Author Topic: Our fine school system continues to destroy America  (Read 10087 times)

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Offline CrAz3D

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Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« on: August 09, 2006, 05:41:33 pm »
http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/08/08/parenting.protecting.ap/index.html

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The idea that protecting kids from rejection is crucial to safeguarding their self-esteem has gained momentum in recent years.
uhm...what about highschool?...or online forums more importantly!

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Or sports: In many towns, scorekeeping no longer happens at soccer or softball games played by kids under 8 or 9. Win or lose, every player in the league gets a trophy at the season's end.
THIS is why America is failing...no competition...no ambition.  If we don't work to be better than the rest we're going backwards in society.  And if our schools are teaching us that being the best doesn't matter, well, they're destroying America!

Offline rabbit

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2006, 05:44:39 pm »
I think score is no longer kept so fucked up parents don't go postal when their 7 year old's t-ball team loses.

Offline Eric

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2006, 05:48:24 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the purpose of school to learn, not to discuss party arrangements?

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2006, 05:53:01 pm »
School is to learn, yes.

How do you learn real social interaction when its all fake, though?

Offline Newby

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2006, 06:47:50 pm »
It's fucking life. If they can't deal with that shit now, they won't be able to deal with it when it comes to real life, where they DO discuss shit like that.
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I'd bet that you're currently bloated like a water ballon on a hot summer's day.

That analogy doesn't even make sense.  Why would a water balloon be especially bloated on a hot summer's day? For your sake, I hope there wasn't too much logic testing on your LSAT. 

Offline Rule

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2006, 07:01:25 pm »
Why are you complaining about things changing when you can't figure out a percentage from a fraction? :(

Offline dark_drake

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2006, 07:20:55 pm »
I never realized that by not inviting Sidoh to my 2nd grade party I severely damaged his self-esteem. :(
errr... something like that...

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2006, 07:21:43 pm »
I never realized that by not inviting Sidoh to my 2nd grade party I severely damaged his self-esteem. :(

YOU BASTARD! YOU SAID YOU WEREN'T HAVING ONE.  I DIDN'T INVITE YOU BACK, THOUGH!  Take that, fiend! :(

Why are you complaining about things changing when you can't figure out a percentage from a fraction? :(

Hahahaha.  QFT.

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2006, 07:23:39 pm »
Why are you complaining about things changing when you can't figure out a percentage from a fraction? :(

1) I was off by one...tenth namy thing
2) I haven't done stuff like that in like 7-8 years...its not like I called it 1purplth of a percent
3) Maybe it proves my point that our school system is destroying America

Offline Eric

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2006, 09:43:54 pm »
How do you learn real social interaction when its all fake, though?

How can social interaction be "fake?"

This extends to both sides of the argument, but if social development is of such a great concern in the context of formal education, why are there no elementary-level classes on the subject?

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2006, 11:39:44 pm »
If the social interaction is regulated and forced, then it is not genuine.

Offline Eric

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2006, 12:55:28 am »
If the social interaction is regulated and forced, then it is not genuine.

Of course it's not genuine or sincere if it's forced, but who ever said sincerity was required for social interaction?  Come to think of it, who said that it would be forced interaction?  The invitations can always be easily given at a more appropriate time: after school.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 12:57:47 am by Lord[nK] »

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2006, 12:57:49 am »
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if anyone is excluded the invitations can't be handed out at school.
They can't be handed out at school period...

Offline Eric

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2006, 12:59:19 am »
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if anyone is excluded the invitations can't be handed out at school.
They can't be handed out at school period...

I wasn't implying that they be handed out at school.

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2006, 01:07:48 am »
Oh,k.  But don't you think its alot more convenient to do it at school?
I mean teachers pass out notes to kids to take home during school...shouldnt the other kids feel left out when they dont get notes to take home?

Offline rabbit

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2006, 01:54:49 am »
Nobody likes getting notes from their teachers.  It's either a) bad news or b) creepy.

Offline Armin

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2006, 04:41:18 am »
Fucking commies, messing up our school system. "Let's make everyone succeed no matter how much they don't deserve it!" Next we'll see the teachers giving A's to everyone. Sucess is nothing without failure.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 04:43:11 am by MetaL MilitiA »
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Offline Rule

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2006, 04:46:23 am »
Sucess[sik] is nothing without failure.

