What Linux can learn from Microsoft

[Newby]

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS5991301042.html

I also think that the sheer number of distributions is what also tears Linux apart. When you buy Windows, you buy just that. Windows. When you install a Linux distro, there are so many different variations of what you could get. Your average home user isn't gonna like that.

[Warrior]

I've said this before as well, until they can have one common format for most things then it won't work. Until they can have some sort of Documentation (Vista's Help center is amazing) then it won't work either. What about tech support for people using it on the desktop? Linux is good but it lacks the "Fit and finish" that Windows products usually have.

I also disagree heavily with what he says about Office 12, the ribbons are it's best feature. He probably hasn't even used Office 12..

And I'm still skeptical about the "By this time next year Linux, not Microsoft would hold the the advantage of Common Interfaces"

That doesn't seem like it will happen at all unless Linux changed how it works completely.

[MyndFyre]

Microsoft is getting to blow this one, though. The Office 12 interface is brand new, and many users see it as a major annoyance. At the same time, Linux is getting its act together, The Portland Project, a working group of all the major Linux desktop players, is helping develop not just common APIs (application programming interfaces), but common user interfaces as well.

While I'm not a particularly big fan of Office 12, I'm going to weigh in on this remark.

I've watched my mom use Office for a long time.  I'm a big user of shortcut keys - I figured out by the time I was 15 that the shortcut keys for superscript and subscript were CTRL+SHIFT+= and CTRL+=, respectively, and to increase a font size press CTRL+] (CTRL+[ decreases).  I learned these things because it was taking forever to do it manually for chemistry homework.

Back to my mom.  I made her a list of common keyboard shortcuts.  I taped them to her screen.  She still uses the mouse to get around.  Whereas I compulsively type ALT+F, S to save my documents, she either clicks the disk icon or goes to the file menu to click Save.

I think that for the general luser population the interface change will be good.  Microsoft (if you read their developers documentation) is changing its user interface focus to task-based workflow, which has evidently been the result of the last ten years of psychological studies and focus groups.  Their new documentation strategy is a "What would you like to do?" strategy, with topics for tasks instead of the traditional help system.

It'll really piss off current power users the most, which will be the people who write the articles and whatnot, because while they haven't changed *too* much around, there's just enough to be annoying.  Like the Format menu in Word is no longer Alt+O, so knowing that the paragraph dialog was Alt+O, P screws me up.  I haven't actually done anything substantive in Word 2007 though, so I don't know if there's even a paragraph dialog box anymore.  So yeah, I hate the new menu (or "ribbons" if that's what you're referring to), but I'll get used to it.

I also think that the sheer number of distributions is what also tears Linux apart. When you buy Windows, you buy just that. Windows. When you install a Linux distro, there are so many different variations of what you could get. Your average home user isn't gonna like that.

That's an interesting point.  Plus software comes in many varieties for each specific distro, and I've run into not being able to find software for a distro that I was using.  Like, while I love fedora core, I can't find XMMS for it.  Or I can't get it to compile.  Or something.  It's frustrating.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

[Ergot]

That's an interesting point.  Plus software comes in many varieties for each specific distro, and I've run into not being able to find software for a distro that I was using.  Like, while I love fedora core, I can't find XMMS for it.  Or I can't get it to compile.  Or something.  It's frustrating.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

That's the reason I left Red Hat behind.

[iago]

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS5991301042.html

I also think that the sheer number of distributions is what also tears Linux apart. When you buy Windows, you buy just that. Windows. When you install a Linux distro, there are so many different variations of what you could get. Your average home user isn't gonna like that.

Isn't Windows Vista going to have like 10 different versions?  Isn't that going to be the same mistake?

[Sidoh]

Isn't Windows Vista going to have like 10 different versions?  Isn't that going to be the same mistake?

Not really.  While I don't agree with spliting the OS into 8 different versions, the version names I did see were fairly intuitive.  An average computer user isn't going to be able to tell you any differences in features from just hearing the names "Slackware Linux" and "Fedora Core 5."

[MyndFyre]

Isn't Windows Vista going to have like 10 different versions?  Isn't that going to be the same mistake?

Windows software is binary compatible.

