Author Topic: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table  (Read 16151 times)

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Offline AntiVirus

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Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« on: June 22, 2006, 03:25:31 am »
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,71201-0.html?tw=wn_index_1
Quote
What if the next burger you ate was created in a warm, nutrient-enriched soup swirling within a bioreactor?
Ewww..
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Offline iago

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2006, 08:01:29 am »
They put such a negative spin on that, which isn't fair. 

I hate the idea of eating animals.  So many animals suffer so much for our benefit, an absolutely unreal amount.  At the moment, I won't eat veal, and I feel some level of guilt about eating other animals, but I can't just not eat meat. 

If they could mass-produce meat that looks and tastes exactly the same without the need to torture and kill animals, I'm all for it. 

Offline rabbit

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2006, 09:01:59 am »
Then all the livestock meant for the dinner table would be liquidated, and would be a complete waste.

Offline deadly7

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2006, 11:11:34 am »
Anybody that wants to try a substitute meat ever:
Don't.
Stick with your real meat.  Soy and all that other crap tastes terrible.
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Offline rabbit

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2006, 11:19:39 am »
It's not soy or tofu substitute, it is meat, it's just grown not born.

Offline Chavo

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2006, 01:49:44 pm »
They put such a negative spin on that, which isn't fair. 

I hate the idea of eating animals.  So many animals suffer so much for our benefit, an absolutely unreal amount.  At the moment, I won't eat veal, and I feel some level of guilt about eating other animals, but I can't just not eat meat. 

If they could mass-produce meat that looks and tastes exactly the same without the need to torture and kill animals, I'm all for it. 

I disagree.  Animals are not 'intelligent.'
Quote from: wiki
Intelligence is a general mental capability that involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas and language, and learn. In psychology, the study of intelligence is related to the study of personality but is not the same as creativity, personality, character, or wisdom.

The act of eating an animal does not cause them pain/suffering.  Suggesting that killing an animal for food is wrong seems to violate the laws of nature IMO.  I agree that just because homosapiens as a whole could be considered 'above' animals does not make it ok to inflict unnecessary pain /suffering on an animal.  However, killing an animal for food and an animal suffering unnecessarily are not mutually inclusive so feeling guilt for eating an animal just because they may or may not have undergone unnecessary pain/suffering is illogical.

More on topic: 
I don't know how I feel about growing meat.  My first impression is that it doesn't sound very appetizing, but I can't think of any real reasons not to support it.  Especially if it decreases polution / decreases costs / helps solve world hunger / etc.  I'd like to see more independent opinions on the subject though as I may very well be missing an important downside.

Offline AntiVirus

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2006, 01:52:21 pm »
I'll stick with the real thing.
The once grove of splendor,
Aforetime crowned by lilac and lily,
Lay now forevermore slender;
And all winds that liven
Silhouette a lone existence;
A leafless oak grasping at eternity.


"They say that I must learn to kill before I can feel safe, but I rather kill myself then turn into their slave."
- The Rasmus

Offline iago

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2006, 01:57:20 pm »
They put such a negative spin on that, which isn't fair. 

I hate the idea of eating animals.  So many animals suffer so much for our benefit, an absolutely unreal amount.  At the moment, I won't eat veal, and I feel some level of guilt about eating other animals, but I can't just not eat meat. 

If they could mass-produce meat that looks and tastes exactly the same without the need to torture and kill animals, I'm all for it. 

I disagree.  Animals are not 'intelligent.'
Animals seem pretty intelligent to me.  "Monkeys cry".  Even if they aren't intelligent, they can feel pain and I'm reasonably sure they can have emotions (if you've ever owned a dog, you know that they can be grumpy, playful, etc)


Quote from: wiki
Intelligence is a general mental capability that involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas and language, and learn. In psychology, the study of intelligence is related to the study of personality but is not the same as creativity, personality, character, or wisdom.

The act of eating an animal does not cause them pain/suffering.  Suggesting that killing an animal for food is wrong seems to violate the laws of nature IMO.  I agree that just because homosapiens as a whole could be considered 'above' animals does not make it ok to inflict unnecessary pain /suffering on an animal.  However, killing an animal for food and an animal suffering unnecessarily are not mutually inclusive so feeling guilt for eating an animal just because they may or may not have undergone unnecessary pain/suffering is illogical.
Although it's true that it's natural, if I can avoid making animals sad at the cost of eating fake meat, then I'm all for it.  More below. 


