Author Topic: Perspectives.  (Read 7899 times)

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Offline d&q

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Perspectives.
« on: June 26, 2006, 07:06:45 pm »
I want to know why people think killing is bad. Yeah. I mean, I'm not necessarily arguing that is is wrong/right, I'm wondering WHY you think its wrong(possibly right?). Many topics and arguments have dealt almost directly with death/arguable murder, such as capital punishment and abortion. Why is it that many people feel almost nothing in terms of grief when they read (miner killed in mudslide in Russia), but feel grief when someone close to you has died. I would think, whenever someone dies, its because you loved them and would miss them. But what exactly does do you miss about them? If someone managed to completely duplicate the person's body and personality, would that fulfill the emptiness? Or do you believe the person has a soul, and that soul is forever lost? That also leads me to another question. I'll relate to it in terms of cars(since many of you love them :)). If you had a car, and replaced the interior and the engine, you would still consider it the same car. What if you then replaced the tires? Then the rims? If you eventually replace all of it, would it still be the car you so dearly loved? How much of a thing can be missing until the part you loved is gone?

Feel free to seperate alot of this, it was just questions popping up in my head that I would like answered.
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Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2006, 07:46:02 pm »
uhm, taking a life ... takes their life away.  That cant be too fun for them.

As far as the connection, yeah, I feel closer to people I know.  Like if one of you guys died I'd miss talkin with you...but I would get over it quicker than if my mom died.

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2006, 08:14:11 pm »
I want to know why people think killing is bad. Yeah. I mean, I'm not necessarily arguing that is is wrong/right, I'm wondering WHY you think its wrong(possibly right?). Many topics and arguments have dealt almost directly with death/arguable murder, such as capital punishment and abortion.
Some sociologists/political theorists might argue that it is because, when we become part of society, we give tacit agreement not to kill one another.  Everyone wants to live; in fact, Locke theorized that it is one of three basic rights (life, liberty, and property).  In order to preserve the right to life, we agree not to infringe on others' rights to life.  (There was one other right Locke offered -- the right to, essentially, be judge, jury, and executioner when one of your other three rights are violated).  Because we expect everyone to abide by the social contract, killing someone else - thereby depriving them of their right to life - is negatively stigmatized.  It's also indicative that you are willing to sacrifice your own right to life, which is where the death penalty comes from.  ("If someone tries to kill you, you kill them right back.  You got a right to live and try to kill people, just like anyone else." --Mal Reynolds).

Why is it that many people feel almost nothing in terms of grief when they read (miner killed in mudslide in Russia), but feel grief when someone close to you has died. I would think, whenever someone dies, its because you loved them and would miss them. But what exactly does do you miss about them?
This is somewhat a separate question to answer.  Social psychology answers it through social evolutionary theory: what is the prime goal of all organisms?  To survive and pass on their genetic material.  Your kin are much closer to your kin genetically than that miner in Russia.  We develop socially in ways that reinforce this sense or desire of preservation.

If someone managed to completely duplicate the person's body and personality, would that fulfill the emptiness? Or do you believe the person has a soul, and that soul is forever lost?
Since I'm not sure whether a "soul" (or what I equate it to, sentience) can be replaced or is forever lost.  It's too abstract a question for me to answer, although I believe that "it would never be the same."

That also leads me to another question. I'll relate to it in terms of cars(since many of you love them :)). If you had a car, and replaced the interior and the engine, you would still consider it the same car. What if you then replaced the tires? Then the rims? If you eventually replace all of it, would it still be the car you so dearly loved? How much of a thing can be missing until the part you loved is gone?
I imagine if I put that much into the car, it would still be the same car, and I would love it all the more.
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Offline d&q

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2006, 08:23:51 pm »
For now I'm just going to reply to one part of your great response  ;D.

What I mean is, what if you completely replaced the original parts of the car over time? You might be able to love it, but would you love it as the original car you bought? Or as a better, new car?
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Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2006, 08:25:45 pm »
For now I'm just going to reply to one part of your great response  ;D.