When I want updates, I don't have to recompile my kernel or my source code.  I don't need to download an RPM or make <blah> something so that it's linked with my libraries.  I don't even need to recompile my drivers across different versions of Windows unless I intend to backport them to Windows 95 or so (even Windows 98 supported WDM, and NDIS was supported as long ago as Windows 3.11).

If you had to obtain different kinds of software to run on different flavors of Windows Vista, then yes, it would be the same mistake.  But the kernel, the executive, the memory manager, the security subsystems - they're all the same.  I hesitate to even say that the user-mode execution environment is different; the shell might vary slightly across flavors, but no.

The different editions of Windows Vista will be based around what peripheral software is included.  Business editions don't need Media Center, for instance, and home users don't need the encrypting file system, BitLocker, or Internet Information Services.  The only thing that might be significantly different is the starter edition, but that's designed for markets that we probably won't ever be a part of.

I'm not quite sure why this is so difficult for you to grasp.  Even Ergot understood what I had to say about software availability.  You go to a website, and they have software for Ubuntu, Debian, general Linux, etc.  Then your source tree has different dependencies... Ugh.  And now it's being addled with even more distributions with x64.  With Windows all I need to do to make sure software is working is stick to the Win32 API.  Or, if I know I need to go back as far as Windows 98, I know the .NET Framework binaries will be binary-compatible even on x64.

[iago]

Windows software is binary compatible.

So is the majority of Linux software, and statically-linked Linux software.  But Linux users happen to prefer source.

When I want updates, I don't have to recompile my kernel or my source code.  I don't need to download an RPM or make <blah> something so that it's linked with my libraries.  I don't even need to recompile my drivers across different versions of Windows unless I intend to backport them to Windows 95 or so (even Windows 98 supported WDM, and NDIS was supported as long ago as Windows 3.11).

Depending on which distro you use, you probably don't have to recompile your source.  Most distros keep the kernel up to date and make it easy to update it.  And again, if something is statically linked, then you don't have to recompile everything.  It's the same as Windows -- if you want to use dynamic linking, you're going to end up with version issues.

If you had to obtain different kinds of software to run on different flavors of Windows Vista, then yes, it would be the same mistake.  But the kernel, the executive, the memory manager, the security subsystems - they're all the same.  I hesitate to even say that the user-mode execution environment is different; the shell might vary slightly across flavors, but no.

You don't on Linux, either.  The way it's distributed is the way Linux users prefer, not that way that's required.  Look at Opera and VMWare -- both are binary packages that work across all Linux versions. 

The different editions of Windows Vista will be based around what peripheral software is included.  Business editions don't need Media Center, for instance, and home users don't need the encrypting file system, BitLocker, or Internet Information Services.  The only thing that might be significantly different is the starter edition, but that's designed for markets that we probably won't ever be a part of.

Isn't that the problem with Linux that was brought up?  How will a dumb user know what somebody is talking about when they say, "you don't get BitLocker but you do get Media"?  How is that any different from comparing "Slackware" to "Red Hat"?

I'm not quite sure why this is so difficult for you to grasp.  Even Ergot understood what I had to say about software availability.  You go to a website, and they have software for Ubuntu, Debian, general Linux, etc.  Then your source tree has different dependencies... Ugh.  And now it's being addled with even more distributions with x64.  With Windows all I need to do to make sure software is working is stick to the Win32 API.  Or, if I know I need to go back as far as Windows 98, I know the .NET Framework binaries will be binary-compatible even on x64.

Yet again, they don't have to.  Opera, VMWare, Firefox (all Mozilla software), Cedega, OpenOffice, for example, provide a single binary package.  So do lots of others.  I don't see what's so difficult for you to grasp that your "problem" is done because that's what many users prefer, not because it's a requirement. 

[MyndFyre]

I don't see what's so difficult for you to grasp that your "problem" is done because that's what many users prefer, not because it's a requirement. 

If so many users prefer it, why does Linux have such little desktop marketshare?

[iago]

I don't see what's so difficult for you to grasp that your "problem" is done because that's what many users prefer, not because it's a requirement. 

If so many users prefer it, why does Linux have such little desktop marketshare?