Not true as a general statement.

Offline Armin

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2006, 04:50:21 am »
I think it'd help if you gave instances where it's not true, instead of leaving us with an ambiguous statement. Also, thank you for that [sik]. Somebody might have thought that you made the spelling error, even though in big bold letters it says "Quote from: MetaL MilitiA".
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Offline Eric

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2006, 07:25:06 am »
I think it'd help if you gave instances where it's not true, instead of leaving us with an ambiguous statement. Also, thank you for that [sik]. Somebody might have thought that you made the spelling error, even though in big bold letters it says "Quote from: MetaL MilitiA".

Ironically, it's sic, not sik.

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2006, 08:09:34 pm »
If the social interaction is regulated and forced, then it is not genuine.

Of course it's not genuine or sincere if it's forced, but who ever said sincerity was required for social interaction?  Come to think of it, who said that it would be forced interaction?  The invitations can always be easily given at a more appropriate time: after school.
Have you ever studied a foreign language in class?

I took five years of Spanish between high school and college.  In high school it wasn't quite as in-depth, but in college, they only let you speak Spanish once you're into conversational Spanish classes.

I always hated when we were given role-plays to do.  Or, "Habla de las ropas en la tienda" (Talk about the clothes in the store").  What the fuck do I care about clothes in a store?  Do you know what my shopping consists of?  I go in, find the pair of shorts or a T-shirt that I like, make sure I find one that will fit, pay, and leave.  It takes me about 3 minutes per item.  I don't need to talk to anyone about it in English *or* in Spanish.

That's a "forced" social interaction.  In my mind it never helped me learn Spanish any better because I didn't know what I was supposed to say in English, let alone in Spanish.  "Esta camiseta es azúl."  Whoopdie fucking doo, the shirt is blue. 

Once I got into conversational Spanish classes, *that* was what really helped me.  Being able to talk about what I was going to be doing over the weekend, how my classes were going, things that actually were relevant to my life, I became pretty close to fluent in under a year.  Now, two years later, I could still carry on a conversation, albeit slowly.  I'm convinced I could achieve fluency in about a month of total immersion.  I can't say the same for the year before conversational Spanish.

The point being, when we force social interactions, we're not equipping children to deal with the real world.
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Offline Newby

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2006, 08:11:20 pm »
We are forced to do social interaction in my spanish classes. "Talk about what you will do for the weekend. 20 lines minimum, 10 per person."

I can summarize in one line: "play videogames and sleep."

That's freaking it.
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I'd bet that you're currently bloated like a water ballon on a hot summer's day.

That analogy doesn't even make sense.  Why would a water balloon be especially bloated on a hot summer's day? For your sake, I hope there wasn't too much logic testing on your LSAT. 

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2006, 09:12:42 pm »
We are forced to do social interaction in my spanish classes. "Talk about what you will do for the weekend. 20 lines minimum, 10 per person."

I can summarize in one line: "play videogames and sleep."

That's freaking it.
You can be forced to interract, but those are still real things you say...but when you force kids to invite everyone to their party, it just doesnt work the same way

Offline Newby

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2006, 09:43:47 pm »
Those may be real things, but it's overkill and it is not something that I talk about every day. Sure, you could talk about shopping at the store (see MyndFyre's post, which mine feels the same way about), but it is not a normal conversation.

Nobody likes getting notes from their teachers.  It's either a) bad news or b) creepy.

My friend Mike got a note from his teacher at the end of the year. Went something like, "Dear Mike: It was a rough year but we got through it. Have fun in your new home with your new puppy. Keep James K. (that's me) away from me next year." eh?
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[17:32:45] * xar sets mode: -oooooooooo algorithm ban chris cipher newby stdio TehUser tnarongi|away vursed warz
[17:32:54] * xar sets mode: +o newby
[17:32:58] <xar> new rule
[17:33:02] <xar> me and newby rule all

I'd bet that you're currently bloated like a water ballon on a hot summer's day.

That analogy doesn't even make sense.  Why would a water balloon be especially bloated on a hot summer's day? For your sake, I hope there wasn't too much logic testing on your LSAT. 