What I mean is, what if you completely replaced the original parts of the car over time? You might be able to love it, but would you love it as the original car you bought? Or as a better, new car?
The same car.
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Offline d&q

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2006, 08:30:18 pm »
How about in terms of people? If you truly loved someone(my definition of love is a passion for someone that is endless, but thats arguable), and they left for 10 years, had a complete incorrigible personality change, and extensive drug use and plastic surgery to the point of being unrecognizable, would you still love them? And I mean really love them, not have lingering caring feelings.
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Offline iago

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2006, 11:28:58 pm »
Didn't I read somewhere that our skin is completely replaced every 6 months, or something?  That's kind of the same idea. :P

Offline Eric

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2006, 11:51:36 pm »
Didn't I read somewhere that our skin is completely replaced every 6 months, or something?  That's kind of the same idea. :P

The neurons in our brains are continuously dying, being replaced and forming new connections, as well.  Physically, our bodies are constantly undergoing change.  You, for example, aren't the same person you were a month ago, or even a few moments ago for that matter.  Who are you, iago?!

Offline dark_drake

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2006, 01:19:30 am »
I want to know why people think killing is bad. Yeah. I mean, I'm not necessarily arguing that is is wrong/right, I'm wondering WHY you think its wrong(possibly right?). Many topics and arguments have dealt almost directly with death/arguable murder, such as capital punishment and abortion.
I liked MyndFyre's answer.  Also, though, it's against nearly every religion's code of ethics to do this sort of thing.  For example, the Ten Commandments forbid killing in Christianity and the Noble Eightfold Path forbids it in Buddhism.
Why is it that many people feel almost nothing in terms of grief when they read (miner killed in mudslide in Russia), but feel grief when someone close to you has died. I would think, whenever someone dies, its because you loved them and would miss them.
There is no emotional attachment to that miner, so we just think, "oh well, shit happens."  We don't actually realize what grief that miner's death would have caused to his loved one. When someone dies close to us, we have lost someone very near and dear to us.  There is a hole in our lives where that person used to be.
But what exactly does do you miss about them? If someone managed to completely duplicate the person's body and personality, would that fulfill the emptiness? Or do you believe the person has a soul, and that soul is forever lost?
I'd probably miss everything about the person.  Also, I actually believe that the soul is not duplicable, and therefore, that the person is not the same.  When that person dies, his soul leaves this plane of existance.  I realize that they'd act the same, but I would be unable to treat them as such as they just aren't them.
That also leads me to another question. I'll relate to it in terms of cars(since many of you love them :)). If you had a car, and replaced the interior and the engine, you would still consider it the same car. What if you then replaced the tires? Then the rims? If you eventually replace all of it, would it still be the car you so dearly loved? How much of a thing can be missing until the part you loved is gone?
Well, I would feel it's the same car.  I wouldn't change something I didn't want/need in it, so I would still love it just as much, if not more.
[/quote]
How about in terms of people? If you truly loved someone(my definition of love is a passion for someone that is endless, but thats arguable), and they left for 10 years, had a complete incorrigible personality change, and extensive drug use and plastic surgery to the point of being unrecognizable, would you still love them? And I mean really love them, not have lingering caring feelings.
As I've never loved someone that much, I don't feel I'm qualified to give a good answer.  However, my answer is no, I wouldn't love them.  They completely changed for the worse, and the parts I would have fallen in love with are gone.  It's very different from the idea of replacing the parts of a car.  Everytime I would have changed the car, it would have been an improvement or something necessary to keep it going, so the car would become more of what I would want and love.
errr... something like that...

Offline Joe

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2006, 01:33:57 am »
Here's my reasoning: "Thou shalt not kill."
I'd personally do as Joe suggests

You might be right about that, Joe.


Offline d&q

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2006, 02:02:23 am »
That's not reasoning.
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Offline Sidoh

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2006, 02:10:08 am »
That's not reasoning.

