Librarians Defy the PATRIOT Act

[Warrior]

I understood what you said, I just strongly disagree with it. I don't think the government is evil or out to limit freedoms at all. It's pretty easy to see things from one side of the glass. Perhaps someone should start launching terrorist attacks on Canada to see how the allmighty government would respond.

[iago]

The point is, the government CAN BE evil.  By giving them more power than they are allowed to have now (allowing them to take actions that abuse your fundamental rights and freedoms), you open the door for them to grab more power later. 

That sorta reminds me of a Star Trek: DS9 episode where some general faked a founder invasion on Earth just so he could turn Earth into a police state, with his troops on every corner.  Sure, the planet was safer, but it was a police state and nobody had any freedom. 

The reason Canada hasn't been attacked in any serious way is because we generally keep our noses out of other people's business.  While America starts wars, Canada is considered to be peacekeepers.  We have troops in dozens of countries not to attack them, but to keep the peace. 

[Warrior]

The point is, the government CAN BE evil.  By giving them more power than they are allowed to have now (allowing them to take actions that abuse your fundamental rights and freedoms), you open the door for them to grab more power later. 

Alright I agree with you, however I think the system we have in place puts forth many checks on the president. I think he would be stopped before it ever got far.

[Armin]

I'd take away one freedom to save millions, that's just me though.

Except, it's not the freedom of one. It's the freedom of hundreds of millions. I totally agree with Lord here. On a side note: http://www.x86labs.org:81/forum/index.php/topic,5830.msg68838.html#msg68838

Also iago, I'll read your post when I'm not so drunk. It's just so long.

Where do you figure? They are trying to access library records, hell if we can make google show their records then we sure as hell can make some library show them

Except, it's not just the library they are using the patriat act on, it's millions of people, and I'm 100% sure that a very, very large majority of them are innocent.

[Warrior]

Where does it say it's being used on millions? I doubt it, even so they wouldn't do it withought having some suspicion.

[CrAz3D]

Its just for monitoring people, a giant Big-Brother surveilance thing.

They watch names & compare stuff...

I just havent decided whether or not this monitoring is line crossing.  The purpose of the government is to uphold our freedoms & protect us from enemies...which takes priority?

[Eric]

The purpose of the government is to uphold our freedoms & protect us from enemies...which takes priority?

Those two duties can be combined into one: to protect our freedoms.  This is, or rather was, the essential goal of our government.

[CrAz3D]

The purpose of the government is to uphold our freedoms & protect us from enemies...which takes priority?

Those two duties can be combined into one: to protect our freedoms.  This is, or rather was, the essential goal of our government.

But you have to make compromises to do that...but where should the line be drawn?

[iago]

The point is, the government CAN BE evil.  By giving them more power than they are allowed to have now (allowing them to take actions that abuse your fundamental rights and freedoms), you open the door for them to grab more power later. 

Alright I agree with you, however I think the system we have in place puts forth many checks on the president. I think he would be stopped before it ever got far.

I worry that a clever and evil government will be able to get enough power without being stopped that he won't be able to be stopped. 

Look at 9/11 for example -- if a malicious government is able to arrange an attack like that, everybody panics and they can pass pretty much any law that sounds like it'll protect the people. 

The purpose of the government is to uphold our freedoms & protect us from enemies...which takes priority?

Those two duties can be combined into one: to protect our freedoms.  This is, or rather was, the essential goal of our government.

But you have to make compromises to do that...but where should the line be drawn?

The line should be drawn when the government has the ability to step on people's freedoms in an unchecked manner. 

[CrAz3D]

But what is a freedom that is being stomped on unchecked?

I think most of Congress/America agrees with most things that Congress/the administration has done re:security

[Armin]

Where does it say it's being used on millions? I doubt it, even so they wouldn't do it withought having some suspicion.

The entire United States, excluding Quest users, had their liberty breached when the government started tapping into our phone lines. Sure, they're only monitoring logs, but one thing leads into another. It can and will continue building up unless the American people wake up and do something about it. Just like Franklin said.

The point is, the government CAN BE evil.  By giving them more power than they are allowed to have now (allowing them to take actions that abuse your fundamental rights and freedoms), you open the door for them to grab more power later. 

Alright I agree with you, however I think the system we have in place puts forth many checks on the president. I think he would be stopped before it ever got far.

I worry that a clever and evil government will be able to get enough power without being stopped that he won't be able to be stopped.

That's part of the problem, yet it's not the source. The United States is a government run by the people. If these people don't wake up, get their heads out of their asses, and get educated, then they'll continue electing these facsist bastards that are running our country. Yet, there needs to be a huge change in the education process for people to get educated enough for this to happen.

[Warrior]

I worry that a clever and evil government will be able to get enough power without being stopped that he won't be able to be stopped. 

Look at 9/11 for example -- if a malicious government is able to arrange an attack like that, everybody panics and they can pass pretty much any law that sounds like it'll protect the people. 

It's a possibility, I don't think our current people elected into government would do it. However it's still good to make a lot of this information public. Like that 9/11 comitee that released that howevermany thousand page book on what happened. I think we did a fairly good job of describing the events of 9/11.

The line should be drawn when the government has the ability to step on people's freedoms in an unchecked manner. 

I'll agree here too and I think these situations keep them in check, people will complain if it's done for absolutely no reason. We have the supreme court which can declare something unconstitutional by judicial review. If the problem gets that big they can take it there.

[Warrior]

Where does it say it's being used on millions? I doubt it, even so they wouldn't do it withought having some suspicion.

The entire United States, excluding Quest users, had their liberty breached when the government started tapping into our phone lines. Sure, they're only monitoring logs, but one thing leads into another. It can and will continue building up unless the American people wake up and do something about it. Just like Franklin said.

Only time you should worry about your phone being tapped imho is if you've got something to hide. I really think this is more of people complaining than it being an actual problem. US has monitored things like radio transmissions before for wars, what if I was on one of those frequencies? Could I complain? Or would you rather the US gain valuable information?

[iago]

An important government official that Canada has and the US doesn't is the Office of the Privacy Commissioner. 

She is a part of the government, but not linked to any party and not under the jurisdiction of any party.  It is her responsibility to ensure that any decisions affecting the privacy of ordinary people are examined carefully.  Don't forget, we don't have the same basic Rights and Freedoms as Americans spelled out, but she kind of protects some of the rights. 

She also looks after laws such as where closed-circuit cameras are allowed to be, how many and how often people can be monitored, and a lot more.  I think that having a privacy commisioner was a great decision, for whoever made it.

[CrAz3D]

An important government official that Canada has and the US doesn't is the Office of the Privacy Commissioner. 

She is a part of the government, but not linked to any party and not under the jurisdiction of any party.  It is her responsibility to ensure that any decisions affecting the privacy of ordinary people are examined carefully.  Don't forget, we don't have the same basic Rights and Freedoms as Americans spelled out, but she kind of protects some of the rights. 

She also looks after laws such as where closed-circuit cameras are allowed to be, how many and how often people can be monitored, and a lot more.  I think that having a privacy commisioner was a great decision, for whoever made it.

We have that too, its our judicial system.  They aren't just one office, but in general the courts arae there to check the Constitutionality of laws.