More on topic: 
I don't know how I feel about growing meat.  My first impression is that it doesn't sound very appetizing, but I can't think of any real reasons not to support it.  Especially if it decreases polution / decreases costs / helps solve world hunger / etc.  I'd like to see more independent opinions on the subject though as I may very well be missing an important downside.
Even if animals aren't tortured, they are bred and live to serve as food, and that's not a very fulfilling life.  Then they die for us.  Great amounts of land for cattle to graze, especially in poor countries, which involves cutting down forests, causing erosion, polluting water, etc. 

But yeah, an independant study is required, for sure.  The article cited here is taken from a negative perspective, but I'd like to see something positive or neutral. 

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2006, 02:01:02 pm »
They put such a negative spin on that, which isn't fair. 

I hate the idea of eating animals.  So many animals suffer so much for our benefit, an absolutely unreal amount.  At the moment, I won't eat veal, and I feel some level of guilt about eating other animals, but I can't just not eat meat. 

If they could mass-produce meat that looks and tastes exactly the same without the need to torture and kill animals, I'm all for it. 

I disagree.  Animals are not 'intelligent.'
Quote from: wiki
Intelligence is a general mental capability that involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas and language, and learn. In psychology, the study of intelligence is related to the study of personality but is not the same as creativity, personality, character, or wisdom.

The act of eating an animal does not cause them pain/suffering.  Suggesting that killing an animal for food is wrong seems to violate the laws of nature IMO.  I agree that just because homosapiens as a whole could be considered 'above' animals does not make it ok to inflict unnecessary pain /suffering on an animal.  However, killing an animal for food and an animal suffering unnecessarily are not mutually inclusive so feeling guilt for eating an animal just because they may or may not have undergone unnecessary pain/suffering is illogical.
agreed.
i think being eaten alive by a lion MIGHT be a bit more painful than being nailed in the head with a bolt & dying pretty quick.

More on topic: 
I don't know how I feel about growing meat.  My first impression is that it doesn't sound very appetizing, but I can't think of any real reasons not to support it.  Especially if it decreases polution / decreases costs / helps solve world hunger / etc.  I'd like to see more independent opinions on the subject though as I may very well be missing an important downside.
if it looks/tastes/feels ok, it'd be weird for a while but whatever....maybe it'd be more efficient & we could feed more people & itd be more sanitary & easier to control

Offline Chavo

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2006, 02:57:14 pm »
Animals seem pretty intelligent to me.  "Monkeys cry".  Even if they aren't intelligent, they can feel pain and I'm reasonably sure they can have emotions (if you've ever owned a dog, you know that they can be grumpy, playful, etc)
Yes, animals have 'feelings' to an extent and they can feel pain.  I used the word intelligent and provided my definition.  I'm still having trouble thinking of a word that appropriately defines what I'm getting at since your example suggests you don't agree on my definition of intelligence.  I think this is a rather untuitive thing though.  There is an obvious difference between humans and animals (monkeys/dolphins/etc included) which is what I'm referring to.

Even if animals aren't tortured, they are bred and live to serve as food, and that's not a very fulfilling life.  Then they die for us.
As opposed to?  I don't think any animals have 'fulfilling' lives.  Even pets and lab animals are just fulfilling our desires, not theirs.  They are part of the food chain regardless of whether they are bred by humans or not.

Great amounts of land for cattle to graze, especially in poor countries, which involves cutting down forests, causing erosion, polluting water, etc. 
I agree.  This article does not mention whether 'grown' meat would reduce pollution or other negative effects.  It seems pretty obvious that it could reduce the strain on forests but could potentially increase pollution into the air/water.  Again, another view/study is needed.  Maybe I'll go look for one tomorrow.

Offline Warrior

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2006, 03:55:26 pm »


Note: I laugh at vegetarians and anyone else too sissy to eat meat.
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Offline Sidoh

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2006, 03:57:49 pm »
I don't eat meat that often simply because I usually don't like the taste.

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2006, 04:00:58 pm »
I don't eat meat that often simply because I usually don't like the taste.

Sissy..

jk

Well that's probably okay if you just don't like how it tastes but if you don't like it because "It hurts our fellow animals". The hell out of here with that, i'd eat an animal alive if I was hungry enough.

I'd like to starve a vegetarian with a hamburger infront of him..see how long it is before I can break his spirit. That's always been a dream of mine.
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Offline rabbit

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2006, 04:06:11 pm »
I'd like to starve a vegetarian with a hamburger infront of him..see how long it is before I can break his spirit. That's always been a dream of mine.
He'd eat the bun, and the lettuce, and the tomato...

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2006, 04:11:05 pm »
Well that's probably okay if you just don't like how it tastes but if you don't like it because "It hurts our fellow animals". The hell out of here with that, i'd eat an animal alive if I was hungry enough.

