sure, it's a lot easier to do most things, but you're still programming...

I always stand by the saying "Do the hard ones first", and since VB is so easy compared to other languages, it would be best for someone to start on a language that is a little more difficult and one that is more like the majority, like C or Java.

Some times the "hard" languages can be overwhelming.  Learning new syntaxes is the easy part in transversing to another language.  It's the symantecs what make it difficult.  I admit there are huge differences in VB's and C's symantecs, but again, it's nothing that a willing programmer won't be able to learn.

Personally, I don't think it matters much.  If you're any good at programming, the language you start with doesn't make a difference (I, personally, started with C++).

I am aware that the habits can be broken, that is why the are only habits.

[Sidoh]

I am aware that the habits can be broken, that is why the are only habits.

Then I fail to see the permanent negativity of learning Visual Basic as your first programming language.

[igimo1]

void, the data type.

EDIT: I actually haven't done much with C, but I recall reading an article about good/poor coding habits. Voids particularly stuck in my memory, especially since it essentially has the same problem as a Variant in VB6.

[Warrior]

It isn't like they are used all the time, they are used when the return of a function cannot be expected (void pointers) and void's return nothing so..what's your point?

[ink]

it all depends on the person, may be a good beginner language for one person but just doesn't do it for another
in my own opinion, i opted to go with c++ first. not sure there was any particular reasoning behind it though.

[Sidoh]

it all depends on the person, may be a good beginner language for one person but just doesn't do it for another
in my own opinion, i opted to go with c++ first. not sure there was any particular reasoning behind it though.

Not really.  Visual Basic is going to be easier for any beginning programmer.  That doesn't mean other languages aren't easy to learn by too, I'm simply saying Visual Basic is easier than almost every given language.

[MyndFyre]

it all depends on the person, may be a good beginner language for one person but just doesn't do it for another
in my own opinion, i opted to go with c++ first. not sure there was any particular reasoning behind it though.

Not really.  Visual Basic is going to be easier for any beginning programmer.  That doesn't mean other languages aren't easy to learn by too, I'm simply saying Visual Basic is easier than almost every given language.

I don't think I'd agree with that.  When I started web programming for servers, I had a chance to go into VBScript or JavaScript.  I had a good JavaScript tutorial around, and I think most people just expected you to understand VBScript.  I found JavaScript *far* easier than VBScript even though they both exposed the exact same objects in the server environment.  This was my very first exposure to programming.  I learned everything I've ever needed to know about JavaScript from Thau's 10-lesson tutorial at Webmonkey.

Javascript, of course, facilitates transitions to Java, although it's typeless.

[Sidoh]

I don't think I'd agree with that.  When I started web programming for servers, I had a chance to go into VBScript or JavaScript.  I had a good JavaScript tutorial around, and I think most people just expected you to understand VBScript.  I found JavaScript *far* easier than VBScript even though they both exposed the exact same objects in the server environment.  This was my very first exposure to programming.  I learned everything I've ever needed to know about JavaScript from Thau's 10-lesson tutorial at Webmonkey.

Javascript, of course, facilitates transitions to Java, although it's typeless.

I don't think it's necessarily think it's fair to use this analogy.  While it definitely does help prove a point, I get a much different feel from Javascript/VB Script than I do from Java/Visual Basic.  They are definitely different things to consider.

You're right, though.  VB Script is pretty stupid compared to Javascript.

[Joe]

void, the data type.

EDIT: I actually haven't done much with C, but I recall reading an article about good/poor coding habits. Voids particularly stuck in my memory, especially since it essentially has the same problem as a Variant in VB6.

People who dimension their variables as variants deserve to be shot.

[MyndFyre]

void, the data type.

EDIT: I actually haven't done much with C, but I recall reading an article about good/poor coding habits. Voids particularly stuck in my memory, especially since it essentially has the same problem as a Variant in VB6.

People who dimension their variables as variants deserve to be shot.

You know, the keyword "Dim" doesn't stand for "Dimension," it stands for "Declare In Memory."  It was an acronym once, when BASIC only relied on the all-uppercase DIM statement.

And, COM users find Variant useful because they can use IDispatch objects from other languages through it.  IDispatch allows functions to be called through late binding because it provides interface and member information to the caller.

[iago]

You know, the keyword "Dim" doesn't stand for "Dimension," it stands for "Declare In Memory."  It was an acronym once, when BASIC only relied on the all-uppercase DIM statement.

In books and courses I've read, they've always refered to "dim" as "dimension". 

