Agnostic.

[rabbit]

"a Christian ministry that seeks to share the truths of God’s Word from the very first verse."

And?  How do I know it's true?  Because an old book and a lot of people say "it's true"?  You know what a lot of people said once?  It was "Heil Hitler!"  Does that make what Hitler said true, or right in any way?  You'll have a hard time convincing a <pleh> (I forget the word, "logical" is a bad replacement) person that religion is right and everything the person believes is wrong (science, evolution, etc...).  And "people like you make me sick"?  What ever happened to "Love Thy Fellow Man"?  Fuck you.

And, for your information I went to a Christian school for the past 6 years, so don't tell me what I do or don't know.

[skip]

"a Christian ministry that seeks to share the truths of God’s Word from the very first verse."

And?  How do I know it's true?  Because an old book and a lot of people say "it's true"?  You know what a lot of people said once?  It was "Heil Hitler!"  Does that make what Hitler said true, or right in any way?  You'll have a hard time convincing a <pleh> (I forget the word, "logical" is a bad replacement) person that religion is right and everything the person believes is wrong (science, evolution, etc...).  And "people like you make me sick"?  What ever happened to "Love Thy Fellow Man"?  Fuck you.

And, for your information I went to a Christian school for the past 6 years, so don't tell me what I do or don't know.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that. It just kind of pissed me off.

*Sigh*, did you read ONE article on that site yet? It's not to force you to believe that God is real, it's to help you "grow a little" (couldn't think of a better way to put it). You have to start somewhere, right?
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i3/answer.asp
Start by reading that.

Seriously, it's extremely hard to convince someone who shoots down everything I say without even researching or truely thinking about it.

[Armin]

Maybe he doesn't want to be convinced? No one can convince me that God exists, I'll have to find out on my own. If anyone tries to convince me, then I'll shut them down. The only time I'll talk to another person about is when I'm questioning a theory I have, like I did in this thread.

[skip]

Maybe he doesn't want to be convinced? No one can convince me that God exists, I'll have to find out on my own. If anyone tries to convince me, then I'll shut them down. The only time I'll talk to another person about is when I'm questioning a theory I have, like I did in this thread.

I understand. However, like it says in The Bible, Jesus will come like a thief in the night. You never know when He will come. It could be tomorrow, 100 years from now, next week, whatever.

I'm sorry if I was a bit [place the word you want here].

[rabbit]

I can tell you now: most people will reject what is forced on them, which is why so many people hate evangelicals, but are generally fine with the rest of the Church.  I'm fine with what I believe, and I don't care what non-violent structure you believe in.  As soon as someone says "I die for <insert religious reason>" or "Believe in what I believe or you will be eternally punished (or something)", I start getting mad.  It's basically what sites like Answers In Genesis are: propaganda sources designed to turn non-believers or keep current believers.  It's telling me that the right answers are in Genesis (whole Bible, really), and that if I don't accept that I'm damned to eternal suffering.  I refuse that.

[skip]

I can tell you now: most people will reject what is forced on them, which is why so many people hate evangelicals, but are generally fine with the rest of the Church.  I'm fine with what I believe, and I don't care what non-violent structure you believe in.  As soon as someone says "I die for <insert religious reason>" or "Believe in what I believe or you will be eternally punished (or something)", I start getting mad.  It's basically what sites like Answers In Genesis are: propaganda sources designed to turn non-believers or keep current believers.  It's telling me that the right answers are in Genesis (whole Bible, really), and that if I don't accept that I'm damned to eternal suffering.  I refuse that.

Sure, I understand where you are coming from.

The fact that you will be eternally damned to hell if you don't believe in Christianity bring some people into Christianity. People underestimate hell. So many people are like, "I'm going to hell anyway, it doesn't matter."

That site helped my strengthen my faith tremendously. I was hoping it would help you a little.

Question: What DO you believe in?

[Armin]

Me? I haven't given much thought into this yet, don't want to give much thought into it for a while, and don't want anyone's feedback into it.

