My question about heaven....

[iago]

I thought of most of that as well, but it still makes sense to say it because you're ascending to heaven, which is controlled by an omniscient, benevolent being.  He will define what is right and wrong.  While I do recognize the validity on the example of cloning and stem cell research, I don't think that specific issue will cause any controversy because there will be no need for it.  In heaven, you're perfectly content.  There's no need for something like cloning.  You don't need to use stem cell research because it cures physical ailments which won't be present in heaven.

Remember that ascending to heaven entails the separation of the metaphysical (soul) from the physical.  I think that alone answers several questions, since you're no longer bound to the laws of physics.

While it's true that those specific challenges will no longer arise, I would hope that other ones would.  If you are perfectly content all the time, that sounds like it would get boring.  I don't want to spend eternity content with my family, I want to overcome challenges and learn new things.  In Heaven, it doesn't sound like that would be possible. 

I don't know about you, but Heaven seems really, really boring to me. 

[Sidoh]

Being perfectly content doesn't allow boredom.

[nslay]

"God isn't logical", quoth you.

True, but meh.  Is there a place in the bible that says that free will exists?  I believe it's little more than illusion.  We're easy to fool.

Predestination, or Calvinism, is considered to be a heresy in Christianity.  Free will is an important aspect of Christianity because the choices made reflect your position with God or Satan.  Therefore, if predestination were the nature of the world, people would not only lack a soul*, but be predetermined to heaven or hell.  This does not sound like Christianity to me, a religion (in the bible) that emphasizes repentance repeatedly, an action that requires choice.

* People would lack a soul because the soul is the animating entity of the physical body, however, the physical body in a deterministic system is no different than, say, a mechanical clock.

[Sidoh]

Think of this situation.  I'm pretty sure that iago or someone else here posted this situation:

Imagine a computer that is completely aware of the outcome of every event in the universe.  It is totally aware of the reasons behind these events and all other events that have led to this event.  Since these outcomes are already known, how is it possible that the objects controlling these events have a choice?  The illusion of choice and free will is present, but it is not possible that the choice is actually present.

Now, replace "computer" with God and "objects" with "humans."

The lack of free will does not require the absence of a soul.  I don't think what you're saying is true, because you're assuming that in order for a soul to exist, free will must exist.  What if the soul is the battery for the clock?  What if it is what projects the predetermined actions?

Oh, and to specifically counter Joe's statement (again)

The way I see it, we do have free will (don't ask me to explain, it's just the way I like looking at things), and God can still be omniscient. He knows every single thing we've ever done or learned in the past, and how we would make a decision in any circumstance, because He knows every single thing about us there possibly is to know. In a way, I'd say He can't exactly see the future as if it's already occured, but He has no trouble whatsoever figuring out how we'd react and create our own futures. Er.. does that make sense to you? It's 3:54AM and I'm trying to explain my view of divinity.. hehe.

A reaction can only occur after an event, right?  Imagine this situation:

There are three "reactors" that have three different reactions based on a statement (one of the three possible reactions) passed to it by a different reactor.  Let each reactor be known as r1, r2 and r3, the result of a reaction as r1(x), r2(x) and r3(x) where x is the statement of the last reaction and each is defined as:



Now, imagine that one reactor sends a message to each of the other two and after each of the two reactors recieve a message, they send the output of their function (the statement) to the other two reactors.  Imagine this interval/value diagram (excuse the sloppiness):

http://sidoh.dark-wire.net/upload/files/4CXPQEGTBL-c5e72d69c437e532.jpg (Too big to add inline)

Now, even if God wasn't omniscient (you're saying he isn't by stating "he doesn't know the future"), but what you said was true, he'd still be able to predict every last detail that the future entails by this process.  This is obviously an enormously simplified version of reality, but you could classify each "reactor" with a function such as this and make a "diagram" such as the one I made.  Since God, by your statement, is able to determine the outcome of any decision, he'd be able to instantly determine the future as if what I've already said is true: he completely understands every detail of the future.