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2006, 10:51:05 pm »
Those may be real things, but it's overkill and it is not something that I talk about every day. Sure, you could talk about shopping at the store [...] but it is not a normal conversation.
That's exactly my point.  :)  You hate doing it because it's not natural, and so you push away whatever you're doing.
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Offline dark_drake

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2006, 11:05:57 pm »
You can be forced to interract, but those are still real things you say...but when you force kids to invite everyone to their party, it just doesnt work the same way
You might hate inviting all those kids to your party, but what if you didn't have to? Think of the feelings of the kid(s) you left out.  :P
errr... something like that...

Offline Rule

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2006, 04:24:49 am »
I think it'd help if you gave instances where it's not true, instead of leaving us with an ambiguous statement. Also, thank you for that [sik]. Somebody might have thought that you made the spelling error, even though in big bold letters it says "Quote from: MetaL MilitiA".

I think it'd help if you didn't post ready made platitudes.   I don't like having to exemplify something that should be simple enough that you can think about it on your own (granted, it has to be pretty simple in your case).  Anyways, here's an example.  Success can be defined as the completion of a task.  If someone does not attempt the task, does he automatically fail it?  I don't think so.  And the success of completing this particular task may be commendable.

Is complex analysis (imaginary numbers) not an important success?  Had anyone failed at introducing complex analysis?
What about calculus?  What about algebra?  This list isn't exhaustive.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 04:34:33 am by Rule »

Offline Armin

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2006, 05:27:59 am »
I think it'd help if you gave instances where it's not true, instead of leaving us with an ambiguous statement. Also, thank you for that [sik]. Somebody might have thought that you made the spelling error, even though in big bold letters it says "Quote from: MetaL MilitiA".
I think it'd help if you didn't post ready made platitudes.   I don't like having to exemplify something that should be simple enough that you can think about it on your own (granted, it has to be pretty simple in your case).  Anyways, here's an example.  Success can be defined as the completion of a task.  If someone does not attempt the task, does he automatically fail it?  I don't think so.  And the success of completing this particular task may be commendable.

Is complex analysis (imaginary numbers) not an important success?  Had anyone failed at introducing complex analysis?
What about calculus?  What about algebra?  This list isn't exhaustive.
No matter how commonly used that phrase is, it fits perfectly into this discussion.

If somebody does not attempt the task, he obviously neither succeeds or fails. If somebody does attempt it, yet doesn't complete it, that's considered failing. Anything you can succeed in, you can fail in, even if it's as trivial as pressing a big red button. The larger the margin for failure, and the smaller the margin for success, success tastes much sweeter.

Introducing complex analysis, is the outcome of intense thought, of somebody attempting to find an answer to an equation. I can assure you that many, many people in the past have attempted to solve the equations that held negative square roots of numbers, yet failed. If complex analysis was complete common sense, and just about anyone that would think about solving an equation that matches the above parameters could succeed in it without any prior knowledge of complex analysis, than it wouldn't be much of a success, as the margin for failure would be little, and the margin for success would be large.
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Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2006, 12:49:42 pm »
You can be forced to interract, but those are still real things you say...but when you force kids to invite everyone to their party, it just doesnt work the same way
You might hate inviting all those kids to your party, but what if you didn't have to? Think of the feelings of the kid(s) you left out.  :P
but thats not how the real world functions...people dont do things because others might feel bad

Offline deadly7

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2006, 12:54:54 pm »
You might hate inviting all those kids to your party, but what if you didn't have to? Think of the feelings of the kid(s) you left out.  :P
Is there something you want to tell us about your childhood, Mike?
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Offline Rule

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2006, 01:40:06 pm »
I think it'd help if you gave instances where it's not true, instead of leaving us with an ambiguous statement. Also, thank you for that [sik]. Somebody might have thought that you made the spelling error, even though in big bold letters it says "Quote from: MetaL MilitiA".
I think it'd help if you didn't post ready made platitudes.   I don't like having to exemplify something that should be simple enough that you can think about it on your own (granted, it has to be pretty simple in your case).  Anyways, here's an example.  Success can be defined as the completion of a task.  If someone does not attempt the task, does he automatically fail it?  I don't think so.  And the success of completing this particular task may be commendable.