Sorry, I meant it's what LINUX users prefer.  There are distros out there that don't require any knowledge of compiling, like Suse that doesn't even come with a compiler by default. 

But like I said, there is a lot of Linux software that runs on every distro, and it is possible (even easy) to make software that does.  So that's not the problem, despite what you seem to think. 

[Newby]

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS5991301042.html

I also think that the sheer number of distributions is what also tears Linux apart. When you buy Windows, you buy just that. Windows. When you install a Linux distro, there are so many different variations of what you could get. Your average home user isn't gonna like that.

Isn't Windows Vista going to have like 10 different versions?  Isn't that going to be the same mistake?

You know what the difference is between the 5 versions of Vista?

Some registry keys and some software installed.

That's it. 75% of the versions are practically the same. From my experience, the only difference is registry keys and a download for "Ultimate Edition package".

[Joe]

As for the distribution problem, get Ubuntu. Sure, APT is lazy, but it's right there. Do you want XMMS for Ubuntu? sudo apt-get install xmms.

[Ergot]

Same with yum, pacman, emerge, etc...

[iago]

You know what the difference is between the 5 versions of Vista?

Some registry keys and some software installed.

That's it. 75% of the versions are practically the same. From my experience, the only difference is registry keys and a download for "Ultimate Edition package".

I guess that means they're artificially creating a problem in an attempt to make money.  I wonder if it'll boost or harm sales...

[MyndFyre]

You know what the difference is between the 5 versions of Vista?

Some registry keys and some software installed.

That's it. 75% of the versions are practically the same. From my experience, the only difference is registry keys and a download for "Ultimate Edition package".

I guess that means they're artificially creating a problem in an attempt to make money.  I wonder if it'll boost or harm sales...

Well, you're the communist and they're the capitalist pigs.  I'd guess that they probably have the marketing strategies down better. 

[Newby]

I guess that means they're artificially creating a problem in an attempt to make money.  I wonder if it'll boost or harm sales...

They're creating no problem. It'll boost sales like mad. Not everyone is going to want the ultimate edition because it'll be so expensive, and there aren't really that many more awesome features in it over say, the Home edition.

[Warrior]

Ultimate Edition features Flicker and Tear free drawing using Aero and the optional 3D affects acompanied by it. It also features everything in every individual version of Windows Vista including the Buisiness class apps and the Media Center. Sometimes people just want it all. MS offers them the option to upgrade to another version if they decide they want Ultimate.

[iago]

So we just need to find a couple pirates that have volume licenses for Ultimate, and everything will be simple again. 

[MyndFyre]

So we just need to find a couple pirates that have volume licenses for Ultimate, and everything will be simple again. 

I thought you didn't advocate piracy. 

[Warrior]

So we just need to find a couple pirates that have volume licenses for Ultimate, and everything will be simple again. 

I don't know if it's that simple. It could be. I mean you'd still need to actually get the bundled software and the difference in registry keys means that possible Aero WDCM components wouldn't be installed. If you could find them and replace them I think it's possible.

What I plan on doing: Getting home basic and as I get more money update to Ultimate for a reduced price later.

[Ergot]

So we just need to find a couple pirates that have volume licenses for Ultimate, and everything will be simple again. 

I thought you didn't advocate piracy. 

I'd say this is more like Robin Hooding...

[iago]

I don't advocate piracy, and I don't intend to use Windows Vista at home.  But with all the anti-piracy stuff they're doing, all somebody needs is to get ahold of a volume license key and they're set. 

[Warrior]

I don't advocate piracy, and I don't intend to use Windows Vista at home.  But with all the anti-piracy stuff they're doing, all somebody needs is to get ahold of a volume license key and they're set. 

Like I said, I really doubt it's that easy.

[Chavo]

I don't advocate piracy, and I don't intend to use Windows Vista at home.  But with all the anti-piracy stuff they're doing, all somebody needs is to get ahold of a volume license key and they're set. 

Like I said, I really doubt it's that easy.

It is almost that easy with XP.  You just need a volume license key and a version that accepts a volume license key.  The only "protection" they've put in for that is blacklisting known pirated volume license keys and annoying people with WGA.