Yes it is.  Despite its convoluted nature, it is reasoning.

Offline Joe

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2006, 02:22:13 am »
Here's two situations:

Guy 1: Kill that dude.
Guy 2: Ok.
Guy 3 dies.
Guy 1: Now kill that dude.
Guy 4: Ok.
Guy 2 dies.

If I'm going to kill someone for no reason, who's to say I'm protected from that same fate? By my same "why not" reasoning, the fourth person has every reason in the world to kill the second (me).

Second:

Guy 1: Kill that dude.
Guy 2: Ok.
Guy 3 dies.
God: Haha, looks like fun.
Guy 2 dies.

God doesn't like it when you kill people. Who's to say you won't make him mad?

EDIT -
Of course, I don't expect everyone here to accept the second, but the first should be good.
I'd personally do as Joe suggests

You might be right about that, Joe.


Offline Hitmen

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2006, 10:35:19 am »
There is nothing wrong with killing. Those stupid liberals are just trying to take away our rights to kill as we please.
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Offline TeHFoOoL

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2006, 03:07:28 pm »
There is nothing wrong with killing. Those stupid liberals are just trying to take away our rights to kill as we please.

..           ......         .................................................   

Uh. Hopefully I'm misinterpreting you when I think that you believe that anyone can kill anyone else without punishment?

Can't fool a FoOoL

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2006, 04:00:02 pm »
..           ......         .................................................   

Uh. Hopefully I'm misinterpreting you when I think that you believe that anyone can kill anyone else without punishment?

Hitmen is just really fucked up. :P

He's for eating babies too.

Offline rabbit

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2006, 09:35:37 pm »
God doesn't like it when you kill people. Who's to say you won't make him mad?
Because God gave us Free Will (according to the Torah/Quran/Bible).  If God didn't want people killing each other, do you think there would be war, sociopaths, serial killers, etc...?  Please, learn the book you worship COMPLETELY before you go around saying something.

@MyndFyre:
Indirect, but still kind of on topic, but not really: Was it Locke who stated that people join society because they understand it's a better way to get power than being an individual, or was it someone else?

Offline d&q

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2006, 10:00:17 pm »
God doesn't like it when you kill people. Who's to say you won't make him mad?
Because God gave us Free Will (according to the Torah/Quran/Bible).  If God didn't want people killing each other, do you think there would be war, sociopaths, serial killers, etc...?  Please, learn the book you worship COMPLETELY before you go around saying something.

I think you're just trying to bash Joe again. Just because we have the option of killing people does not mean that we should. God said we shall not kill, steal, disobeye parents, etc. We have the ability to do those things, but Christians(and obviously others) don't. I don't see how you could possibly think that God wanted people killing each other. And for the record, many people don't COMPLETELY know about the Bible. That's one reason why we have pastors/priests; to help us understand/interpret key parts of the bible.
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Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2006, 10:07:52 pm »
@rabbit: Locke said we join society to protect our right to life and property, and mostly liberty (although we have to give up some "liberty" rights in order to enter into society).

Also @rabbit: whether the Bible says that people have free will is contested.
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Offline rabbit

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2006, 10:10:04 pm »
Free Will and the Ten Commandments are almost right next to each other.  And no, I'm not bashing Joe.  The punishment for breaking a Commandment is a eternal after-existence without God (ie "hell").  God does not punish his creations for using their [lit] God given Free Will.

And please don't accuse me of things.

@Myndfyre: Calvinists are weird anyway.  Even the Mormons believe in Free Will.  Anyway, Joe isn't a Calvinist, so that particular belief structure section doesn't apply to him, and my argument still stands.

Offline Joe

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2006, 10:41:05 pm »
Here, let pastor Joe explain this to you. God is omnipotent and benevolent, meaning that he knows everything and he has your best in mind. Obviously you know that.

However, a parent is benevolent to their children. They don't want them to get hurt. HOWEVER, they will still let them ride a bike with the potential of falling over, and when they get older they can still drive with the potential of wrapping their car around a pine tree.