I'd like to starve a vegetarian with a hamburger infront of him..see how long it is before I can break his spirit. That's always been a dream of mine.

Haha.  I still eat meat almost every day, but I don't get hyped about about steak dinners like a lot of people do.

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2006, 04:12:31 pm »
If evolution didn't want us to eat animals, then it would have equipped them with better natural defenses.
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Offline Warrior

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2006, 04:15:20 pm »
I'd like to starve a vegetarian with a hamburger infront of him..see how long it is before I can break his spirit. That's always been a dream of mine.
He'd eat the bun, and the lettuce, and the tomato...

It's not like he wins after he eats. Point is to stay alive.

Even if he eats the hamburger he still dies. He just doesn't know it.
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Offline deadly7

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2006, 04:18:48 pm »
Even if you eat all the meat in the world, you'll still die too Warrior.  Your point?
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Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2006, 04:45:19 pm »
Well that's probably okay if you just don't like how it tastes but if you don't like it because "It hurts our fellow animals". The hell out of here with that, i'd eat an animal alive if I was hungry enough.

I'd like to starve a vegetarian with a hamburger infront of him..see how long it is before I can break his spirit. That's always been a dream of mine.

Haha.  I still eat meat almost every day, but I don't get hyped about about steak dinners like a lot of people do.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, steak.
medium rare, somewhat pink in the middle.  glass of coke/beer.  baked potatoe with salt & butter.

....i'm salivating like a beast now!

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2006, 05:04:14 pm »
Also a note to the admin/mod who deleted this: Fuck you and your rules. Problem solved.
........ :o

Whats with people & being so confrontational on forums these days?  F150Online has had a recent EXPLOSION of INTENSE conflict (usually steming off something political).


Offline iago

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2006, 06:51:55 pm »
Even if you eat all the meat in the world, you'll still die too Warrior.  Your point?

Lol you're a fucking retard. First off:

You die of natural causes not of starvation. Second I'm using it in the context of me starving a person refusing to eat meat. Third you're an idiot. Fourth you're an idiot. Fifth you're an idiot.

Also a note to the admin/mod who deleted this: Fuck you and your rules. Problem solved.

Ok, do you really have to be a total asshole?  It's not befitting of a normal discussion, and it's just plain rude.  If you have a problem with somebody, take it off the forum. 

Also a note to the admin/mod who deleted this: Fuck you and your rules. Problem solved.
........ :o

Whats with people & being so confrontational on forums these days?  F150Online has had a recent EXPLOSION of INTENSE conflict (usually steming off something political).
Just a couple people who've always, technically, been a pain in the ass. 


Incidentally, I split and trashed Warrior's post.  I should have trashed replies too, but I forgot.  Warrior -- if you don't like it, then don't vote for me next month.  But I'm not putting up with that kind of attitude from anybody.  I don't care who it is. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 06:55:53 pm by iago »

Offline Rule

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2006, 09:17:25 pm »
If evolution didn't want us to eat animals, then it would have equipped them with better natural defenses.

Well, this is somewhat glib, because evolution isn't particularly conscious.  We are designed as omnivores though, so it is "natural" for us to eat meat.  I think there is a lot of sense in preferentially choosing which types of meat you would like to eat: a lot of people believe one has to have an "all or none" mentality in regards to vegetarianism.  Actually, a lot of people seem to intrinsically believe that if one doesn't have an "all or none" mentality towards many issues (death penalty, abortion, homosexuality, deterrent laws, ...) he/she is being inconsistent; it's quite a frustrating logical fallacy to get past.

Re: Untactical

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.   It may sound as though I'm belittling your opinion -- that's because I am.  You think humans are so obviously better, more intelligent, sentient, aware, because you are human!!!  *Pats on head*

I've met dogs who are a lot more intelligent than many humans I know, by your definition of intelligence.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 09:24:02 pm by Rule »

Offline dark_drake

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2006, 09:55:08 pm »
If evolution didn't want us to eat animals, then it would have equipped them with better natural defenses.
I don't think it's fair to bring evolution and natural selection into this. We domesticated the animals, breeding most of the genes we didn't want out of them.  They have been bred to suit our needs.  Nature didn't have control, we did.
errr... something like that...

Offline AntiVirus

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2006, 10:54:05 pm »
If evolution didn't want us to eat animals, then it would have equipped them with better natural defenses.
Re: Untactical

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.   It may sound as though I'm belittling your opinion -- that's because I am.  You think humans are so obviously better, more intelligent, sentient, aware, because you are human!!!  *Pats on head*

I've met dogs who are a lot more intelligent than many humans I know, by your definition of intelligence.
That's probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard. :(

Humans are better than animals.  I don't see animals reasoning, inventing, or using complex methods to communicate.  And when you say you met dogs that are more intelligent than humans, you don't mean mentally ill humans, do you? And it probably sounds like I am belittling your opinion -- that's because I am.
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Aforetime crowned by lilac and lily,
Lay now forevermore slender;
And all winds that liven
Silhouette a lone existence;
A leafless oak grasping at eternity.