[iago]

I don't advocate piracy, and I don't intend to use Windows Vista at home.  But with all the anti-piracy stuff they're doing, all somebody needs is to get ahold of a volume license key and they're set. 

Like I said, I really doubt it's that easy.

It is almost that easy with XP.  You just need a volume license key and a version that accepts a volume license key.  The only "protection" they've put in for that is blacklisting known pirated volume license keys and annoying people with WGA.

It IS that easy with XP.  I know a lot of people who have legit-ish keys. 

[Chavo]

I was pointing out that having a volume license key is not enough   You have to have a volume license version of the OS as well or the installer will not accept the key.

[Newby]

What I plan on doing: Getting home basic and as I get more money update to Ultimate for a reduced price later.

What I plan on doing: Vista Ultimate Edition at 1/10th the price.

[Warrior]

What I plan on doing: Getting home basic and as I get more money update to Ultimate for a reduced price later.

What I plan on doing: Vista Ultimate Edition at 1/10th the price.

Sell it to me, I'll give you 2/10th the price. Make a profit!

[deadly7]

At this rate, it [Vista] won't be out till like.. next school year (07-08), which means I could get a college kid discount.

[Warrior]

At this rate, it [Vista] won't be out till like.. next school year (07-08), which means I could get a college kid discount.

Probably, slated for 07

[Newby]

At this rate, it [Vista] won't be out till like.. next school year (07-08), which means I could get a college kid discount.

Probably, slated for 07

Slated.

Nelson, if I get any spare copies, I'll hook you up for free.

[Joe]

Me too. Thanks.

[Ergot]

At this rate, it [Vista] won't be out till like.. next school year (07-08), which means I could get a college kid discount.

Probably, slated for 07

Slated.

Nelson, if I get any spare copies, I'll hook you up for free.

He doesn't need a spare copy... he's suppose to get me a free copy.

[Newby]

Me too. Thanks.

I'm not mailing you a copy of Vista, nor am I sending you a Vista ISO when you're on dial-up. You lose.

Plus, you're supposed to be a Linux whore. Nelson breathes Windows; it's the least I can do.

[iago]

What I plan on doing: Getting home basic and as I get more money update to Ultimate for a reduced price later.

What I plan on doing: Vista Ultimate Edition at 1/10th the price.

I don't plan on installing it at all, even if it's free.  I'm too afraid of the Trusted Computing stuff that they will eventually force you to run...

[MyndFyre]

Me too. Thanks.

I'm not mailing you a copy of Vista, nor am I sending you a Vista ISO when you're on dial-up. You lose.

What about me?  I'm a RL friend now! 

[deadly7]

Slated.

Nelson, if I get any spare copies, I'll hook you up for free.

Me, too.  How can I provide tech support if I've never used the OS?!

[Newby]

What about me?  I'm a RL friend now! 

Maybe. =o

[iago]

Warrior and MyndFyre -- you guys seem to like Microsoft a lot, so why wouldn't you buy their product and support them?  If you're preaching that commercial software is great and charging for a product is fine, then you should be out paying for it.  It only makes sense!

[Warrior]

Warrior and MyndFyre -- you guys seem to like Microsoft a lot, so why wouldn't you buy their product and support them?  If you're preaching that commercial software is great and charging for a product is fine, then you should be out paying for it.  It only makes sense!

Everyone knows real preachers dont practice what they preach! Actually I would if I weren't in such of a bind with money.

[MyndFyre]

Warrior and MyndFyre -- you guys seem to like Microsoft a lot, so why wouldn't you buy their product and support them?  If you're preaching that commercial software is great and charging for a product is fine, then you should be out paying for it.  It only makes sense!

I probably will.  It's still rational to try to do better in cost.  I might like Microsoft, but not so much so that I'd irrationally pay a lot more money for something that I could get cheaper (hence why I got an MSDN subscription with 10 installations of all workstation Windows, 1 of each Server product, and 10 Office installations) for $1000 as a student instead of just buying those products individually.

[iago]

I probably will.  It's still rational to try to do better in cost.  I might like Microsoft, but not so much so that I'd irrationally pay a lot more money for something that I could get cheaper (hence why I got an MSDN subscription with 10 installations of all workstation Windows, 1 of each Server product, and 10 Office installations) for $1000 as a student instead of just buying those products individually.