[nslay]

Think of this situation.  I'm pretty sure that iago or someone else here posted this situation:

Imagine a computer that is completely aware of the outcome of every event in the universe.  It is totally aware of the reasons behind these events and all other events that have led to this event.  Since these outcomes are already known, how is it possible that the objects controlling these events have a choice?  The illusion of choice and free will is present, but it is not possible that the choice is actually present.

Now, replace "computer" with God and "objects" with "humans."

You questioned where in the bible free will is mentioned.  I simply pointed out that Christians must believe in free will in order to be Christians.
Now then, you're assuming that God knows each outcome at every moment and concluding that the Universe is predetermined ... and why does God have to have this property again?  You're also assuming that each effect has a cause ... why do all effects have to have causes?

The lack of free will does not require the absence of a soul.  I don't think what you're saying is true, because you're assuming that in order for a soul to exist, free will must exist.  What if the soul is the battery for the clock?  What if it is what projects the predetermined actions?

No, but the lack of free will reduces an individual to the equivalent of an object, illusioned or disillusioned  by free will or not.
The sole separation between individual and object is the ability to choose.  By removing choice, an individual is, well, an elaborate computer ... and why should this have a soul?

[Sidoh]

You questioned where in the bible free will is mentioned.  I simply pointed out that Christians must believe in free will in order to be Christians.
Now then, you're assuming that God knows each outcome at every moment and concluding that the Universe is predetermined ... and why does God have to have this property again?  You're also assuming that each effect has a cause ... why do all effects have to have causes?

Because God is omniscient.  He literally knows everything.  It's part of his existence.  Omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, eternal, etc.

We may not be able to understand the cause behind something that is seemingly arbitrary, but an omniscient being would.

No, but the lack of free will reduces an individual to the equivalent of an object, illusioned or disillusioned  by free will or not.
The sole separation between individual and object is the ability to choose.  By removing choice, an individual is, well, an elaborate computer ... and why should this have a soul?

Why shouldn't it?

[nslay]

You questioned where in the bible free will is mentioned.  I simply pointed out that Christians must believe in free will in order to be Christians.
Now then, you're assuming that God knows each outcome at every moment and concluding that the Universe is predetermined ... and why does God have to have this property again?  You're also assuming that each effect has a cause ... why do all effects have to have causes?

Because God is omniscient.  He literally knows everything.  It's part of his existence.  Omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, eternal, etc.

We may not be able to understand the cause behind something that is seemingly arbitrary, but an omniscient being would.

Right, but you haven't answered my question.  Why is God required to know everything that is to happen?  He can be all controlling and know intimately the inner workings of the universe, but why couldn't he, for example, create a universe that isn't deterministic?

No, but the lack of free will reduces an individual to the equivalent of an object, illusioned or disillusioned  by free will or not.
The sole separation between individual and object is the ability to choose.  By removing choice, an individual is, well, an elaborate computer ... and why should this have a soul?

Why shouldn't it?

Because the soul is thought to be some metaphysical (not of this universe) entity that animates the physical body or controls mentality.  If the universe requires predestination, then it is not possible for a soul to control a body that has already a predestined life.  The soul couldn't possibly be a "battery" that performs predestined actions because, again, it is not constrained by the universe.
We can use your computer example to demonstrate that it is not possible for this to happen.  Suppose a processor is an "individual" and the "universe" in which it operates is the instruction set.  The processor is bound by the instruction set, much like individuals are bound by a deterministic universe.  Let's consider the processor's "life" to be a predetermined sequence of machine code.  The processor's actions and "life" are predetermined.  Suppose, now, that a user controls the processor (or becomes the "soul").  The user is not constrained by the instruction set and is not required to execute instructions in any systematic fashion that would normally bound the processor, thus violating the predetermined nature of the instruction set and machine code ... a contradiction.  In essence, because the user can control the processor, the user factors in a possibility that machine code is not executed properly, but in predestination, there is no such thing as possibility. 