Is complex analysis (imaginary numbers) not an important success?  Had anyone failed at introducing complex analysis?
What about calculus?  What about algebra?  This list isn't exhaustive.
No matter how commonly used that phrase is, it fits perfectly into this discussion.

If somebody does not attempt the task, he obviously neither succeeds or fails. If somebody does attempt it, yet doesn't complete it, that's considered failing. Anything you can succeed in, you can fail in, even if it's as trivial as pressing a big red button. The larger the margin for failure, and the smaller the margin for success, success tastes much sweeter.

Introducing complex analysis, is the outcome of intense thought, of somebody attempting to find an answer to an equation. I can assure you that many, many people in the past have attempted to solve the equations that held negative square roots of numbers, yet failed. If complex analysis was complete common sense, and just about anyone that would think about solving an equation that matches the above parameters could succeed in it without any prior knowledge of complex analysis, than it wouldn't be much of a success, as the margin for failure would be little, and the margin for success would be large.

As you and I both said, if someone doesn't attempt a task then he doesn't succeed at it or fail it.  The task might happen to be extremely difficult, but no-one has attempted it (perhaps because it is so difficult), so no-one has failed at it.  This task might also be very important, so if someone does attempt and succeed, then this success is meaningful.   I can give you more examples...  special relativity succeeded at explaining things that others had failed to explain.  But no-one had failed or succeeded at ever proposing a physical theory that claimed time was not absolute (with experimental verification) before Einstein.  That is an important success on its own, (for example for its philosophical importance), regardless of whether others had failed at explaining how Maxwell's equations are valid in all inertial frames of reference.

Of course, there's also just those things that are unexceptional but extremely unpleasant to do as well.  If almost no-one bothered to attempt to do these things, but the ones who did succeeded, then their success might be commendable.

So what you said is not true as a general statement.

Offline Armin

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2006, 05:22:41 pm »
I think it'd help if you gave instances where it's not true, instead of leaving us with an ambiguous statement. Also, thank you for that [sik]. Somebody might have thought that you made the spelling error, even though in big bold letters it says "Quote from: MetaL MilitiA".
I think it'd help if you didn't post ready made platitudes.   I don't like having to exemplify something that should be simple enough that you can think about it on your own (granted, it has to be pretty simple in your case).  Anyways, here's an example.  Success can be defined as the completion of a task.  If someone does not attempt the task, does he automatically fail it?  I don't think so.  And the success of completing this particular task may be commendable.

Is complex analysis (imaginary numbers) not an important success?  Had anyone failed at introducing complex analysis?
What about calculus?  What about algebra?  This list isn't exhaustive.
No matter how commonly used that phrase is, it fits perfectly into this discussion.

If somebody does not attempt the task, he obviously neither succeeds or fails. If somebody does attempt it, yet doesn't complete it, that's considered failing. Anything you can succeed in, you can fail in, even if it's as trivial as pressing a big red button. The larger the margin for failure, and the smaller the margin for success, success tastes much sweeter.

Introducing complex analysis, is the outcome of intense thought, of somebody attempting to find an answer to an equation. I can assure you that many, many people in the past have attempted to solve the equations that held negative square roots of numbers, yet failed. If complex analysis was complete common sense, and just about anyone that would think about solving an equation that matches the above parameters could succeed in it without any prior knowledge of complex analysis, than it wouldn't be much of a success, as the margin for failure would be little, and the margin for success would be large.

As you and I both said, if someone doesn't attempt a task then he doesn't succeed at it or fail it.  The task might happen to be extremely difficult, but no-one has attempted it (perhaps because it is so difficult), so no-one has failed at it.  This task might also be very important, so if someone does attempt and succeed, then this success is meaningful.   I can give you more examples...  special relativity succeeded at explaining things that others had failed to explain.  But no-one had failed or succeeded at ever proposing a physical theory that claimed time was not absolute (with experimental verification) before Einstein.  That is an important success on its own, (for example for its philosophical importance), regardless of whether others had failed at explaining how Maxwell's equations are valid in all inertial frames of reference.

Of course, there's also just those things that are unexceptional but extremely unpleasant to do as well.  If almost no-one bothered to attempt to do these things, but the ones who did succeeded, then their success might be commendable.