"They say that I must learn to kill before I can feel safe, but I rather kill myself then turn into their slave."
- The Rasmus

Offline iago

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2006, 11:16:45 pm »
That's probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard. :(

Humans are better than animals.  I don't see animals reasoning, inventing, or using complex methods to communicate.  And when you say you met dogs that are more intelligent than humans, you don't mean mentally ill humans, do you? And it probably sounds like I am belittling your opinion -- that's because I am.

I'm willing to believe that animals can reason and use complex methods to communicate.  I agree that animals aren't as intelligent than us, but I don't see Sidoh eating Joe (sorry Joe, but you're the best patsy).  Being more intelligent than something isn't sufficient for being able to eat them, but it is necessary, I think. 

And incidentally, that brings me back to the old question: why is it ok to eat pigs and cows and chickens and hotdogs, but it's not ok to eat dogs, cats, and stupid people?  I don't think pigs are any dumber than dogs, and whatever is in hotdogs may have the intelligence to rule the world ("think smaller, and more legs").  Who decides what is proper and improper to eat? 

This is an interesting debate for me, because I feel drawn to the "eating animals is not ok" side, but I'm not willing to give it up. 

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2006, 12:11:54 am »
Sidoh eating Joe would be canibalism...we dont eat our own kind because (in theory) we have the same rights to life etc.  Sidoh eating a flying squirrel is just Sidoh eating a flying squirrel because he wanted to..it isnt immoral for him to do so

Offline Hitmen

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2006, 12:28:49 am »
why is it ok to eat pigs and cows and chickens and hotdogs, but it's not ok to eat dogs, cats, and stupid people?
I'd like to answer that question with a song that I wrote (not really):

I like pizza, I like bagels,
I like hot dogs with mustard and beer
I'll eat eggplant,
I could even eat a baby deer
La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la!
Quote
(22:15:39) Newby: it hurts to swallow

Offline Rule

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2006, 12:47:02 am »
That's probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard. :(

It's interesting that you should say that when it comes from someone far more intelligent and learned than yourself.

Humans are better than animals.  I don't see animals reasoning, inventing, or using complex methods to communicate.  And when you say you met dogs that are more intelligent than humans, you don't mean mentally ill humans, do you? And it probably sounds like I am belittling your opinion -- that's because I am.

Look at human tribes scattered throughout the world.  Even presently, with massive globalization, there are colonies of humans to be found in the north that barely know the meaning of fire.  We are certainly designed in such a way that makes it easier for us as a species to develop tools, sophisticated language, and so on.  But as you may be able to figure out from my comment on human tribes, we have also been lucky.

I have worked in the SPCA for 6 years, particularly with wolf dog breeds, and have also studied killer whales rather carefully.  Most pure wolf dogs are far more aware of their surroundings and capable of responding to them than humans are.  They are also faster at learning many skills than the average or even "gifted" human: hunting, recognition (voice, appearance, etc), prudent "crisis" or (urgent) decision making (for example, in those "fight or flight" situations).  Incidentally, in reputable academic journals (e.g. american journal of psychology), the average dog's overall learning capacity (not even singling out wolf dogs or german shepards) has been shown to be roughly equivalent to an average human 10 year old's.  However, they are intrinsically more gifted than most humans at certain tasks used to measure intelligence (as I've said above).

Further, whales have incredibly sophisticated mechanisms for communication and hunting.  They have built in sonar, and can interpret the position of an obstacle more than 500 feet away through perspicaciously sending out
clicks at frequencies of their own discretion.


Statements like "humans are better than animals," are extremely ignorant and arrogant.  In what way are  we better?  We're better because we're human? 

I can usually tell rather quickly when someone is speaking out of arrogance and not consideration.  It's something most of us humans tend to do -- I guess one of many problems with the human condition.

By the way, judging from the tone of your reply, I'm guessing you're religious.  Aside from this thread, I have no data to back that up.  You just seem conditioned in one way or another to talk the way you do when you obviously know very little about what you're saying.  Am I right?  I am not condemning you for being religious if you are, I'm just quite curious if my guess is correct.


(Aside): I don't think a predator is "necessarily" more intelligent than his prey.  Consider great white sharks and dolphins, for example.