[iago]

I think this boils down to the issue: what does 'free will' mean?  If somebody knows exactly what you're going to do, does that mean you aren't free to do it?  I mean, you're doing it by your own free will, but somebody knows you will, but does that make the action any less free?  Somebody posted something from Minority Report, which asks that same question.

[Sidoh]

Right, but you haven't answered my question.  Why is God required to know everything that is to happen?  He can be all controlling and know intimately the inner workings of the universe, but why couldn't he, for example, create a universe that isn't deterministic?

Because intimately knowing the inner workings of the universe results in omniscience.  If he is able to understand every last detail of every last "reaction" in the universe, he would know what the future entails.

Because the soul is thought to be some metaphysical (not of this universe) entity that animates the physical body or controls mentality.  If the universe requires predestination, then it is not possible for a soul to control a body that has already a predestined life.  The soul couldn't possibly be a "battery" that performs predestined actions because, again, it is not constrained by the universe.
We can use your computer example to demonstrate that it is not possible for this to happen.  Suppose a processor is an "individual" and the "universe" in which it operates is the instruction set.  The processor is bound by the instruction set, much like individuals are bound by a deterministic universe.  Let's consider the processor's "life" to be a predetermined sequence of machine code.  The processor's actions and "life" are predetermined.  Suppose, now, that a user controls the processor (or becomes the "soul").  The user is not constrained by the instruction set and is not required to execute instructions in any systematic fashion that would normally bound the processor, thus violating the predetermined nature of the instruction set and machine code ... a contradiction.  In essence, because the user can control the processor, the user factors in a possibility that machine code is not executed properly, but in predestination, there is no such thing as possibility. 

I think the term "soul" is ambiguous and opinionated.  I don't think it can be accurately defined since it cannot be studied, researched or viewed.

I should clarify that although, at this point, I still don't think free will exists, that I don't think it would be out of God's power (as you mentioned) to create a non-deterministic universe.  He is, afterall, omnipotent. .  However, I like this argument.

[nslay]

I think this boils down to the issue: what does 'free will' mean?  If somebody knows exactly what you're going to do, does that mean you aren't free to do it?  I mean, you're doing it by your own free will, but somebody knows you will, but does that make the action any less free?  Somebody posted something from Minority Report, which asks that same question.

When I talk about free will, I am implying that at any given moment, an individual is able to choose an action.  That is to say, there could be many possible actions that can occurr, even if one of those actions is most likely to occurr.  While some things can be known (without reasonable doubt) in advance, that doesn't necessarily invalidate any other possible outcome.  Suppose someone throws a punch at you, one could say that you are most likely to dodge the punch, but that doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility that you don't dodge.  So no, it doesn't make it any less free. 
My deal with predestination is that there is only one possible outcome at any given moment.  But I want to note something that is counter-intuitive, a fallacy I made on the vL forums once upon a time.  Just because there is only one possible outcome at every moment, doesn't necessarily mean the outcome can be predicted in advance.
An example can be shown with a very simple discrete time dynamical system:
x_n+1=ax_n(1-x_n)
This is a very simple recursion of the logistic map.  The variable 'a' is whats known as a bifurcation variable.
Now, if a > 3.57, the iterates (the terms generated by the recursion) experience a mathematical behavior known as chaos (well, there are strange windows after a > 3.57 where the iteration becomes periodic again).
Now, I claim to you, that even given x₀, the iterates are unpredictable after a certain point.  When I say "unpredictable", I mean the impossibility to know for certain future iterates without using the recurssion.  If you used the recurrsion to predict a future iteration, say x₁₀₀₀₀, then that'd be like predicting the weather for Thursday, by waiting until Thursday.
Now, the scary aspect of chaos, is that its predetermined.  So, in the case of a predestined universe, it's possible to lack the ability to predict.
So I emphasize, the difference between a non-determistic system and a deterministic system is only the presence of probability.  While some things can be known, without reasonable doubt, to occurr in advance, this does not invalidate other possible outcomes for a given moment.  Whereas, in the case of a deterministic system, while something can be unpredictable, there is only but one possible outcome at every given moment.