So what you said is not true as a general statement.
I'm sure many people have failed at discovering a physical theory that claimed time was not absolute, because they've started a thought process, attempting to understand time, yet failed to come up with the same results as Einstein. That is failure.

Anyways, somebody doesn't have to actually fail at something for it to be a success. The larger the margin for failure, the greater the success.
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Offline Rule

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2006, 02:58:06 am »
I'm sure many people have failed at discovering a physical theory that claimed time was not absolute, because they've started a thought process, attempting to understand time, yet failed to come up with the same results as Einstein. That is failure.
You don't know that though. And if they hadn't, it wouldn't make Einstein's theory less of an important philosophical success.  I don't wish to continue arguing for the sake of arguing.  I only commented because the platitude "success is nothing without failure" is not a sound general statement, and I think I've provided more than enough support for this position.

Offline Armin

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2006, 04:36:39 am »
I'm sure many people have failed at discovering a physical theory that claimed time was not absolute, because they've started a thought process, attempting to understand time, yet failed to come up with the same results as Einstein. That is failure.
You don't know that though. And if they hadn't, it wouldn't make Einstein's theory less of an important philosophical success.  I don't wish to continue arguing for the sake of arguing.  I only commented because the platitude "success is nothing without failure" is not a sound general statement, and I think I've provided more than enough support for this position.
Quote
The larger the margin for failure, and the smaller the margin for success, success tastes much sweeter.
Quote
Anyways, somebody doesn't have to actually fail at something for it to be a success. The larger the margin for failure, the greater the success.
Thanks for over-looking both of those, both of which in different posts.
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Offline Rule

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2006, 01:33:57 pm »
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The larger the margin for failure, and the smaller the margin for success, success tastes much sweeter.
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Anyways, somebody doesn't have to actually fail at something for it to be a success. The larger the margin for failure, the greater the success.
Thanks for over-looking both of those, both of which [are][sic] in different posts.

You're welcome.  I already responded to those statements before you made them...  But I'll give you a different example this time.

While success is considered by most as a "favourable or desired outcome," whether something is a favourable outcome or not is a subjective personal decision.  Here's yet another example...   It may be much harder for one to become the chess champion of his country than to become a medical doctor, but he considers becoming a medical doctor a greater success as it is a more altruistic endeavour.  In the previous example, you can replace chess with "Go," or maybe some incredibly obscure mathematical game that only 5 people in the world know.  I think most people take into account a lot more than "margin for failure" when they decide how a great a success is.  And some people probably don't take it into account at all.

Therefore, in general, a greater margin for failure does not mean a greater success. 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 02:05:16 pm by Rule »

Offline Armin

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2006, 03:40:17 pm »
Point taken, yet while the margin of failure may be smaller for becoming a medical doctor, it still has an effect on how great the success for it is. There's obviously other factors involved, like the fact that succeeding in becoming a medical doctor will most likely help you succeed in life (depending on what your goal in life is). I guess you can't say, "The larger the margin for failure, the greater the success," but what you can still say is, "Success is nothing without failure," as no matter what, the margin for failure will still effect how great the success is.
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Offline Rule

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Re: Our fine school system continues to destroy America
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2006, 03:48:46 pm »
...but what you can still say is, "Success is nothing without failure," as no matter what, the margin for failure will still effect how great the success is.

I had tried to cover that point in this comment:
Quote from: Rule
...And some people probably don't take it[failure] into account at all.

All it takes is one person who believes in a particular circumstance a favourable outcome is not related to how many people fail at reaching that outcome, and then "success is nothing without failure," does not hold as a general claim.  Perhaps some people even have the reverse position -- a success is inversely related to the failure associated with achieving that success.  A general claim has to be true in every instance, and since there is an element of subjectivity associated with what one sees as "successful," it is near impossible to have "success is nothing without failure" hold with unlimited generality.

Besides, even in the medical doctor example, where there is still a degree of failure, that success surely wouldn't be "nothing" if there were no failure associated with the title.  However, I wouldn't deny that when I do something I don't think many others could do, it is more rewarding to me than if I had thought everyone could do it.


« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 03:55:18 pm by Rule »