Waterboarding

[zorm]

It all depends how you define torture. To me torture is doing actual physical harm to said captive or people with relations to said captive. This is just a more extreme example of the methods they use. They are also known to make prisoners stand/kneel/whatever for 'excessive' lengths of time.

[CrAz3D]

Bottom line: Torture isn't a method we should be using to extract information. It's defined as a cruel and unusual punishment in the United States Constitution.

yeah...but there are exceptions to every rule ... at least so far there have been

Oh so there is an exception to denying the rights guaranteed by the constitution so long as you are tried under the united states courts? Nice. It's great to see that the US government is willing to deny the rights it promised to people and resort to the torture and tyranny seen in Britain.

So far, there is an exception to basically every rule in the book.

Murder is ok in some case, its fine to limit speech sometimes, I can't take a gun into a school...there are exceptions to rules.

[Newby]

And I disagree, if I was afraid for my life and they asked me if xxx was a terrorist, I'd say yes just to make them stop.  If they asked me to name all the terrorists I know, and I only knew 1 or 2, then I'd start naming everybody I could, just to stop them from torturing me. 

My instinct would be to name names as fast as I could, without regard to whether or not it's true and not waste time trying to remember the names of every terrorist.

Keep in mind that all it takes is a SINGLE mistake made by somebody being tortured (and I think we can agree that they're under some duress), and suddenly innocent people are being forced to name names that they probably don't even know.

It's like I'm reading The Crucible all over again!

(For those who haven't read it, I suggest you read it. It's not bad and basically describes the above situation perfectly.)

[leet_muffin]

Bottom line: Torture isn't a method we should be using to extract information. It's defined as a cruel and unusual punishment in the United States Constitution.

I assume we are discussing people in foreign nations from iago saying that it always seems better to be the country doing the torturing. And if they are foreign, then they have no rights under the US constitution.

I dont really have a say on the issue, in that I feel it is all about individual cases. And it mostly boils down to morals, something which we cant agree upon.

[iago]

Bottom line: Torture isn't a method we should be using to extract information. It's defined as a cruel and unusual punishment in the United States Constitution.

I assume we are discussing people in foreign nations from iago saying that it always seems better to be the country doing the torturing. And if they are foreign, then they have no rights under the US constitution.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't your constitution practically start with, "...all men are created equal...", and not "...all Americans are created equal..."?

[Sidoh]

To do little more than reiterate: this is a totally unconstitutional course of action.  I definitely think that it should be outlawed; it's a disgrace to the American constitution.

While it probably doesn't leave a residual effect like other types of torture (inflictions of pain in cruel ways, etc), it's definitely still torture.

[leet_muffin]

Bottom line: Torture isn't a method we should be using to extract information. It's defined as a cruel and unusual punishment in the United States Constitution.

I assume we are discussing people in foreign nations from iago saying that it always seems better to be the country doing the torturing. And if they are foreign, then they have no rights under the US constitution.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't your constitution practically start with, "...all men are created equal...", and not "...all Americans are created equal..."?

Yes, it does. Our constitution is also quite contradicting at times. This is a perfect example. Foreigners dont have any protection under the constitution. (It comes in particularily handy when dealing with illegal Mexicans.) Another example is black people being unprotected for several years, and they were American citizens.

[CrAz3D]

yeah, thats true...the Constitution basically means whatever we say it means...yay for living documents

[Sidoh]

It all depends how you define torture. To me torture is doing actual physical harm to said captive or people with relations to said captive. This is just a more extreme example of the methods they use. They are also known to make prisoners stand/kneel/whatever for 'excessive' lengths of time.

You should probably update how you define torture, then.

wikipedia:

Torture is any act by which severe pain, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation, deterrence, revenge, punishment, or information gathering. It can be used as an interrogation tactic to extract confessions. Torture is also used as a method of coercion or as a tool to control groups seen as a threat by governments. Throughout history, it has often been used as a method of effecting religious conversion or political "re-education".

m-w.com:

1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain

Yes, it does. Our constitution is also quite contradicting at times. This is a perfect example. Foreigners dont have any protection under the constitution. (It comes in particularily handy when dealing with illegal Mexicans.) Another example is black people being unprotected for several years, and they were American citizens.

So all people are created equal, but only if they're Americans?  That's fucking stupid.  Your statements quickly remind me of Animal Farm:

All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.

yeah, thats true...the Constitution basically means whatever we say it means...yay for living documents

Yeah, let's just throw white paint next to the statements that give us our "rights."

It's easy to not care about retracting rights from non-Americans, but I highly suspect you'll be whining more when they keep on chewing away on the rights for Americans.

[leet_muffin]

Yes, it does. Our constitution is also quite contradicting at times. This is a perfect example. Foreigners dont have any protection under the constitution. (It comes in particularily handy when dealing with illegal Mexicans.) Another example is black people being unprotected for several years, and they were American citizens.

So all people are created equal, but only if they're Americans?  That's fucking stupid.  Your statements quickly remind me of Animal Farm:

All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.

Christ on a stick, calm down. Its not my constitution, there would be some big changes. I support some basic rights for foreigners, I was just stating that the constitution does not protect them.

[Warrior]

I believe everyone, even foreigners should have the same fundemental set of rights that we do (Right to fair trial, etc..) but obviously you can't give them all american rights (Right to overthrow an oppresive government, right to bear arms, etc..).

[dark_drake]

Yes, it does. Our constitution is also quite contradicting at times. This is a perfect example. Foreigners dont have any protection under the constitution. (It comes in particularily handy when dealing with illegal Mexicans.)

IIRC, illegal immigrants are guaranteed certain rights.  Due process, right to remain silent, and free from unreasonable searches and seizures are the ones I remember.

[Newby]

IIRC, illegal immigrants are guaranteed certain rights.  Due process, right to remain silent, and free from unreasonable searches and seizures are the ones I remember.

They're guaranteed this right: The one the border patrol van takes to dump their foreign asses over the motherfucking border.

They need to learn to get in line. Lots of people immigrating here do. Why the fuck can't they?

[iago]

They're guaranteed this right: The one the border patrol van takes to dump their foreign asses over the motherfucking border.

They need to learn to get in line. Lots of people immigrating here do. Why the fuck can't they?

You seem to make a very dangerous mistake that many people do: you don't seem to remember that foreigners are human beings who have thoughts, feelings, fears, and hopes.  You shouldn't treat somebody like garbage, just because they weren't lucky enough to be born in a good country.