Since we are human, and naturally would love to think of ourselves as "special," we tend to lose sight of how closely we are connected to other mammals (thinking about SSU RNA or DNA, or simply by looking at a phylogenetic tree).  Our blueprint, or "prototype" is very close to the design of some other particular animals, so the notion that we are so much different as a species is delusional from a scientific (rational) standpoint.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 01:11:49 am by Rule »

Offline rabbit

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2006, 08:30:02 am »
And incidentally, that brings me back to the old question: why is it ok to eat pigs and cows and chickens and hotdogs, but it's not ok to eat dogs, cats, and stupid people?  I don't think pigs are any dumber than dogs, and whatever is in hotdogs may have the intelligence to rule the world ("think smaller, and more legs").  Who decides what is proper and improper to eat?   
That was all decided back in the old days.  Dogs aided in the hunt, so they weren't eaten.  Cats killed rodents, so they weren't eaten, and stupid people were drawn and quartered, and probably had the plague, so they weren't eaten.  Pigs did jack shit besides make good meat.  Chickens made eggs, so they weren't always eaten.  Same with cows (except replace "eggs" with "milk").  And what kind of hotdog, beef or pork?

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2006, 02:04:29 pm »
Why should we act in a way outside of what evolution has prepared us for, though, Rule?  If we are better-equipped to develop tools, then why shouldn't we use every advantage we naturally have to survive and thrive?
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Offline Rule

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2006, 04:45:57 pm »
Why should we act in a way outside of what evolution has prepared us for, though, Rule?  If we are better-equipped to develop tools, then why shouldn't we use every advantage we naturally have to survive and thrive?

I think most of us do act in a way to insure our survival.  Even socially, when "survival value" is not a consideration, we usually turn our heads the other way in disinterest.   

Just because we are equipped to do something doesn't mean we should necessarily do it though.  You or I may be well equipped to be hardened thiefs or criminals, and it may well be to our advantage (from a survival standpoint), but we likely won't be thiefs because we feel that it is not "the right" thing to do -- an argument could be made that we would not do this because we would be acting hypocritically: it isn't necessary for survival, we wouldn't like to be stolen from, so we should not steal.

Eating meat was once a choice we made as humans in order to survive.  Presently this isn't the case by a long stretch.  We eat meat because we like the taste.  In my opinion, certain animals that we eat are so intelligent, conscious, and aware of their surroundings that their lives aren't worth trading for one more item (of many) on our menu of "things that might taste good." 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 04:50:44 pm by Rule »

Offline Eric

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2006, 05:19:06 pm »
Wouldn't mass adoption of this engineered meat cause an increase in overall animal population and bring the potential for dramatic change of our ecosystem?

Offline Rule

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2006, 05:40:27 pm »
Wouldn't mass adoption of this engineered meat cause an increase in overall animal population and bring the potential for dramatic change of our ecosystem?

I don't think so, because most of the meat people eat comes from domesticated animals on farms (who are generally disconnected from the ecosystem).

Offline AntiVirus

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2006, 06:55:14 pm »
That's probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard. :(
It's interesting that you should say that when it comes from someone far more intelligent and learned than yourself.
Harsh. :)

Quote
By the way, judging from the tone of your reply, I'm guessing you're religious.  Aside from this thread, I have no data to back that up.  You just seem conditioned in one way or another to talk the way you do when you obviously know very little about what you're saying.  Am I right?  I am not condemning you for being religious if you are, I'm just quite curious if my guess is correct.
I am not overly-religious.  Infact, I don't even go to church.

Quote
They are also faster at learning many skills than the average or even "gifted" human: hunting, recognition (voice, appearance, etc), prudent "crisis" or (urgent) decision making (for example, in those "fight or flight" situations).  Incidentally, in reputable academic journals (e.g. american journal of psychology), the average dog's overall learning capacity (not even singling out wolf dogs or german shepards) has been shown to be roughly equivalent to an average human 10 year old's.  However, they are intrinsically more gifted than most humans at certain tasks used to measure intelligence (as I've said above).
They might be good at learning skills that they have evolved for over many many years, but that should be a given.  Without these certain skills animals would have died off long ago.  That is evolution that is natural selection working.  Back when Humans were wild and not civilized and were similar to animals they too probably had these same capabilities.  If they didn't have the skills needed to survive, then we wouldn't be where we are today.   

And I would bet that for every one skill and animal has, there are at least ten more skills a human has. Do you think that animals and humans are equal to each other?  Is that what you are going at?  Or are you saying that animals are better than humans?  How could something we protect and keep alive be our equal?  We, as humans, have FAR more potential to grow and learn.  You said it yourself,
Quote
the average dog's overall learning capacity (not even singling out wolf dogs or german shepards) has been shown to be roughly equivalent to an average human 10 year old's
when you compare something to another thing, you always compare something worse to something better.  Just like in this example you gave here.  I believe that saying that animals are our equal or above us is arrogant and ignorant, not the other way around.