So do you think that Microsoft charges too much for their products? :-P

(If this was Slashdot, it would be modded to Flamebait.. don't read much into this, I'm just poking fun)

[MyndFyre]

So do you think that Microsoft charges too much for their products? :-P

What difference does it make?  I think gas is too expensive, and I think books at Borders are too expensive.  I still buy it all now and then.

I don't really think of Linux as a competitor to Microsoft in the desktop market, and when you consider how much people pay for Macs, no, I don't think Windows is too pricey.  Sometimes I wonder about Office, but I really don't see a competitor in that field, either.

[iago]

Sometimes I wonder about Office, but I really don't see a competitor in that field, either.

I definitely agree with that. 

OpenOffice has a long way to go, but I think that they'll eventually be able to challenge Microsoft Office. 

Google might challenge Microsoft's office package too, some day, in some cases.  But that's a trickier problem, and I'd rather not get into it again

[deadly7]

and when you consider how much people pay for Macs, no, I don't think Windows is too pricey.

Yeah, but they're not buying JUST an OS.  They're buying a computer too.  Are you telling me that with Vista and a new computer, you wouldn't get around 1500-2000 dollars?

[Warrior]

and when you consider how much people pay for Macs, no, I don't think Windows is too pricey.

Yeah, but they're not buying JUST an OS.  They're buying a computer too.  Are you telling me that with Vista and a new computer, you wouldn't get around 1500-2000 dollars?

Of course, considering that Microsoft sells Windows to OEMs dirt cheap and you can probably buy a dell for less than $1k. I'm sorry but Apple is more evil than Microsoft. MS is an evil software producer, Apple produces software and hardware and limits their OS to run only on their hardware.

I wonder what the EU would do to Microsoft if they ever did something like that..

[deadly7]

Of course, considering that Microsoft sells Windows to OEMs dirt cheap and you can probably buy a dell for less than $1k. I'm sorry but Apple is more evil than Microsoft. MS is an evil software producer, Apple produces software and hardware and limits their OS to run only on their hardware.

I wonder what the EU would do to Microsoft if they ever did something like that..

Yeah, but the version they sell to OEMs is the shitty, extremely basic version.  Apple, as far as I know, releases only one version of their OS: the full package.  If Microsoft sold Vista Ultimate to OEMs you wouldn't be paying less than one grand.  Yeah, I don't like Apple for that reason.. but they're slowly joining the mainstream.

Microsoft doesn't make computers, so nothing, I'd venture.

[Warrior]

Of course, considering that Microsoft sells Windows to OEMs dirt cheap and you can probably buy a dell for less than $1k. I'm sorry but Apple is more evil than Microsoft. MS is an evil software producer, Apple produces software and hardware and limits their OS to run only on their hardware.

I wonder what the EU would do to Microsoft if they ever did something like that..

Yeah, but the version they sell to OEMs is the shitty, extremely basic version.

Not really, if it's "Shitty" then the OEMs make it shitty. Microsoft will sell Vista versions to OEM with the real deal (Wouldn't make sense otherwise as it would give the majority of their customers the wrong impression) along with a Vista version specifically made for those with small pockets. This however would of course include the upgradeable program to transfer to Ultimate at a later time.

Apple, as far as I know, releases only one version of their OS: the full package.  If Microsoft sold Vista Ultimate to OEMs you wouldn't be paying less than one grand.  Yeah, I don't like Apple for that reason.. but they're slowly joining the mainstream.

Microsoft wouldn't sell Ultimate to OEMs, it will be something like Home Basic and Home Premium with an Ultimate Update offer or something. It's clever marketing. Apple can do whatever they want but in the end, clever marketing defeats honesty and being a good little OS company.

[Warrior]

In other news: The sequel!

LOL "What is .NET anyway". What an idiot.

[MyndFyre]

Yeah, but the version they sell to OEMs is the shitty, extremely basic version.

What?