God's permissive will allows people to kill eachother. If everything went by God's perfect will, like Heaven does, then nobody would kill anybody because the bible says "thou shalt not kill".

Unfortunately I can't make it any simpler. *sigh*

EDIT -
Sorry for coming off as a jackass. =)

EDIT -
Also, you've got the Jewish punishment for breaking a commandment. In Christianity, there is no punishment for breaking a Bible law, asuming you repent. Being cleansed from sins is simple.

Romans 10:9-13:
Quote
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 10:46:19 pm by Joe »
I'd personally do as Joe suggests

You might be right about that, Joe.


Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2006, 10:51:30 pm »
@ "Pastor" Joe: clicky:P

@rabbit: I believe that you're saying, because God *could* stop murder but doesn't, it's God's fault that there is murder.  I don't believe this is accurate.  It's the person's choice who commits murder.

Besides, you wouldn't know if God *did* prevent a murder, now would you?
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Offline Joe

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2006, 11:04:09 pm »
@MyndFyre: Ouch.
I'd personally do as Joe suggests

You might be right about that, Joe.


Offline Hitmen

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2006, 02:02:16 am »
There is nothing wrong with killing. Those stupid liberals are just trying to take away our rights to kill as we please.

..           ......         .................................................   

Uh. Hopefully I'm misinterpreting you when I think that you believe that anyone can kill anyone else without punishment?
That depends on whether or not "anyone else" is a baby and/or the flesh of the sacrificed is going to be consumed.

edit:
Hitmen is just really fucked up. :P

He's for eating babies too.
hahaha, I think sidoh wins
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Offline rabbit

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2006, 07:58:14 am »
@rabbit: I believe that you're saying, because God *could* stop murder but doesn't, it's God's fault that there is murder.  I don't believe this is accurate.  It's the person's choice who commits murder.

Besides, you wouldn't know if God *did* prevent a murder, now would you?
My point isn't that it's God's fault murder happens, it's that a Commandment isn't the best reason to not kill someone, because Free Will and a malevolent God (punishing God, if you prefer) do not fit together.  It's still the killer's fault s/he's killed someone/many.

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2006, 11:41:38 am »
@rabbit: I believe that you're saying, because God *could* stop murder but doesn't, it's God's fault that there is murder.  I don't believe this is accurate.  It's the person's choice who commits murder.

Besides, you wouldn't know if God *did* prevent a murder, now would you?
My point isn't that it's God's fault murder happens, it's that a Commandment isn't the best reason to not kill someone, because Free Will and a malevolent God (punishing God, if you prefer) do not fit together.  It's still the killer's fault s/he's killed someone/many.
While I don't necessarily think that the Christian God is a malevolent god, I'm curious to know why you don't think free will and malevolence go together.
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Offline rabbit

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2006, 12:42:23 pm »
Because if God gave Free Will to Man and then gave some rules and a definite punishment (hell) for all sinners, why would He punish the living?

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2006, 12:51:41 pm »
Because if God gave Free Will to Man and then gave some rules and a definite punishment (hell) for all sinners, why would He punish the living?

How is God punishing the living?
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Offline iago

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Re: Perspectives.
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2006, 01:56:56 pm »
For anybody who cares, this story is about the nature of evil and sin, and why "murder" isn't, as such, a sin:

http://gaslight.mtroyal.ca/whtpeopl.htm

I've only read the prologue so far, but this line stood out:

Quote
"[....] I believe that the misconception--it is all but universal--arises in great measure from our looking at the matter through social spectacles. We think that a man who does evil to us and to his neighbours must be very evil. So he is, from a social standpoint; but can't you realize that Evil in its essence is a lonely thing, a passion of the solitary, individual soul? Really, the average murderer, quâ murderer, is not by any means a sinner in the true sense of the word. He is simply a wild beast that we have to get rid of to save our own necks from his knife. I should class him rather with tigers than with sinners."