Dreams

[TeHFoOoL]

Okay, this is a very quick summary of a very long arguement I had with someone in my WoW guild.

He said that:

If you have never seen an object, never heard of it, never even knew it existed, you can dream of that object and have it be recognizable, realistic, and accurate.

That's complete bullcrap. That's against all logic.. That just makes no sense.

That means a blind man would be able to have fully detailed dreams.

Or maybe I misinterpreted him, and he meant: You never have seen it, or heard of it, or new of its existance, but you still can dream it but NOT recognize it. I guess this is a possibility. Like you've never known cats exist, right. Then in one dream you see this fuzzy-four-legged alien thing ( to you ) and you are like.. "Hmm, that's funny."

But what're the chances of your mind procuring something that extremely accurate when it has nothing to base itself off of? He kept bringing up creativity, but I don't think dreams have anything to do with creativity. I said dreams are compilations of your memory and thoughts, he said it was a manifestation of what you want.

I had a dream when I was three that King Kong was chasing me through a nuclear power plant, I ran outside and hid inside a McDonald's playgym. I remember crawling through the tubes and thinking I was safe, then seeing his enormous eye peer at me and I'd scramble through the network of tubes to get away from the atrocious ape.

I can say with complete honesty that I don't want that to happen.

However, I do agree that " a manifestation of what you want " is a subcategory inside a dream, rather than being a fitting definition of "dream"

Dreams are awfully weird things, and I think they hold a -lot- of potential that we have yet to unlock. ( I think it might be a skill that's learned ~ level 50 or something.. We just need to get there. )
I

[Rule]

While I have no interest in advertising, I think my science/philosophy forum may be the best place to find people who are looking to discuss these sorts of questions .

[TeHFoOoL]

While I have no interest in advertising, I think my science/philosophy forum may be the best place to find people who are looking to discuss these sorts of questions .

lol, I can't register now.. I've been up for 54 hours.   

[CrAz3D]

While I have no interest in advertising, I think my science/philosophy forum may be the best place to find people who are looking to discuss these sorts of questions .

lol, I can't register now.. I've been up for 54 hours.   

yeah, plus the vL forums are being WAY gay...


uh, I dont think you could imagine "acurately" something that you've never seen/heard of/heard explained.  Doesnt make sense.

[GameSnake]

 I can think of what an alien looks like in my head right now, even though i've never seen it before, I can still make it up in my mind conciously, why couldn't I when i'm sleeping?

Heres an interesting quid: imagine a color never seen before - now thats impossible.

[CrAz3D]

I can think of what an alien looks like in my head right now, even though i've never seen it before, I can still make it up in my mind conciously, why couldn't I when i'm sleeping?

No, he means imagine something in your head you have no preconceived idea about......and have it match EXACTLY the real thing.


...maybe sorta like if I were to draw a shape on a piece of paper right now & you were to imagein what it looked like without seeing/hearing about it.

[MyndFyre]

Chances are you can - you just may not have consciously recognized it and processed it.  We have attentional processing which helps us sort through all the tons of information we perceive.  Like as I sit here and chat on the forum, I'm only vaguely aware of the "Cats are Democrats, Dogs are Republicans" poster to my right.  It turns out that you also have a blind spot behind your head where you're still conscious of something being there but you can't actually see it in your field of view (your retinal image is therefore slightly larger than your viewing frustrum). 

Anyway, if you'd never seen a cat but dreamt about one, it's highly likely that you actually saw one, and because it was extraneous to whatever situation you saw it in, you didn't pay attention to it, but it just happened to get filed away til you dreamt about it!

[rabbit]

But what're the chances of your mind procuring something that extremely accurate when it has nothing to base itself off of? He kept bringing up creativity, but I don't think dreams have anything to do with creativity.

chasing me through a nuclear power plant

[iago]

A few nights ago, I dreamt that I met a person who I've never met before.  The person was perfectly detailed, and somebody who I'd recognize if I was to see again. 

I am reasonably sure that you can dream anything you can imagine.  If I've never seen a cat, but I could think to myself, "I wonder what it would be like to see a small, furry, pointy-eared mammel with no respect for humans?", along with an imagined shape, then I think it would be possible to dream of it.

[TeHFoOoL]

A few nights ago, I dreamt that I met a person who I've never met before.  The person was perfectly detailed, and somebody who I'd recognize if I was to see again. 