Every PC vendor I've ever seen sells all 3 versions of XP: Home, Pro, and Media Center.  They will sell every version of Vista.  I was licensed to sell OEM editions of operating systems.  I sold 3 computers with Windows ME: the OS that sells for $89 each, I got a 3-pack for $139.

[Joe]

Me too. Thanks.

I'm not mailing you a copy of Vista, nor am I sending you a Vista ISO when you're on dial-up. You lose.

Plus, you're supposed to be a Linux whore. Nelson breathes Windows; it's the least I can do.

I think you know my home computer situation. Windows is forced until Linux supports winmodems (note: get to work).

[deadly7]

Yeah, but the version they sell to OEMs is the shitty, extremely basic version.

What?

Every PC vendor I've ever seen sells all 3 versions of XP: Home, Pro, and Media Center.  They will sell every version of Vista.  I was licensed to sell OEM editions of operating systems.  I sold 3 computers with Windows ME: the OS that sells for $89 each, I got a 3-pack for $139.

Really?  Every OEM I've seen (excluding the one I picked out for my cousins) came with XP Home and had no choice for upgradeability.

[Sidoh]

Really?  Every OEM I've seen (excluding the one I picked out for my cousins) came with XP Home and had no choice for upgradeability.

Where the hell do you buy computers... India?  I've never seen a manufacturer that doesn't offer this option.

[deadly7]

Yes I buy my computers in India.  It costs like, five bucks there!

[iago]

Really?  Every OEM I've seen (excluding the one I picked out for my cousins) came with XP Home and had no choice for upgradeability.

Where the hell do you buy computers... India?  I've never seen a manufacturer that doesn't offer this option.

I've also never seen an OEM that's not Home, and I've never seen an OEM that doesn't have 100 stupid programs installed. 

[Warrior]

Really?  Every OEM I've seen (excluding the one I picked out for my cousins) came with XP Home and had no choice for upgradeability.

Where the hell do you buy computers... India?  I've never seen a manufacturer that doesn't offer this option.

I've also never seen an OEM that's not Home, and I've never seen an OEM that doesn't have 100 stupid programs installed. 

The program part is the OEM's fault, I just saw Dell selling a PC on TV with Pro installed.

[Chavo]

Really?  Every OEM I've seen (excluding the one I picked out for my cousins) came with XP Home and had no choice for upgradeability.

Where the hell do you buy computers... India?  I've never seen a manufacturer that doesn't offer this option.

I've also never seen an OEM that's not Home, and I've never seen an OEM that doesn't have 100 stupid programs installed. 

At work, I just received ~75 computers with Professional OEM on them...

Granted, I'm putting my image on those instead of using the OEM install, but thats mostly just for convenience and conformity

[Sidoh]

I've also never seen an OEM that's not Home, and I've never seen an OEM that doesn't have 100 stupid programs installed. 

Go on the internet and look at some of the computers.  I didn't come accross a company that didn't allow you to change the OS to/from Home, Professional or Media Center Edition.

At work, I just received ~75 computers with Professional OEM on them...

Granted, I'm putting my image on those instead of using the OEM install, but thats mostly just for convenience and conformity

Why'd your work place buy 75 computers with an OS on them?  I don't think I've seen a computer come in to my school that has an OS.  We always build them from scratch.

[Chavo]

Why'd your work place buy 75 computers with an OS on them?  I don't think I've seen a computer come in to my school that has an OS.  We always build them from scratch.

I work for the University I attend.  The university is forced to buy computers under state contracts because it is a state university.  Whoever made this particular contract with dell chose computers with the OS pre-installed on them.  It's not a big deal though and since they come with Dell's volume-license, we don't have to update our volume-license.

[Sidoh]

I work for the University I attend.  The university is forced to buy computers under state contracts because it is a state university.  Whoever made this particular contract with dell chose computers with the OS pre-installed on them.  It's not a big deal though and since they come with Dell's volume-license, we don't have to update our volume-license.

Haha, that's pretty dumb.  Especially in a situation where someone is managing a bunch of computers, they're going to want to build the OS from scratch so the network is more universal.  This summer, we've signed on a four-year lease for 106 computers from DakTech (that's a lot of a district this size/budget).  They don't have pre-installed OS'.  I don't even know if it was an option.