From The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing:

dim statement

<programming> (From "dimension") A keyword in most versions
of the BASIC programming language that declares the size of
an array. E.g.

DIM A(100)

declares a one-dimensional array with 101 numeric elements
(including A(0)).

Visual Basic uses the DIM (or "Dim") statement for any
variable declaration, even scalars, e.g.

Dim DepartmentNumber As Integer

which declares a single (scalar) variable of type Integer.

(1999-03-26)

Perhaps you're the one that has it wrong?

[MyndFyre]

In books and courses I've read, they've always refered to "dim" as "dimension". 

Perhaps you're the one that has it wrong?

I'll take your word for it (with regard to other books), but when I was working in BASIC about 13-14 years ago -- you know, Apple IIe-era in elementary school -- I read a book from my local library that said it was declare in memory. 

Since we're talking about VB, I thought it might be handy to look at the VB Language Reference:

Used at module, class, structure, procedure, or block level to declare and allocate storage space for variables.

(emphasis added).  Point being, it's used to declare variables.  You're not always dimensioning an array when you Dim a variable.  Besides -- where to variables go?  In memory. 

Oooh!  And, this site which I found while Googling, doesn't list "dimension" as something it stands for, but it *does* list "Declare In Memory" as well as "Declare Into Memory". 

[iago]

In books and courses I've read, they've always refered to "dim" as "dimension". 

Perhaps you're the one that has it wrong?

I'll take your word for it (with regard to other books), but when I was working in BASIC about 13-14 years ago -- you know, Apple IIe-era in elementary school -- I read a book from my local library that said it was declare in memory. 

Since we're talking about VB, I thought it might be handy to look at the VB Language Reference:

Used at module, class, structure, procedure, or block level to declare and allocate storage space for variables.

(emphasis added).  Point being, it's used to declare variables.  You're not always dimensioning an array when you Dim a variable.  Besides -- where to variables go?  In memory. 

Oooh!  And, this site which I found while Googling, doesn't list "dimension" as something it stands for, but it *does* list "Declare In Memory" as well as "Declare Into Memory". 

That's all well and good, but do you have any real sites that say it stands for "Declare in Memory"?  "stands4.com" doesn't strike me as being a better source than the "Online Dictionary of Computing".  Also, Acronym Finder says it's dimension, and it's usually the best source for abbreviations. 

I'm not disputing that it declares a variable in memory.  It definitely does.  But I've never seen it referred to as meaning that. 

And yeah, I have memories of programming BASIC on a Commador 64 (and now I can't even spell it).  Good times, those were...

[MyndFyre]

And yeah, I have memories of programming BASIC on a Commador 64 (and now I can't even spell it).  Good times, those were...

Hehehehe, the Commodore 64.... we had a cartridge in my fourth grade class for it that played a game with a rat collecting cheese and you had to avoid the mouse!

Nothing beat out doing BASIC on the greenscreen of the Apple IIe though.  I can't imagine what they thought 3rd graders would get out of that.

[Joe]

How about we go with it being DIM, which can mean whatever you want it to mean? =)

[iago]

How about we go with it being DIM, which can mean whatever you want it to mean? =)

Because that would be wrong. 

Hehehehe, the Commodore 64.... we had a cartridge in my fourth grade class for it that played a game with a rat collecting cheese and you had to avoid the mouse!

Nothing beat out doing BASIC on the greenscreen of the Apple IIe though.  I can't imagine what they thought 3rd graders would get out of that.

Haha yeah, I remember doing that language with a turtle back on the Apple thing.  Logo or something?  Doing BASIC on a Commodore was just as fun.  No harddrive, no disk drive, and no software.  All it had was a BASIC interpreter.

[MyndFyre]

Haha yeah, I remember doing that language with a turtle back on the Apple thing.  Logo or something?  Doing BASIC on a Commodore was just as fun.  No harddrive, no disk drive, and no software.  All it had was a BASIC interpreter.

Hahahaha, and getting pissed because there wasn't any kind of "Save" feature!

[Joe]

You could save to a tape drive, IIRC? I know there was the option for an external 512KB floppy drive, as well.

[iago]

You could save to a tape drive, IIRC? I know there was the option for an external 512KB floppy drive, as well.

I had neither. 

[MyndFyre]

You could save to a tape drive, IIRC? I know there was the option for an external 512KB floppy drive, as well.

I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as a 512kb floppy drive ever.  Reference: here.

We didn't have either thing though.

[Joe]

Er, I was thinking 5.25" or something like that. I don't know what mean. The one that was literally a "floppy" disk.