I believe that if a person is good and pure, God won't send them to hell simply because they were a bit skeptical about whether or not God exists, as he isn't exactly out in the open. I believe that all good and pure people will be let into heaven, as once all of they all get there, they'll sure as hell believe God exists if they didn't already. I still don't know what I believe about why the bible says faith gets you acceptance into heaven. I'll eventually think about that.

[Sidoh]

This is something that I was looking for when I posted it, you finally understood one thing I was trying to say. Anyways, I actually thought a little about this before you posted this, and you made me think about it even more. Thank you, I now believe there are other possibilities than my theory.

It's your fault for convoluting something so simple in nature.

You added a lot of fluff to this; do not try to blame me or anyone else for overlooking what you were intending the "main point to be."  It wasn't nearly as obvious as you're making it seem.

Theory*, and yes, I posted it here so I could find flaws, not to attempt to spread knowledge.

It seems to be a series of causes and effects that you've deducted from a simple, intuitive guess or assumption.  Such could be looked at as a set of theories.

I was making it explicit that I, personally, see your "theory" as flawed.

The thing is, we weren't argueing. You think we were argueing about whether Christians are agnostic or not, even though I said this in my second post:

I don't really care if you attempted to nullify your accusation.  In the initial post (which should be considered the topic of this thread, by convention), you devoted an entire paragraph to attempting to prove through a series of twisted logistics that Christians are agnostic.  This is why I was so strong in making sure that you (and everyone else who reads this) understands that it isn't necessarily the case.

That wasn't a theory, it was just me being a technical ass. I also looked up the definition of "know", and found out I was technically wrong. Too bad it had absolutely nothing to do with my theory, and really nothing to do with disproving the existance of God. That whole first paragraph was just a build-up to the second paragraph, with the exception of that whole agnostic line.

To me, it doesn't matter if the whole paragraph was a "build up."  The whole paragraph revolved around this fundemental aspect: you thought/think that Christians are agnostic.  That's how I read it.  I re-read it, and that's still how I'm reading it.

So, basically, you posted this thread to make sure that there are no absolute proofs for the existence or non-existence of God?  That seems sort of silly to me!  Like I already said, if either of these existed, I don't think this conversation would be at all necessary; they'd be universally known.

[rabbit]

Question: What DO you believe in?

I don't believe in a set religion, nor do I regularly attend a Church or Meeting.  I was born and raised as a Friend.  I basically believe in a connecting force among all living things, regardless of what someone looks like or believes.  Everything has the right to live and be happy.  At the same time I am a very mathematical and logical (again, bad replacement word) person, and I do believe in big bang theory and agree with most of science.  I don't care what people believe in as long as they don't go around fucking with other people (suicide bomber Jihadists, evangelicals anyone?) and trying to a) kill them or b) tell them everything they believe is wrong and if they don't accept your way they are doomed to eternal pain and suffering.  Aside from that, I believe in both reincarnation and heaven and neither and both (it's complicated).

[MyndFyre]

I never said faith is supposed to be logical. By definition, an agnostic is somebody that thinks it's impossible to know whether or not God exists.

I think you have an incomplete definition of agnosticism.  An agnostic person is someone who *either* believes it's impossible to know with certainty that God exists, and/or does not believe it is relevant (simply does not care).

Christians don't know, they strongly believe. No matter how much they think they know, they only strongly believe. Anyways, I'm just trying to be a technical ass here, it doesn't really matter. What I was trying to get across, is that it's impossible to prove God's existance.

I wouldn't disagree with that.  In fact, I think it's a necessary component of Christianity.

I feel that if God does exist, he would make it so it's eventually possible to understand. I believe that if he did not, eventually scientists will not only find things that don't add up when they should, they will eventually be able to prove it.

I think you've said you're a Christian.  Remember the Tower of Babel, where God scattered the languages?  Besides, many of us have come to faith because we *don't* think that things add up the right way, and that in the current framework provided by science, that they *can't*.  That's how I did.

