Author Topic: External RAID Array?  (Read 5195 times)

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Offline zorm

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External RAID Array?
« on: August 06, 2006, 10:12:25 pm »
So I was considering building myself an external raid array. The main use for this would probably be long term storage of pictures+video, so it will need to be large and able to recover incase of drive failure. Does anyone already have one of these? Does anyone have suggestions? The other thing that I have been considering is spending more $ and going for SCSI drives but I doubt I'll notice the performance increase so the only question is if they will last considerable longer than comparable SATA/IDE drives?
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Offline Newby

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Re: External RAID Array?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2006, 10:38:22 pm »
Suggestion: RAID 5 with 750GB SATA drives. It'll be expensive, but 750gb is plenty of storage, and if a drive goes bad you can replace it / get another one under warranty.

(note: I know nothing about RAID. But from what I've read, RAID 5 is nice.)
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Quote
[17:32:45] * xar sets mode: -oooooooooo algorithm ban chris cipher newby stdio TehUser tnarongi|away vursed warz
[17:32:54] * xar sets mode: +o newby
[17:32:58] <xar> new rule
[17:33:02] <xar> me and newby rule all

I'd bet that you're currently bloated like a water ballon on a hot summer's day.

That analogy doesn't even make sense.  Why would a water balloon be especially bloated on a hot summer's day? For your sake, I hope there wasn't too much logic testing on your LSAT. 

Offline Sidoh

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Re: External RAID Array?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2006, 10:20:13 pm »
The idea of RAID is to use several smaller drives.  I don't think it's a good idea to use some of the biggest drives you can get for RAID because they're expensive to replace.  I would recommend something smaller, like 200 GB or even smaller than that.

We have an external SCSI RAID tower at work that's about 6 years old.  I'm not aware of any of the drives going bad, but I think we've had a PSU and a fan go bad in it.  It runs RAID 5.

Offline Newby

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Re: External RAID Array?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2006, 10:46:38 pm »
If the drives come with a warranty, that'll save you some money for the first year or so that the warranty is good for.

What I would have done was picked up 4 of these Seagate 320GB SATA hard-drives for $95 each and built a RAID 5 configuration out of them. But it's a one day sale so by the time you read this it won't be $95. I should have ordered 2 of them today. :(

Oh shit. A five year warranty. Goddamn!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2006, 10:48:33 pm by Newby »
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Quote
[17:32:45] * xar sets mode: -oooooooooo algorithm ban chris cipher newby stdio TehUser tnarongi|away vursed warz
[17:32:54] * xar sets mode: +o newby
[17:32:58] <xar> new rule
[17:33:02] <xar> me and newby rule all

I'd bet that you're currently bloated like a water ballon on a hot summer's day.

That analogy doesn't even make sense.  Why would a water balloon be especially bloated on a hot summer's day? For your sake, I hope there wasn't too much logic testing on your LSAT. 

Offline Sidoh

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Re: External RAID Array?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2006, 10:52:02 pm »
If the drives come with a warranty, that'll save you some money for the first year or so that the warranty is good for.

yeah, but that's true of other drives too.  I think I'd rather side with a few more cheaper drives.

Offline Newby

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Re: External RAID Array?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2006, 11:01:06 pm »
The question that begs is: does he care if he loses all his data if a drive faults (more space cheaper), or does he want it backed up (less space, unless you dump $$ into it) safely?
- Newby
http://www.x86labs.org

Quote
[17:32:45] * xar sets mode: -oooooooooo algorithm ban chris cipher newby stdio TehUser tnarongi|away vursed warz
[17:32:54] * xar sets mode: +o newby
[17:32:58] <xar> new rule
[17:33:02] <xar> me and newby rule all

I'd bet that you're currently bloated like a water ballon on a hot summer's day.

That analogy doesn't even make sense.  Why would a water balloon be especially bloated on a hot summer's day? For your sake, I hope there wasn't too much logic testing on your LSAT. 

Offline Sidoh

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Re: External RAID Array?
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2006, 02:15:11 am »
The question that begs is: does he care if he loses all his data if a drive faults (more space cheaper), or does he want it backed up (less space, unless you dump $ into it) safely?

Uhhh... what?  I'm not sure what you're talking about, because it doesn't make any sense regarding this specific topic.

Assuming that you use a RAID 5 configuration in each said situation, data integrity wouldn't have a noticable improvement with either decision, unless one set of drives is known for its survivability, but that's not much of a fair assumption.

With RAID 5, the capacity of the member disks doesn't add or remove from the integrety of the array as a whole.  You can compose the entire array of 10 GB disks... it doesn't matter.  If a single drive in the array fails, it will rebuild itself.  If more than one fails before the rebuild is complete, you lose data.  The types of disks used in this type of configuration doesn't make any difference.

Like I already said, the idea of RAID is to create a single storage space made up of several smaller constituents, theoretically reducing the chance of failure (in this specific case.  some configurations, like RAID 0, are intended to increase performance while actually significantly decreasing data integrety.  others, like RAID 1, are for backup purposes -- the entire drive is mirrored) and usually increasing performance as well.

Oh, and zorm: what type of space are you talking about?  I can see where a RAID storage device becomes useful (and even necessary) when data on it is constantly being accessed (like on a server), but unless this is the case, I don't see much of an advantage unless you just need a huge drive to store things on, IE 1 TB+.  Also, have you looked into things like NAS units?