I am reasonably sure that you can dream anything you can imagine.  If I've never seen a cat, but I could think to myself, "I wonder what it would be like to see a small, furry, pointy-eared mammel with no respect for humans?", along with an imagined shape, then I think it would be possible to dream of it.

Sure it would be, but what are the chances that what you thought up in your head is the exact same looks as a cat now?

[Sidoh]

Sure it would be, but what are the chances that what you thought up in your head is the exact same looks as a cat now?

He said it was possible, not probable.  It makes sense and it's logical.  What else is there to prove? :\

[TeHFoOoL]

Sure it would be, but what are the chances that what you thought up in your head is the exact same looks as a cat now?

He said it was possible, not probable.  It makes sense and it's logical.  What else is there to prove? :\

Okay, there's a possibility. But the chances are going to be one in a google.

[Joe]

Not that anybody could care less, but I think that's entirely possible. It's not called a dream, though, but it's called a vision, or prophecy. As for them not making sence, see the book of Revelation. That's confusing++.

[iago]

Sure it would be, but what are the chances that what you thought up in your head is the exact same looks as a cat now?

He said it was possible, not probable.  It makes sense and it's logical.  What else is there to prove? :\

Okay, there's a possibility. But the chances are going to be one in a google.

So what?  The chance is there. 

Also, I hope people noticed my humour while describing cats.  I don't really like cats

Not that anybody could care less, but I think that's entirely possible. It's not called a dream, though, but it's called a vision, or prophecy. As for them not making sence, see the book of Revelation. That's confusing++.

There's no proof that those exist in any way, so they can't be presented as proof in an argument. 

[GameSnake]

Heres an interesting quid: imagine a color never seen before - now thats impossible.

I was hoping to get input on this idea.

[MyndFyre]

Heres an interesting quid: imagine a color never seen before - now thats impossible.

I was hoping to get input on this idea.

Humans have a very specific range of perceptible colors.  It's likely that you've probably seen pretty much every shade of every color within that range.

[d&q]

How do you know that what you see as "green", is actually viewed as a completely different color by other people? For all you know, the "blue" you always see might look orange to others.

[iago]

How do you know that what you see as "green", is actually viewed as a completely different color by other people? For all you know, the "blue" you always see might look orange to others.

I've thought about that.  But then I realized, who cares?  It dosn't affect anything. 

But the idea that everybody perceives the Universe differently is an interesting one, although one that I'm not entirely prepared to subscribe to.

[MyndFyre]

How do you know that what you see as "green", is actually viewed as a completely different color by other people? For all you know, the "blue" you always see might look orange to others.

It might be, but it's irrelevant, since it would always be labelled "blue."  In the case of colorblind people, we can tell fairly quickly.

[Sidoh]

How do you know that what you see as "green", is actually viewed as a completely different color by other people? For all you know, the "blue" you always see might look orange to others.

Genetics, physics and careful analysis of the human eye.

[d&q]

@Myndfyre: For the most part, colorblind people just can't tell some colors apart (blue/green, orange/red). It wouldn't matter how they view it, it just matters that they can't make the distinction.

@Sidoh: I've thought of that, but I tried searching for it a few months ago and I couldn't find anything that definitively proves that we all view colors, or like iago said, even the universe, in the same way. Maybe I'm just a bad googler  .

[Sidoh]

@Sidoh: I've thought of that, but I tried searching for it a few months ago and I couldn't find anything that definitively proves that we all view colors, or like iago said, even the universe, in the same way. Maybe I'm just a bad googler  .

Genes define how the eyes are formed.  Physics define how the eye percieve light and how the brain interpets it.  There's nothing mystical about it.

[Rule]

@Sidoh: I've thought of that, but I tried searching for it a few months ago and I couldn't find anything that definitively proves that we all view colors, or like iago said, even the universe, in the same way. Maybe I'm just a bad googler  .

Genes define how the eyes are formed.  Physics define how the eye percieve light and how the brain interpets it.  There's nothing mystical about it.

I think he's talking about something more subtle.  If I understand him correctly, it's something I've thought about too, but it's somewhat hard to express properly:

Every colour has a unique wavelength.  Imagine this wavelength as a "key" and whatever image we see as a "value". 

Wavelength                    My Value                   Your Value
533 nm (Red)                                  Y                                            X
...
(Blue)                                              X                                            Y
...
(Green)                                           Z                                            Z

etc.