Sure, there are some aspects that animals have that are better than humans, but if you look at the whole picture humans have accomplished more and are a far more sophisticated and evolved race. 

Quote
Statements like "humans are better than animals," are extremely ignorant and arrogant.  In what way are  we better?  We're better because we're human? 
What makes us not better? 

I believe that arguing opinions doesn't get you anywhere, so I am willing to agree to disagree and just leave it at that.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 10:16:19 pm by AntiVirus »
The once grove of splendor,
Aforetime crowned by lilac and lily,
Lay now forevermore slender;
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Silhouette a lone existence;
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Offline Rule

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2006, 10:09:35 pm »
I don't really care to continue this discussion, because you obviously are quite decided and closed minded on the whole issue. 

You ask if other animals are equal to or better than humans?  Those are two very subjectively defined words.  Certain specific animals are better at certain specific things than us, (this is something that can be empirically tested), and we are better at other things.  As I've pointed out, scientifically speaking humans aren't some great exception -- we're just some mutations away from other life on this planet.

I don't know if you figured this out or not, but
1) I am human, so a suggestion that other animals could be superior is the opposite of arrogance.
2) Find the error in your sentence: "back when humans were domesticated..."

Look, half of things you've written don't make any sense.  You're what, 18?  Also, you have shown considerable ignorance on the information available in regards to animal intelligence and learning.  I suggest learning a little humility before forming such big headed and uneducated opinions.  I have gone out of my way to spend time with
animals and learn about them.  You obviously haven't.

Also, from what I've seen, humans generally base a majority of their decisions on what will gratify them the most with the least work.  We are selfish, destructive, greedy, compulsive, and arrogant creatures, and I would not be upset if I were something else, like a killer whale or a wolf.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2006, 10:21:57 pm by Rule »

Offline AntiVirus

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2006, 10:26:11 pm »
I don't really care to continue this discussion, because you obviously are quite decided and closed minded on the whole issue. 
Lol!  I am not the only one. :)

2) Find the error in your sentence: "back when humans were domesticated..."
Lmfao!! Whooops!  Didn't pay attention to what I wrote.  Either way, it's fixed.

Certain specific animals are better at certain specific things than us, (this is something that can be empirically tested), and we are better at other things...
Sure, there are some aspects that animals have that are better than humans, but if you look at the whole picture humans have accomplished more and are a far more sophisticated and evolved race. 
Also, from what I've seen, humans generally base a majority of their decisions on what will gratify them the most with the least work.  We are selfish, destructive, greedy, compulsive, and arrogant creatures...
We can atleast agree on one thing. :)
The once grove of splendor,
Aforetime crowned by lilac and lily,
Lay now forevermore slender;
And all winds that liven
Silhouette a lone existence;
A leafless oak grasping at eternity.


"They say that I must learn to kill before I can feel safe, but I rather kill myself then turn into their slave."
- The Rasmus

Offline Chavo

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2006, 03:50:14 pm »
Its unfortunate that I left town shortly after my last reply, I would have loved to refute you myself Rule.  You seem to have no issue with presuming you are better than anyone who has a different opinion than you yet are insulted by the idea that humans might be better than animals.

Ha.

Maybe I'm being a bit blunt or rude, but what would you expect when your oppening argument is "You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.   It may sound as though I'm belittling your opinion -- that's because I am."

Offline Rule

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2006, 04:28:59 pm »
Its unfortunate that I left town shortly after my last reply, I would have loved to refute you myself Rule. 
Refute what?  Work done in peer-reviewed academic journals?  Good luck with that.  Incidentally, I noticed that you were viewing this thread before today and after I had posted my reply.

You seem to have no issue with presuming you are better than anyone who has a different opinion than you yet are insulted by the idea that humans might be better than animals.
I'm not insulted by the idea.  As I've pointed out, "better" is subjective.  I do, however, get frustrated when people make arguments that are glaringly emotional and poorly thought out.  The notion that humans are somehow the superior exception in this world is a widespread fallacy that creates dangerous social biases and provides justification for behavior that would otherwise be seen as atrocious.  The notion of human superiority (in all facets) makes us feel comfortable, and yes, it is arrogant, because it is counter to the facts and is poorly researched.

Maybe I'm being a bit blunt or rude, but what would you expect when your oppening argument is "You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.   It may sound as though I'm belittling your opinion -- that's because I am."