All the Christians and Catholics are psychopaths: "YAY END OF THE WORLD!"  Fucktards (offense meant).

I think you can excuse yourself from posting in this forum ever again. 

YOU CANNOT PROVE THE EXISTANCE OF GOD USING SCRIPTURES OR OTHER RELIGIOUS MATERIAL.

While you really can't prove the existence of God using much of anything at all, Joe's point is still somewhat valid.  Consider this: the Bible teaches that nobody really understood what Jesus meant when he talked about his death and resurrection ("Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in three days").  We then have two possibilities: the talk and story of Jesus' resurrection was true, in which case I would certainly say his claims to godhood were validated; or, the story was a hoax, in which case the biblical authors wrote a story in which they looked dumb.  Personally, I think that it's much more likely that it was true, that there were thousands of people who in fact did see Jesus after his crucifixion, because I really don't think that something that happened as powerfully as the Christian revolution through Rome could have happened without the truth of the event.  But, again, that's a matter of opinion.

I believe that if a person is good and pure, God won't send them to hell simply because they were a bit skeptical about whether or not God exists, as he isn't exactly out in the open.

I don't really believe that such a person exists.

[Armin]

I feel that if God does exist, he would make it so it's eventually possible to understand. I believe that if he did not, eventually scientists will not only find things that don't add up when they should, they will eventually be able to prove it.

I think you've said you're a Christian.  Remember the Tower of Babel, where God scattered the languages?  Besides, many of us have come to faith because we *don't* think that things add up the right way, and that in the current framework provided by science, that they *can't*.  That's how I did.

I'm actually agnostic, in a way that I can't lie to myself right now and say that I truely believe in God, and that I'm just waiting for some experience or something that will change that, so I don't exactly know what you're talking about with the whole Tower of Babel thing.

Anyways, I'm a little confused with this whole faith thing. Why would God base acceptance into heaven, simply because somebody believes in him, when often times that somebody is an evil corrupt person that was born into Christianity, and they've never actually went through the trouble of second guessing to see if they really believe? Why would God accept them into heaven, and not people that are just morally good people, that weren't able to lie to themselves about Christianity? If for some reason I don't find God in my lifetime, and I die to find that God really does exist, then I'll be just as faithful as everyone else.

I believe that if a person is good and pure, God won't send them to hell simply because they were a bit skeptical about whether or not God exists, as he isn't exactly out in the open.

I don't really believe that such a person exists.

Yeah, I used the wrong words there. I basically meant a person with good morals.

[Sidoh]

Anyways, I'm a little confused with this whole faith thing. Why would God base acceptance into heaven, simply because somebody believes in him, when often times that somebody is an evil corrupt person that was born into Christianity, and they've never actually went through the trouble of second guessing to see if they really believe? Why would God accept them into heaven, and not people that are just morally good people, that weren't able to lie to themselves about Christianity? If for some reason I don't find God in my lifetime, and I die to find that God really does exist, then I'll be just as faithful as everyone else.

That isn't the entirety of what Christianity states it requires for salvation.  There is also absolute penance: you're repentant of every sin you've ever committed.  If you're evil, the chance that you're sincerely repentant for every sin you've ever committed is non-existent, I think.

[Armin]

Add that to my above post then. If I can't lie to myself by saying I believe God exists, and I'm a morally good person that is repentant for every sin I've committed, will I get struck down and sent to hell? If so, why?

[Sidoh]

Add that to my above post then. If I can't lie to myself by saying I believe God exists, and I'm a morally good person that is repentant for every sin I've committed, will I get struck down and sent to hell? If so, why?

Yes, according to Christianity and other similar religions.

Because those who do not believe a reward exists are not worthy to receive it.

[Armin]

So if I tried to believe the reward exists, yet realized I'd be lieing to myself if I did say I believed, I wouldn't be worthy, even though I put forth the effort?

If you say yes to that, then that particular belief of Christianity makes me sick.