Grr... I've edited this post like 5 times.  I keep forgetting things.  If you do end up going this route, I wouldn't recommend SCSI.  With SATA 3.0 GB/s out, I'm not even sure SCSI has a speed advantage.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2006, 02:21:41 am by Sidoh »

Offline zorm

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Re: External RAID Array?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2006, 02:31:01 am »
The question that begs is: does he care if he loses all his data if a drive faults (more space cheaper), or does he want it backed up (less space, unless you dump $$ into it) safely?

I want it backed up, I'm not expecting my collection of things I want stored on it to grow super huge, I'd be very surprised if it grew past 1TB. However, it would be nice to have it all backed up. This is actually something I have put much thought into the best way to do this and one of the main reasons for making a RAID. The problem and the thing I am very concerned about is multiple disk failures occuring at/around the same time. I seem to come across a fair number of stories where events like this have happened.

For that reason I have considered other backup methods but none of them appear all that promising. A tape drive will set you back around $300 and then the media for that is even more expensive. DVDs are probably the best option but how long they will last is still in question as well as the fact that at 4.7GB it would take a lot of them to backup a 1TB collection for example(somewhere over 200 I believe). So that doesn't bold really well and if you have to store that many you lose the advantage of being able to store a copy offsite with ease. The only good thing about this would be the media would only set you back someplace in the $60-70 range so thats not horribly bad. But again the numbers are killer since it will take a lot of tedious time when say Bluray or HD-DVD comes around to migrate a collection over to those.

Right now my photo collection stands at about 30GB or so. So its not incredibly huge or such. But the main reason for this #1 is I haven't been taking as many pictures as I could and #2 I have been learning so I didn't do things correctly for the first 20GB or so of pictures. #3 I actually edit only a small amount now because the Tiff files are rather large, 50MB Tiff file while the raw is 7MB and I want to save both the Tiff and raw file. I'm also considering adding a (HD)video camera to my collection so that will need even more space. Basically I can see the need for lots of space and a way to ensure that I am able to keep it backed up for a long time to come.
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Offline Sidoh

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Re: External RAID Array?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2006, 11:09:11 am »
If write performance is an issue, I'd just get a huge SATA drive (700 GB or so), personally.  A RAID tower just presents another possible point of failure. :\

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: External RAID Array?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2006, 12:05:36 pm »
Newby, why four drives, and why 750gb or 320gb?

RAID is Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks.  I know with RAID 5 you only need 3 drives, and if you use a three-drive configuration you can have the combined storage capacity of two of them provided they're all the same size.  The way it works is that corresponding bytes on the two *in-use* drives have parallel or simply different data, and the third drive is a parity stripe which has data from the first two drives XORed.  That way, the data can be easily reconstructed.
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Offline Sidoh

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Re: External RAID Array?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2006, 12:53:52 pm »
Newby, why four drives, and why 750gb or 320gb?

RAID is Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks.  I know with RAID 5 you only need 3 drives, and if you use a three-drive configuration you can have the combined storage capacity of two of them provided they're all the same size.  The way it works is that corresponding bytes on the two *in-use* drives have parallel or simply different data, and the third drive is a parity stripe which has data from the first two drives XORed.  That way, the data can be easily reconstructed.

That's exactly what I was explaining earlier in this thread. :(

Offline Newby

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Re: External RAID Array?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2006, 01:11:35 pm »
Well you didn't explain it very well. I understand MyndFyre now; though, I thought it was 4 drives in RAID 5.
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Quote
[17:32:45] * xar sets mode: -oooooooooo algorithm ban chris cipher newby stdio TehUser tnarongi|away vursed warz
[17:32:54] * xar sets mode: +o newby
[17:32:58] <xar> new rule
[17:33:02] <xar> me and newby rule all

I'd bet that you're currently bloated like a water ballon on a hot summer's day.

That analogy doesn't even make sense.  Why would a water balloon be especially bloated on a hot summer's day? For your sake, I hope there wasn't too much logic testing on your LSAT. 

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: External RAID Array?
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2006, 01:16:58 pm »
Well you didn't explain it very well. I understand MyndFyre now; though, I thought it was 4 drives in RAID 5.
From what I understand, you can have any number of drives in RAID 5, but the minimum is 3.
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Offline Sidoh

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Re: External RAID Array?
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2006, 01:23:17 pm »
Well you didn't explain it very well. I understand MyndFyre now; though, I thought it was 4 drives in RAID 5.

Um... yeah I did.  You either didn't read it or only read part of it:

The idea of RAID is to use several smaller drives.  I don't think it's a good idea to use some of the biggest drives you can get for RAID because they're expensive to replace.  I would recommend something smaller, like 200 GB or even smaller than that.

We have an external SCSI RAID tower at work that's about 6 years old.  I'm not aware of any of the drives going bad, but I think we've had a PSU and a fan go bad in it.  It runs RAID 5.

From what I understand, you can have any number of drives in RAID 5, but the minimum is 3.

Yes.  Theoretically, the 'concept' of RAID 5 supports an unlimited number of drives (with a minimum of 3), but the hardware that supports RAID generally limits it to anywhere from 3 and up drives.  The biggest RAID units I've seen support around 15 drives, but I'm sure there are bigger.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 01:29:12 pm by Sidoh »

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: External RAID Array?
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2006, 02:28:46 pm »
I've seen a RAID-5 with 40 drives.  :o

I'm going to make a RAID-5 array of jump drives.
I have a programming folder, and I have nothing of value there

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Our species really annoys me.