And I stand by what I said.  You haven't exemplified anything you've said or shown that you have any level of expertise towards the arrogant, matter-of-fact claims you're making.  It may sound as though I'm belittling your opinion -- that's because I am.

Thought exercise:  How would you feel if I told you I were eating a 10 year old human child right now? 

Offline Chavo

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2006, 06:13:55 pm »
Its unfortunate that I left town shortly after my last reply, I would have loved to refute you myself Rule. 
Refute what?  Work done in peer-reviewed academic journals?  Good luck with that.  Incidentally, I noticed that you were viewing this thread before today and after I had posted my reply.
refute.  ffs choose your battles.  Refute is not improperly used. Having time to view short replies != Having time to read long replies and reply to them in a thought out and educated manner.  Do you take pleasure in being a dick for no reason or do you just think you are better than everyone else?

You seem to have no issue with presuming you are better than anyone who has a different opinion than you yet are insulted by the idea that humans might be better than animals.
I'm not insulted by the idea.  As I've pointed out, "better" is subjective.  I do, however, get frustrated when people make arguments that are glaringly emotional and poorly thought out.  The notion that humans are somehow the superior exception in this world is a widespread fallacy that creates dangerous social biases and provides justification for behavior that would otherwise be seen as atrocious.  The notion of human superiority (in all facets) makes us feel comfortable, and yes, it is arrogant, because it is counter to the facts and is poorly researched.
Maybe you wouldn't be so frustrated if you bothered to get clarifications regarding someones intent instead of being presumptious.  Your opinion being the opposite of mine does not make my opinion 'glaringly emotional and poorly thought out.' If you would like to have a debate concerning the topic of a differing opinion, I would hope that you would be able to do so in an open minded and intelligent manner.  For someone that insists they are so educated, you certainly seem to lack a bit of common sense when it comes to debating differences of opinion without being insulting.  Yes I realize that statement is hypocritical but I would not be responding this way if had not found it necessary to make it a personal issue.

Maybe I'm being a bit blunt or rude, but what would you expect when your oppening argument is "You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.   It may sound as though I'm belittling your opinion -- that's because I am."
And I stand by what I said.  You haven't exemplified anything you've said or shown that you have any level of expertise towards the arrogant, matter-of-fact claims you're making.  It may sound as though I'm belittling your opinion -- that's because I am.

Thought exercise:  How would you feel if I told you I were eating a 10 year old human child right now? 
So you would rather be rude and hypocritical than have an intelligent debate?

Offline Rule

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2006, 02:14:32 pm »
*yawn*

Linking to a dictionary definition doesn't make your post most authoritative.  I said good luck trying to refute peer-reviewed academic journals.  Please read what I write more carefully so I don't need to explain things. 

What you said was just bullshit.  Animals aren't intelligent?  It's ok to eat and kill them because they don't feel pain and aren't aware?  Do you have eyes?   It doesn't take a nuclear physicist to see that animals have feelings.  Referring you to studies done showing that animals have a superior intelligence to humans in many areas is overkill!  You're making the thick-headed claim that animals don't even have feelings!

No, this isn't one of those "yeah, we all have opinions and we should respect one another's ideas on these sorts of things" kind of situations.  What you're saying is dead wrong, can be empirically disproven, and is really just obviously false to anyone who's bothered to spend some time with particularly intelligent animals.   

Animals don't have feelings?  They aren't aware? Please.  Why don't you throw in, "water is a chemical element."

Offline Chavo

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2006, 02:25:32 pm »
You just COMPLETELY disregarded my post and chose to ignore the issue at hand, congratulations.

Linking to a dictionary definition is adequate proof when pointing out that your nit picking is not even accurate.  Please use some common sense so you don't make yourself look more like an idiot.

Offline Rule

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2006, 02:43:18 pm »
You just COMPLETELY disregarded my post and chose to ignore the issue at hand, congratulations.

Linking to a dictionary definition is adequate proof when pointing out that your nit picking is not even accurate.  Please use some common sense so you don't make yourself look more like an idiot.

Perhaps if you ate some more fish you'd realize that I'm not nit picking.  "Refute" is a pretty common word, and *sigh* obviously you need things explained to you in small pieces. 

To use your linked definition of refute:
Refute: "prove to be false or incorrect"

In other words, I said good luck proving that the results of peer-reviewed academic journals are "false or incorrect."  How is that nitpicking?

Also, the issue at hand is your  idiotic post here

Good job criticizing me for (supposedly) ignoring your more recent, content-free post, (you probably think this because I didn't directly quote anything), and then totally ignoring my post.

