Author Topic: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act  (Read 16064 times)

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Offline iago

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Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« on: June 03, 2006, 11:52:02 am »
Somehow, it makes me feel good that at least some people are fighting back against the impending police state:

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Four Connecticut librarians, members of Library Connection, a not-for profit cooperative organization for resource sharing across 26 Connecticut library branches sharing a centralized computer, were served with a National Security Letter (NSL) in August of last year as part of the FBI's attempt to attain access to patron's records.

The NSL is a little known statute in the Patriot Act that permits law enforcement to obtain records of people not suspected of any wrongdoing and without a court order. As part of the NSL, those served with the document are gagged and prohibited from disclosing that they have even been served.

The foursome of Barbara Bailey, Peter Chase, George Christian, and Jan Nocek were automatically gagged from disclosing that they had received the letter, the contents of the letter, and even from discussions surrounding the Patriot Act.

The librarians, via the national and Connecticut branches of the ACLU, filed suit challenging the Patriot Act on first amendment grounds.


More:
http://www.alternet.org/rights/36953/
« Last Edit: June 04, 2006, 12:30:45 pm by Newby »

Offline GameSnake

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Re: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2006, 12:19:47 pm »
I think it's a "patriot act" to secure your first amendment rights, not to give them up.
So, good for them, I hope they win. Why in the hell is the FBI messing with a library anyway?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2006, 12:22:15 pm by GameSnake »

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2006, 01:52:23 pm »
I think it's a "patriot act" to secure your first amendment rights, not to give them up.
So, good for them, I hope they win. Why in the hell is the FBI messing with a library anyway?
That way they can find connections with people that call the mid east, have funny names, and look up explosive kind related things on the internet & in the library

Offline GameSnake

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Re: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2006, 04:19:01 pm »
I think it's a "patriot act" to secure your first amendment rights, not to give them up.
So, good for them, I hope they win. Why in the hell is the FBI messing with a library anyway?
That way they can find connections with people that call the mid east, have funny names, and look up explosive kind related things on the internet & in the library
Thats public information if its at a library, books are protected under the freedom of expression clause of the first amendment.

Your rights, ever heard of them?

Offline Warrior

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Re: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2006, 04:41:03 pm »
When it's an issue with national security, I'd like to think our government would violate a few rights to get what they need. They'll get over it.
One must ask oneself: "do I will trolling to become a universal law?" And then when one realizes "yes, I do will it to be such," one feels completely justified.
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Offline Eric

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Re: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2006, 05:08:03 pm »
When it's an issue with national security, I'd like to think our government would violate a few rights to get what they need. They'll get over it.

I'd like to think that, even in cases involving national security, our government should uphold the original rights and liberties of this country.  Civil liberties are often reduced during times of war in false hopes of a slightly larger degree of protection, but it is during times of war when civil liberties become the most important — it is what we are fighting for after all.  "They hate us for our freedom."

Offline Warrior

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Re: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2006, 07:19:47 pm »
I'd take away one freedom to save millions, that's just me though.
One must ask oneself: "do I will trolling to become a universal law?" And then when one realizes "yes, I do will it to be such," one feels completely justified.
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Offline Eric

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Re: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2006, 07:24:57 pm »
I'd take away one freedom to save millions, that's just me though.

You're assuming that, simply because the government has become more invasive in its search for "terrorists," millions of lives will be saved.  That's pure speculation.  You may very well be giving up your freedoms and having no benefit come as a result.

Offline Warrior

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Re: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2006, 08:12:47 pm »
If it can potentially save lives, then why not? It's possible it is, possible it isn't. It's a threat however I do see your point. It's one of the harder decisions concerning national security that the US has to make.
One must ask oneself: "do I will trolling to become a universal law?" And then when one realizes "yes, I do will it to be such," one feels completely justified.
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Offline iago

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Re: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2006, 11:22:08 pm »
Have you read 1984?  The idea of the book is that in the future, the government slowly erodes our rights until one day we wake up and realize that we don't even have the right to think illegal thoughts.  Of course, the people are quite safe, but they don't have any freedom, so what's the point?

Your government was founded on principles of civil rights and liberties.  One of the rights is to express your ideas and beliefs without fear of persecution.  That right is all but gone.

The point of having fundamental rights and freedoms is to protect citizens from the government.  The government doesn't exist to control what you think, it's there to make sure everything is working.  When the government oversteps its bounds, people should fight back. 

The court system is in place to ensure that both government and individual people have the same opportunities to defend themselves.  If a court rules that your phone should be tapped for the safety of others, then that's fine.  If the court rules that you might be a danger, certain records about you should be released.  That's what the courts exist for.  But when the government makes an arbitrary, sweeping decision that it wants to see everybody's library books, or everybody's phonecalls, then there's a problem.  Ordinary people are being violated without being checked.  That's too much power.  The shotgun approach is bad, the sniper approach is, potentially, good. 