DakTech is awesome, by the way.  Seven year warranties are amazing.  We have a couple of dual 1.0GHz servers.  One of them had a disk in the RAID that was going bad.  I called them, explained the situation and two days later, there was a new drive in our mailbox.

[Newby]

DakTech eh? I'll have to check them out...

Anyway, I've used OEM copies (my dad had an OEM copy of every M$ OS up to 2K3 Enterprise at one point) and I can safely tell you they have OEM copies of WinXP Pro. Whoever said they didn't needs to die.

[deadly7]

DakTech eh? I'll have to check them out...

Anyway, I've used OEM copies (my dad had an OEM copy of every M$ OS up to 2K3 Enterprise at one point) and I can safely tell you they have OEM copies of WinXP Pro. Whoever said they didn't needs to die.

I never said they didn't.  I said I haven't seen them.

[Sidoh]

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=E1705RFC1&s=dhs

[Chavo]

Haha, that's pretty dumb.  Especially in a situation where someone is managing a bunch of computers, they're going to want to build the OS from scratch so the network is more universal.  This summer, we've signed on a four-year lease for 106 computers from DakTech (that's a lot of a district this size/budget).  They don't have pre-installed OS'.  I don't even know if it was an option.

DakTech is awesome, by the way.  Seven year warranties are amazing.  We have a couple of dual 1.0GHz servers.  One of them had a disk in the RAID that was going bad.  I called them, explained the situation and two days later, there was a new drive in our mailbox.

The contracts normally have to be approved by my boss so that they fit our needs, but this latest batch was more of a spending some money to use up our budget at the end of the fiscal year thing and apparently the department heads were allowed to pick and choose what computers they wanted (inside the contract) rather than letting my boss choose ones that match our existing types :/  Needless to say we were not pleased.

I'll have to look at DakTech, my boss thinks pretty highly of my opinion, so I bet we could get our hands on a couple.

[deadly7]

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=E1705RFC1&s=dhs

Yeah, they allow for it online.  But I've never seen anything different in stores.  I hope you realize that's what I was talking about.

[Sidoh]

The contracts normally have to be approved by my boss so that they fit our needs, but this latest batch was more of a spending some money to use up our budget at the end of the fiscal year thing and apparently the department heads were allowed to pick and choose what computers they wanted (inside the contract) rather than letting my boss choose ones that match our existing types :/  Needless to say we were not pleased.

I'll have to look at DakTech, my boss thinks pretty highly of my opinion, so I bet we could get our hands on a couple.

One of their sales reps (not sure how many they have.  We've had the same 4-6 techs in all the calls we've made there) is really awesome. Stu or something like that, I believe his name is.

Yeah, they allow for it online.  But I've never seen anything different in stores.  I hope you realize that's what I was talking about.

I hope you realize most people order their computers online!

[deadly7]

I hope you realize most people order their computers online!

Liar.

[Sidoh]

Liar.

Haha, seriously.  Even the lady that called me to "fix her printer because it was printing in black and white" ordered hers online. -_-

[iago]

I don't order anything online unless I absolutely have to.  But that varies person to person, I imagine. 

[Sidoh]

I don't order anything online unless I absolutely have to.  But that varies person to person, I imagine. 

Why not? :/

[Chavo]

I don't order anything online unless I absolutely have to.  But that varies person to person, I imagine. 

If you are buying something you know nothing about, it is good to get an opinion from someone that knows what they are talking about, but I can't agree with spending more in a store just to get exactly the same thing when you know precisely what you want.

[Joe]

I don't order anything online unless I absolutely have to.  But that varies person to person, I imagine. 

Why not? :/

Judging by his personality, I'd say he doesn't want his credit card number to get taken.

[Sidoh]

Judging by his personality, I'd say he doesn't want his credit card number to get taken.

If you're smart, even if it does get taken, you don't lose money.

[iago]

If it gets taken, somebody still loses money.  Whether or not it's my money doesn't matter. 

But no, I like the hands-on feel of stores.  I don't buy a monitor until I test it, I don't buy a hammer until I swing it, I don't buy a book till I've flipped through it and maybe read a page or two (in the middle), etc.  When you buy something online, you don't necessarily get what you want. 

