Author Topic: Agnostic.  (Read 13521 times)

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Offline Sidoh

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Re: Agnostic.
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2006, 01:36:46 am »
So if I tried to believe the reward exists, yet realized I'd be lieing to myself if I did say I believed, I wouldn't be worthy, even though I put forth the effort?

More particularly, if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as your savior, salvation is impossible.  As you've probably heard, Christianity states that Jesus perished in order to redeem the sins of every man that lived and will live.  Believing that this didn't happen makes it impossible to accept the reward he provided for you.

Repentence is the "key" required to unlock the unyielding forgiveness that Jesus provided when he died on the cross.  Being repentant of your sins means nothing if you don't believe in the entity that provides forgiveness.

Look at it this way: living a morally correct life is more or less for your own good.  You want to maintain a reputation as a reasonably acceptable, memorable and impacting person.  Being "good" for such a reason can inadvertently be perceived as greed.  It's impossible to selflessly live a good life unless you're doing it for a "higher reason," I think.

If you say yes to that, then that particular belief of Christianity makes me sick.

I'm hoping I effectively clarifed the reasoning for this above.

Offline Kaleeko

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Re: Agnostic.
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2006, 02:17:15 am »
Look at it this way: living a morally correct life is more or less for your own good. 

Also, in a sort of 'worshipping praise' of the fact that "Hey, Jesus died for me, that's so cool, I think I'm going to be a better person for it!" That's the attitude Christian's /should/ have, because in all honestly, if they don't, they really may not appreciate what God did for them. If they aren't Christian, however, it's good because morally correct people simply pwn people that aren't. To put it bluntly.

Though, this must not be confused with the evil (ebil) idea of works righteousness. Christians aren't good to /be/ saved, because people can't do fucking anything to save themselves. It was all God. Actually, technically, my demonination teaches that you can't even choose to believe in God, you only choose to deny him, because we're all given the innate will to believe in him, we just turn from him because of sin.

I don't have any idea where I was going with all that. I'm just talking.

Offline Armin

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Re: Agnostic.
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2006, 02:27:48 am »
Actually, technically, my demonination teaches that you can't even choose to believe in God, you only choose to deny him
I like that idea a lot. Can you explain it a bit more, like why is it true, etc?
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Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Agnostic.
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2006, 02:47:40 am »
Actually, technically, my demonination teaches that you can't even choose to believe in God, you only choose to deny him
I like that idea a lot. Can you explain it a bit more, like why is it true, etc?

If you read C.S. Lewis (very big in apologetics), he writes that, really, the fundamental sin of humankind is pride.  It's love for self over love for God.

Pride leads you to do that which God doesn't want for you, because God knows that it's not good for you.

Pride is the driving force behind compelling people to deny God.  Or, more accurately, behind them choosing to deny God.
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Offline Kaleeko

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Re: Agnostic.
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2006, 03:24:54 am »
I kinda suck at explaining, so I'll try my best. :P

When we're born, we all have sort of an ingrained sense of the fact that God exists, sort of an impulse to believe in Jesus, you could say. Basically, this means that without sin, we would automatically believe in God. There would be nothing more completely natural than to believe in what Jesus did for us. But, because of sin, we're torn from God; actually, at the moment of conception, we're pretty much tainted by sin. Sin, by definition, is seperation from God. Therefore, because of this, we basically are denying our sin when we believe in God, not actually choosing God. God already chose us, and we innately knew God, we just made the choice to seperate ourself from him when we choose not to be Christian.

Yeah, so I'm terrible at explaining. It's also been a while since I've went to one of my dad's bible studies. We went over this pretty in-depth while we were studying Revelation.

Offline Joe

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Re: Agnostic.
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2006, 03:40:35 am »
Revelation was a pretty awesome book. :)

Anyhow, God says to "be holy for I am holy". According to sucky dictionaries, "holy" means to be prefect, but sucky dictionaries suck. It means to be seperated from sin, therefore with God. When we're saved we begin the sanctification process in which we become holy (it never finishes though, until we die).
I'd personally do as Joe suggests

You might be right about that, Joe.


Offline Sidoh

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Re: Agnostic.
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2006, 03:44:43 am »
Anyhow, God says to "be holy for I am holy". According to sucky dictionaries, "holy" means to be prefect, but sucky dictionaries suck. It means to be seperated from sin, therefore with God. When we're saved we begin the sanctification process in which we become holy (it never finishes though, until we die).