To understand this more fully, picture an evil government.  Say for example that Hitler managed to get elected as the US President (he was a very good speaker and politician, after all).  There should be no way for him to cause the problems that Hitler caused, your laws and rights and freedoms are in place to protect you from that.  If you'll set them aside for a government if you think it's doing the right thing, then it's only a small step to setting them aside for a government that will abuse the powers.  That's my major problem with the PATRIOT act -- it gives the government power to act without any kind of safety checks that used to be in place, like requiring a court order to tap a phone.  Before a phone is tapped, proper evidence should be obtained, that's just logical. 

For more information, see my signature.  I added a link this morning to the Wikipedia article on the original version which is about the Nazis.  It basically says that if you keep giving up freedoms, even if it's for the supposed good of everybody, eventually they might be coming for you.

<edit> It just occurred to me that the famous question by Juvenal applies here, "Quid custodiet ipsos custodes?" That's a good question to keep in mind when discussing your loss of freedoms for your own "protection". 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2006, 11:29:32 pm by iago »

Offline Armin

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Re: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2006, 01:19:57 am »
I'd take away one freedom to save millions, that's just me though.
Except, it's not the freedom of one. It's the freedom of hundreds of millions. I totally agree with Lord here. On a side note: http://www.x86labs.org:81/forum/index.php/topic,5830.msg68838.html#msg68838

Also iago, I'll read your post when I'm not so drunk. It's just so long.
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Offline Blaze

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Re: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2006, 01:29:01 am »
I like freedoms and I'd like to keep them.  That is all.
And like a fool I believed myself, and thought I was somebody else...

Offline Warrior

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Re: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2006, 11:04:05 am »
I'd take away one freedom to save millions, that's just me though.
Except, it's not the freedom of one. It's the freedom of hundreds of millions. I totally agree with Lord here. On a side note: http://www.x86labs.org:81/forum/index.php/topic,5830.msg68838.html#msg68838

Also iago, I'll read your post when I'm not so drunk. It's just so long.

Where do you figure? They are trying to access library records, hell if we can make google show their records then we sure as hell can make some library show them
One must ask oneself: "do I will trolling to become a universal law?" And then when one realizes "yes, I do will it to be such," one feels completely justified.
-- from Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Trolling

Offline Warrior

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Re: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2006, 11:11:44 am »
Have you read 1984?  The idea of the book is that in the future, the government slowly erodes our rights until one day we wake up and realize that we don't even have the right to think illegal thoughts.  Of course, the people are quite safe, but they don't have any freedom, so what's the point?

That will never happen, if I wanted to read a fairytail I'd read the davinci code.

Quote
Your government was founded on principles of civil rights and liberties.  One of the rights is to express your ideas and beliefs without fear of persecution.  That right is all but gone.

You can express your ideas all you want, when it's a matter of national security the government can limit your rights as they see fit.

Quote
The point of having fundamental rights and freedoms is to protect citizens from the government.  The government doesn't exist to control what you think, it's there to make sure everything is working.  When the government oversteps its bounds, people should fight back. 

They're not controlling what you think, they are protecting the safety of citizens. It's in the constitution that we can overthrow a government we don't like but so far I think Americans are happy with how we are doing. (World superpower, freedom, etc..) We're ambitious and if we say we're going to kill terrorists then goddamn it we're going to kill terrorists.

Quote
The court system is in place to ensure that both government and individual people have the same opportunities to defend themselves.  If a court rules that your phone should be tapped for the safety of others, then that's fine.  If the court rules that you might be a danger, certain records about you should be released.  That's what the courts exist for.  But when the government makes an arbitrary, sweeping decision that it wants to see everybody's library books, or everybody's phonecalls, then there's a problem.  Ordinary people are being violated without being checked.  That's too much power.  The shotgun approach is bad, the sniper approach is, potentially, good. 

They don't do so withought having some evidence, it is the government which decides when to limit rights in these times. If they find a hundred people suspicious then lets have a hundred people search. Remember, because we did nothing during the timeframe when the hijackers where living in the united states 9/11 happened. They can get inside america and they did a lot of pretty suspicious shit, if we don't take these measures 9/11 will happen again.

Quote
To understand this more fully, picture an evil government.  Say for example that Hitler managed to get elected as the US President (he was a very good speaker and politician, after all).  There should be no way for him to cause the problems that Hitler caused, your laws and rights and freedoms are in place to protect you from that.  If you'll set them aside for a government if you think it's doing the right thing, then it's only a small step to setting them aside for a government that will abuse the powers.  That's my major problem with the PATRIOT act -- it gives the government power to act without any kind of safety checks that used to be in place, like requiring a court order to tap a phone.  Before a phone is tapped, proper evidence should be obtained, that's just logical

We can impeach the president, it's not like there are many ways to abuse the PATRIOT ACT if he made the "Pray to me or die act" then maybe we'd have a problem.


-----

I have no problem with the Patriot Act, if it means stopping another 9/11 or if it means giving us the edge against terrorists then so be it. I expect the US to go country hopping in the future from country to country which are harboring terrorists. It's time someone grew some backbone in this world.
One must ask oneself: "do I will trolling to become a universal law?" And then when one realizes "yes, I do will it to be such," one feels completely justified.
-- from Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Trolling

Offline iago

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Re: Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2006, 12:18:46 pm »
You completely missed the point of what I said.  I'm not going to continue this with you.