Now as long as we have a unique "value" for every unique "key" we could both see red and blue, and agree which is red and which is blue, and there would be no confusion.  Even though you visualize blue the way I visualize red, we would never be able to express that, because we both can identify unambiguously red and blue and agree on which is which.

This seems possible in my mind, for example, because of how people tend to describe various tastes differently yet agree (after tasting some sample) on what food it is they are tasting.  E.g. You and I may taste halibut differently, but we both know when we've eaten halibut!

[MyndFyre]

Yes Rule, you stated it precisely as I meant.

[Sidoh]

That's what I thought he was talking about.  It's an interesting subject; I've thought about it before too.  It seems that a lot of people have.  When I get into discussions with some people, they'll bring this or something similar up.

I'm not sure, though.  I think there would still have to be a pretty strict structure to it.  This "proof" does contain subjectivity, but not enough to go unconsidered, I think.

Many people agree that some colors "don't go well together" in clothing.  Fashion designers back away from using certain colors together because they "clash."  They do this because they agree with this commonly known "fact" and don't want to lose profit because their products will generally be thought of as ugly.

[Rule]

That's what I thought he was talking about.  It's an interesting subject; I've thought about it before too.  It seems that a lot of people have.  When I get into discussions with some people, they'll bring this or something similar up.

I'm not sure, though.  I think there would still have to be a pretty strict structure to it.  This "proof" does contain subjectivity, but not enough to go unconsidered, I think.

Many people agree that some colors "don't go well together" in clothing.  Fashion designers back away from using certain colors together because they "clash."  They do this because they agree with this commonly known "fact" and don't want to lose profit because their products will generally be thought of as ugly.

True, but at the same time there is a lot of clash in people's personal tastes in colours. 

It's hard to say -- it's probably one of those things we'll never find out, which makes it kind of interesting. Intuitively I agree though, there probably isn't much difference in the way each individual visualizes a particular colour, although I wouldn't be surprised if there was some difference on occasion -- especially considering how
colourblind people merely have the same "value" for red and green: is that value what others have for red, for green, or is it something completely different?

I wasn't sure whether or not people had interpreted Deuce properly because I've tried to explain this in 'real life' and people usually end up misinterpreting what I'm saying.  I'm surprised so many people here have thought about it -- and here I was thinking how creative my idea is .

[d&q]

I have always wondered what the universe actually looks like. Not a very good way to put it, but how it actually "is", not how we view it.

On a vaguely interesting side note, the person who brought this up with me was completely stoned out of his mind.

[MyndFyre]

I have always wondered what the universe actually looks like. Not a very good way to put it, but how it actually "is", not how we view it.

On a vaguely interesting side note, the person who brought this up with me was completely stoned out of his mind.

It can only really be the way we view it, because we could never know that it's anything else. 

[GameSnake]

I have always wondered what the universe actually looks like. Not a very good way to put it, but how it actually "is", not how we view it.

On a vaguely interesting side note, the person who brought this up with me was completely stoned out of his mind.

It can only really be the way we view it, because we could never know that it's anything else. 

I've oft wonderd that too.

[MyndFyre]

I have always wondered what the universe actually looks like. Not a very good way to put it, but how it actually "is", not how we view it.

On a vaguely interesting side note, the person who brought this up with me was completely stoned out of his mind.

It can only really be the way we view it, because we could never know that it's anything else. 

I've oft wonderd that too.

Deuce's friend, a stoner.  GameSnake, a stoner.  Coincidence?

[Furious]

I can think of what an alien looks like in my head right now, even though i've never seen it before, I can still make it up in my mind conciously, why couldn't I when i'm sleeping?

Heres an interesting quid: imagine a color never seen before - now thats impossible.

"Aliens" are portrated in many different ways, so how have you seen one?

[TeHFoOoL]

I can think of what an alien looks like in my head right now, even though i've never seen it before, I can still make it up in my mind conciously, why couldn't I when i'm sleeping?

Heres an interesting quid: imagine a color never seen before - now thats impossible.

"Aliens" are portrated in many different ways, so how have you seen one?

Maybe Earth is just an alien experiment.

Really, we will never really know until we get much much much more sophisticated technology, but personally I don't think we'll ever develop the kind of technology we need to confirm any of this.