Much more likely due to sucky translation.  If the definition is unambiguous across several distinguished dictionaries, the chance that it is misdefined is very low.

Offline Kaleeko

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Re: Agnostic.
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2006, 04:04:12 am »
Revelation was a pretty awesome book. :)

Anyhow, God says to "be holy for I am holy". According to sucky dictionaries, "holy" means to be prefect, but sucky dictionaries suck. It means to be seperated from sin, therefore with God. When we're saved we begin the sanctification process in which we become holy (it never finishes though, until we die).

Revelation is crazy. There are many, many different ways to understand it, and most are more than likely misinterpretations. It's a very sensitive subject, because Revelation, without a lot of careful study, can be completely misread.. And can lead to a lot of.. bad stuff. Yeah.

I believe more in the fact that when we're cleansed from sin, it's all at once. And it's when we ""go to heaven"". Sin taints us. If we're sinful, we're sinful. We're not partly good and partly bad. We're just fucking dirty. Sin is like a disease. We don't say "their throat has the flu". No, "they have the flu". Sure, we may become better people and seem better, but we're still sinful, we're still dirty, and that won't change until Jesus flicks his magic wand, and, bibbity bobbity boo, we get to wear itchy white robes and sing carols for the rest of eternity.

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Agnostic.
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2006, 06:29:00 am »
Revelation was a pretty awesome book. :)

Anyhow, God says to "be holy for I am holy". According to sucky dictionaries, "holy" means to be prefect, but sucky dictionaries suck. It means to be seperated from sin, therefore with God. When we're saved we begin the sanctification process in which we become holy (it never finishes though, until we die).

Revelation is crazy. There are many, many different ways to understand it, and most are more than likely misinterpretations. It's a very sensitive subject, because Revelation, without a lot of careful study, can be completely misread.. And can lead to a lot of.. bad stuff. Yeah.

I believe more in the fact that when we're cleansed from sin, it's all at once. And it's when we ""go to heaven"". Sin taints us. If we're sinful, we're sinful. We're not partly good and partly bad. We're just fucking dirty. Sin is like a disease. We don't say "their throat has the flu". No, "they have the flu". Sure, we may become better people and seem better, but we're still sinful, we're still dirty, and that won't change until Jesus flicks his magic wand, and, bibbity bobbity boo, we get to wear itchy white robes and sing carols for the rest of eternity.
LoL.

My preferred method of interpreting Rev. is this: John saw many things that he described.  What he could not explain, he explained as best as he could with what he did understand.  That means things he described, in certain measure, were like what he said.  Other things were metaphorical.

I think your "cleansed" analysis is correct, but I think the important thing is that, before the "going to heaven" part, we don't become "sinless" in life, but we're no longer accountable to our sin.  No longer being held accountable to it gives us the ability to come before God in a way that we couldn't before Jesus died on the cross. 

It's like the husband or wife who says to the spouse, "I know you're not perfect, and I love you anyway."  (Or, if you're Kaleeko, it's "I know you're not perfect, but I less-than-three you anyway"). 

Joe, good job at explaining what holy meant, although you did it kind of backwards (you said what it doesn't mean), so I'll clarify.  As it's taught these days, to be "holy" means to be "set apart to God."  As Joe said, that means set apart from sin.  We're called to be holy here, but it's impossible; and in light of the teaching that we are not accountable to our sin, we are given holiness through faith.
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Offline Kaleeko

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Re: Agnostic.
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2006, 02:00:23 pm »
<3 @ MyndFyre :D

I have nothing to disagree with what you said. Three cheers for no more pointless arguing! ^^

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Agnostic.
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2006, 02:44:41 pm »
<3 @ MyndFyre :D
Hehehehe :D
I have nothing to disagree with what you said. Three cheers for no more pointless arguing! ^^
Yeah, I didn't think we were that far off.  What I said was really just an extension of what you said.  Good times. :)
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Offline Armin

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Re: Agnostic.
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2006, 02:45:36 am »
Well, I've given it more thought, and this is where I'm at right now:
I can't lie to myself and say God does exist, and fully believe that Jesus Christ was in fact our savior. So, I'm going to ask him forgiveness for my sins, even though part of my still believes he doesn't exist. This is at least my solution until I do someday can fully believe God's existance. I saw a quote like this in someone's profile, it was like, "I'd much rather die a Christian to find there is no Heaven, than to die a non-believer to find out I'm going to Hell."
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