I have bought my share of things off eBay, though.  Mostly books, NES games, movies, and other stuff that I can't possibly buy here.  But I don't like doing it, I greatly prefer being able to hold what I'm going to buy. 

Also, I like supporting local companies, where possible.  But that's not a rule, I still buy a lot at Wal-Mart and Chapters.  But that's not my main reason, just a side reason. 

[Joe]

Judging by his personality, I'd say he doesn't want his credit card number to get taken.

If you're smart, even if it does get taken, you don't lose money.

I can't argue with that, but I can say it'll be hell for a while, though. My grandpa got his credit card taken once.

If it gets taken, somebody still loses money.  Whether or not it's my money doesn't matter. 

But no, I like the hands-on feel of stores.  I don't buy a monitor until I test it, I don't buy a hammer until I swing it, I don't buy a book till I've flipped through it and maybe read a page or two (in the middle), etc.  When you buy something online, you don't necessarily get what you want. 

I have bought my share of things off eBay, though.  Mostly books, NES games, movies, and other stuff that I can't possibly buy here.  But I don't like doing it, I greatly prefer being able to hold what I'm going to buy. 

Also, I like supporting local companies, where possible.  But that's not a rule, I still buy a lot at Wal-Mart and Chapters.  But that's not my main reason, just a side reason. 

Those are good reasons, but for the same reason (the "I know what this thing does / is exactly" reason), I'd rather buy things online. Of course, I'm biased, because the first thing I'll do with my paychecks is pay back small debts to various people, and then buy computer parts (and eventually an entire new computer) and you can't exactly do that locally.

[iago]

Those are good reasons, but for the same reason (the "I know what this thing does / is exactly" reason), I'd rather buy things online. Of course, I'm biased, because the first thing I'll do with my paychecks is pay back small debts to various people, and then buy computer parts (and eventually an entire new computer) and you can't exactly do that locally.

That's not exactly my reason.. my reason is that I like to see and touch and feel it before I buy it.

And I don't see why people can't do that locally.  I mean, maybe you can't where you live, but you make it sound like nobody can.  I've personally bought all my computer parts locally, and I like doing that. 

[Sidoh]

If it gets taken, somebody still loses money.  Whether or not it's my money doesn't matter. 

But no, I like the hands-on feel of stores.  I don't buy a monitor until I test it, I don't buy a hammer until I swing it, I don't buy a book till I've flipped through it and maybe read a page or two (in the middle), etc.  When you buy something online, you don't necessarily get what you want. 

I have bought my share of things off eBay, though.  Mostly books, NES games, movies, and other stuff that I can't possibly buy here.  But I don't like doing it, I greatly prefer being able to hold what I'm going to buy. 

Also, I like supporting local companies, where possible.  But that's not a rule, I still buy a lot at Wal-Mart and Chapters.  But that's not my main reason, just a side reason. 

Who loses money if a person takes your credit card number online?  The credit card company?  I can guarentee that even if those charges went against them that they wouldn't know the difference.

I suppose that's a good thing, but I personally like the options you have online.  You have more choices in the category you're shopping in, you can search and read reviews and learn of good and bad experiences people have had with the product in reference.  I understand your point, though.  I don't think I'd ever buy something like a car online.  However, almost everything I do buy is online.  That has a lot to do with me living in a very small town that has no stores selling anything of my interest.

[iago]

Who loses money if a person takes your credit card number online?  The credit card company?  I can guarentee that even if those charges went against them that they wouldn't know the difference.

I suppose that's a good thing, but I personally like the options you have online.  You have more choices in the category you're shopping in, you can search and read reviews and learn of good and bad experiences people have had with the product in reference.  I understand your point, though.  I don't think I'd ever buy something like a car online.  However, almost everything I do buy is online.  That has a lot to do with me living in a very small town that has no stores selling anything of my interest.

Yeah, reading opinions can be useful too.  But I have different (and often very unique) opinions on what's important.  I don't trust other people's opinions.  But that's just me, it's a personal thing, like I sai. 

And yeah, I live in a decently sized city (somewhere around 650,000 people), so I have access to pretty much anything I need (other than Necromunda models).