Now, I leave you with this question:
If we could rewind a day ... would the day happen exactly the same way?

See also:
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Bifurcation.html
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Chaos.html

[iago]

So wait, can God create a universe that's so non-deterministic that even he cannot predict the outcomes?

Can God create a rock that's so heavy that even he can't lift it?

If a force that cannot be stopped meets with an object that cannot be moved, what happens?

Those are all pretty self-contradictory.  The first one poses a pretty big problem here, because who's to say that our Universe isn't the non-deterministic one?

[Joe]

Apparently heaven is 24/7 worship of God, and we'll never get bored. If you think you're going to get bored, according to my pastor, that's the sinful nature. Personally I think it's entirely possible it could be another one of the church's stunts to explain the unexplainable, but whatever.

As for free will, MyndFyre totally explained my logic. Thanks!

And to iago, God can not possibly create a rock he can't lift, because his strength is infinite. There's a quote of Jesus somewhere that says if we tell a mountain to go jump in the ocean, and believe it will (faith, of course), it will. Likewise, God tells the rock to hop up in the air. Simple enough.

[Kaleeko]

Apparently heaven is 24/7 worship of God, and we'll never get bored. If you think you're going to get bored, according to my pastor, that's the sinful nature.

I must be pretty damn sinful, then. Drat.

Someone, quick, save my soul!! Douse me with holy water and pray to Jebus! Help me find the path to righteousness so I can eternally sing praises about a being that allowed me to sin so that he could save me from my gosh darn horrible self!

... Okay, I'm sorry. That wasn't very nice. I just have never liked the idea of perfection. Or the idea of allowing imperfection in the first place. If I believe in God and ever get to meet him, that's what I'd ask him. But, according to the idea of Heaven, if I ever even got there, by that point I wouldn't even care about my questions anymore. All work put into life and thought and philosophy and the search for knowledge, totally wasted so I can become a genderless, totally submissive unthinking blob for the rest of eternity. THAT JUST SOUNDS SO AWESOME.

.....

I'd like to point out that this may not be my real view. It may. But it may not. So Sidoh, don't eat me alive Because I'm Wrong. Kthnx. <3

[Sidoh]

And to iago, God can not possibly create a rock he can't lift, because his strength is infinite. There's a quote of Jesus somewhere that says if we tell a mountain to go jump in the ocean, and believe it will (faith, of course), it will. Likewise, God tells the rock to hop up in the air. Simple enough.

His power is infinite.  You just said it wasn't.  You're assuming there is a limit to one, which there isn't. 

Your logic doesn't make any sense because of exactly what iago said: "God can create a universe that's so non-deterministic that even he cannot predict the outcomes?"  You're also asuming God can create a word that he can't predict, which states that his knowledge and understanding of the Universe is limited, which isn't true.  Until you come up with a valid explanation, I don't suggest you act like you've made a breakthrough in philosophy. :p

[Joe]

And to iago, God can not possibly create a rock he can't lift, because his strength is infinite. There's a quote of Jesus somewhere that says if we tell a mountain to go jump in the ocean, and believe it will (faith, of course), it will. Likewise, God tells the rock to hop up in the air. Simple enough.

His power is infinite.  You just said it wasn't.  You're assuming there is a limit to one, which there isn't. 

Your logic doesn't make any sense because of exactly what iago said: "God can create a universe that's so non-deterministic that even he cannot predict the outcomes?"  You're also asuming God can create a word that he can't predict, which states that his knowledge and understanding of the Universe is limited, which isn't true.  Until you come up with a valid explanation, I don't suggest you act like you've made a breakthrough in philosophy. :p

I didn't read that part. I simply meant to state that God can throw any rock he wants to up into the air.