My question about heaven....

[Sidoh]

If I confronted my teacher saying that, he'd respond with something like "You proved the exact opposite by failing last year." I know I'm smarter than that too, but as you can see from my grammar here, whatever we're going to learn in Composition I'm already competent in, and whatever we'll learn in Literacy will bore me, so I'd rather stay with the easy crap than the boring and less easy crap.

Competent is not excellent.

[dark_drake]

@all the debate over free will: In my honors class, the question of free will came up in our discussion of the Iliad.  Basically, the professor flat out said that he would not discuss it because it's a pointless debate because you can't prove either side.

[Joe]

it's a pointless debate because you can't prove either side.

Bingo. I'm personally getting tired of it myself because it turns out we each state our points, the opposition states their points, wash and repeat. .

To go along with what I just said, I've got something for you to think about (debaters, not dark_drake): If we did not have free will, why is God making us debate this right now instead of just making us all know we don't have free will? A more involved question would be "Assuming we don't have free will, when will God get tired of playing this RPG with our lives and blow us all up?", but I'd like to see you're opinions on the former one first.

[Sidoh]

Basically, the professor flat out said that he would not discuss it because it's a pointless debate because you can't prove either side.

You can't prove either side using purely logic, but if it becomes a pseudo-religious debate and properties of a deity arise, interesting arguments and contradictions appear, which is precisely what this has become.

Bingo. I'm personally getting tired of it myself because it turns out we each state our points, the opposition states their points, wash and repeat. .

Throw in a little bit of you not understanding and completely ignoring some points and you're about right.

To go along with what I just said, I've got something for you to think about (debaters, not dark_drake): If we did not have free will, why is God making us debate this right now instead of just making us all know we don't have free will? A more involved question would be "Assuming we don't have free will, when will God get tired of playing this RPG with our lives and blow us all up?", but I'd like to see you're opinions on the former one first.

That's like asking "Why doesn't God show himself if he wants people to believe in him?"  Because it isn't necessary.  Why is energy conserved?  Because it is.

[dark_drake]

Well, my thoughts on it.  I believe in free will.  I think it's silly to believe that God, at the time of creating a soul, decides if that person is going to heaven or hell.  If it was predetermined, wouldn't that be what God did? 

[Sidoh]

Well, my thoughts on it.  I believe in free will.  I think it's silly to believe that God, at the time of creating a soul, decides if that person is going to heaven or hell.  If it was predetermined, wouldn't that be what God did? 

God isn't powerful enough to know?  I think that's silly to believe.

[dark_drake]

God isn't powerful enough to know?  I think that's silly to believe.

Why did God tell Adam not to eat of the tree if He knew Adam would? Why did he test Abraham if He knew Abraham would obey?

[Sidoh]

Why did God tell Adam not to eat of the tree if He knew Adam would? Why did he test Abraham if He knew Abraham would obey?

Why couldn't he?  Why would he not?  There are several questions aside from these that have no bearing on the existence of free will.  I already brought one of them up:

"Why doesn't God show himself if he wants people to believe in him?"

[dark_drake]

Why did God tell Adam not to eat of the tree if He knew Adam would? Why did he test Abraham if He knew Abraham would obey?

Why couldn't he?  Why would he not?  There are several questions aside from these that have no bearing on the existence of free will.  I already brought one of them up:

From what I've read, God does things for reasons.   What reason would there be to test Abraham if he already knew what would happen?

"Why doesn't God show himself if he wants people to believe in him?"

Does he want people to decide for themselves?  That's the point of faith, isn't it? Believing in what you can't see.

However, this debate is going to go nowhere as no one is capable of proving it either way beyond reasonable doubt. 

[Sidoh]

From what I've read, God does things for reasons.   What reason would there be to test Abraham if he already knew what would happen?

Yes, but that doesn't mean we're meant or even capable of understanding those reasons.

Given that free will does exist, are you implying that God would not foresee that outcome of Abrahams trials?  Are you saying that his intelligence and comprehension has a limit?

Does he want people to decide for themselves?  That's the point of faith, isn't it? Believing in what you can't see.

He's inherently incapable of knowing the decisions of each and every person existing?

However, this debate is going to go nowhere as no one is capable of proving it either way beyond reasonable doubt. 

I'm not really trying to persuade anyone.  It's blatantly obvious that this is a highly subjective debate and has little potential in terms of covincing anyone away from their beliefs.

I am, however, interested in hearing the justifications behind beliefs that others have.

[dark_drake]

Yes, but that doesn't mean we're meant or even capable of understanding those reasons.

Given that free will does exist, are you implying that God would not foresee that outcome of Abrahams trials?  Are you saying that his intelligence and comprehension has a limit?

I believe God tested Abraham because He wanted to make sure that Abraham did love his Lord above all else.  God wanted to make sure that Abraham would withhold nothing from God if God asked.  God did not know if Abraham would do it or not; that's why, at least in my opinion, He put Abraham to the test. 

He's inherently incapable of knowing the decisions of each and every person existing?

I think He can have a fairly good guess by looking into our thoughts and such, but He cannot influence what we think directly.

[Sidoh]

I believe God tested Abraham because He wanted to make sure that Abraham did love his Lord above all else.  God wanted to make sure that Abraham would withhold nothing from God if God asked.  God did not know if Abraham would do it or not; that's why, at least in my opinion, He put Abraham to the test. 

So you're saying God isn't omniscient.

I think He can have a fairly good guess by looking into our thoughts and such, but He cannot influence what we think directly.

So you're saying he isn't omniscient or omnipotent?

[dark_drake]

I believe God tested Abraham because He wanted to make sure that Abraham did love his Lord above all else.  God wanted to make sure that Abraham would withhold nothing from God if God asked.  God did not know if Abraham would do it or not; that's why, at least in my opinion, He put Abraham to the test. 

So you're saying God isn't omniscient.

I'm saying God tested Abraham to be sure.  If you want to take it that way, then I'm a blasphemer.

I think He can have a fairly good guess by looking into our thoughts and such, but He cannot influence what we think directly.

So you're saying he isn't omniscient or omnipotent?

He can give us signs, deter us by creating obstacles, but I don't think He can force us to do everything his way.  God created man and I believe He gave man the choice of whether or not to believe in Him.  I think having people willingly believe in Him would mean more than an army of robots who believe in Him because He programmed them that way.

[Sidoh]

I'm saying God tested Abraham to be sure.  If you want to take it that way, then I'm a blasphemer.

If God was unable to determine the outcome of Abraham's trials, he couldn't have been omniscient.

He can give us signs, deter us by creating obstacles, but I don't think He can force us to do everything his way.  God created man and I believe He gave man the choice of whether or not to believe in Him.  I think having people willingly believe in Him would mean more than an army of robots who believe in Him because He programmed them that way.

Which fully verifies my last statement.  You don't think he's omnipotent or omniscient.  If he was, he'd be able to do anything which you classified as "impossible" above.

[dark_drake]

So everything you've ever done that was wrong, every sin was because God wanted you to?  God wants people to go to hell, so he decides that they're going to die by killing themselves, right?  God decides that he doesn't like Jewish people, so he wanted Hitler to go ahead and exterminate them?  I refuse to believe that.