You know, I think something like Karate would do you good.  It might sharpen your mind and increase your ability to focus for more than 10 seconds.  Just some friendly advice.

Offline Chavo

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2006, 02:51:45 pm »
Perhaps if you ate some more fish you'd realize that I'm not nit picking.  "Refute" is a pretty common word, and *sigh* obviously you need things explained to you in small pieces.

To use your linked definition of refute:
Refute: "prove to be false or incorrect"

In other words, I said good luck proving that the results of peer-reviewed academic journals are "false or incorrect."  How is that nitpicking?
How is
Quote
Refute what?  Work done in peer-reviewed academic journals?  Good luck with that.  Incidentally, I noticed that you were viewing this thread before today and after I had posted my reply.
not nit-picking? Obviously you missed my statement about picking your battles...

Also, the issue at hand is your  idiotic post here .
Wrong.  I have made it abundantly clear that I have no desire of arguing the initial topic of this thread with you until you decide to be civil and use your brain.  The issue at hand is clearly noted in this post.
Its unfortunate that I left town shortly after my last reply, I would have loved to refute you myself Rule.  You seem to have no issue with presuming you are better than anyone who has a different opinion than you yet are insulted by the idea that humans might be better than animals.

Ha.

Maybe I'm being a bit blunt or rude, but what would you expect when your oppening argument is "You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.   It may sound as though I'm belittling your opinion -- that's because I am."
and the ones following it.

Good job criticizing me for (supposedly) ignoring your more recent, content-free post, (you probably think this because I didn't directly quote anything), and then totally ignoring my post.

You know, I think something like Karate would do you good.  It might sharpen your mind and increase your ability to focus for more than 10 seconds.  Just some friendly advice.
Again, you've decided to use childish insults instead of actually make an intellectual argument.  Why am I still talking to you when you have only shown that you like to use big words, not that you are capable of having an intelligent conversation?

Offline Rule

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2006, 02:59:01 pm »
I'm using big words?

Look, I'm not interested in getting into a squabble over semantics or dictionary definitions, or whether you've misinterpreted me and think I'm nitpicking about something.  It's just a waste of time, and even if we resolved that it wouldn't really matter because it's not important.

What you said in the post I linked is completely indefensible.  There is well-researched, strong evidence, counter to what you said.  Also, most people realize that animals at least have feelings, regardless of what they think specifically about animal intelligence.   This is why you're getting attitude.  There's not much to "debate."  This isn't subjective opinions we're talking about.  You're just wrong.  Game over.  2+2 != 7. 





Offline Chavo

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2006, 03:02:08 pm »
What part of
Quote
Wrong.  I have made it abundantly clear that I have no desire of arguing the initial topic of this thread with you until you decide to be civil and use your brain.  The issue at hand is clearly noted in this post.
don't you understand?

Offline Rule

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2006, 04:12:52 pm »
What part of
Quote
Wrong.  I have made it abundantly clear that I have no desire of arguing the initial topic of this thread with you until you decide to be civil and use your brain.  The issue at hand is clearly noted in this post.
don't you understand?

I explained why I am not going to fight with you over trivialities or your own pitiful misinterpretations.  I suggest you go back and re-enroll in high school instead of posting on these forums.

Offline Chavo

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2006, 04:17:09 pm »
So apparently you using childish insults while ignoring the real issue makes me unintelligent?  Your last few posts have just been "I-can-flame-you-on-the-internet-because-it-makes-me-feel-good-about-myself" and that's about it.  I'm going to take the high road and just ignore you now.

Offline Rule

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2006, 04:21:03 pm »
So apparently you using childish insults while ignoring the real issue makes me unintelligent?  Your last few posts have just been "I-can-flame-you-on-the-internet-because-it-makes-me-feel-good-about-myself" and that's about it.  I'm going to take the high road and just ignore you now.

I explained to you what the real issue was.  At least, it's the issue I am concerned with -- your moronic post.
Get it?

Hopefully you will continue to take the high road and actually think about and research your positions in the future.

Offline BigAznDaddy

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2006, 11:48:40 pm »


Note: I laugh at vegetarians and anyone else too sissy to eat meat.

i agree with you

Offline GameSnake

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Re: Test Tube Meat Nears Dinner Table
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2006, 03:18:02 am »
They put such a negative spin on that, which isn't fair. 

I hate the idea of eating animals.  So many animals suffer so much for our benefit, an absolutely unreal amount.  At the moment, I won't eat veal, and I feel some level of guilt about eating other animals, but I can't just not eat meat. 

If they could mass-produce meat that looks and tastes exactly the same without the need to torture and kill animals, I'm all for it. 

Ever thought nutrition, less-emotion-based descisions, and pureness?