Question re: Constitution

[CrAz3D]

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

We the People of the US...& secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves...blah blah blah

so, uh, Constitution is for the people of the US, yeah?

[Sidoh]

No, it's for Xenu, supreme overlord of the universe.

[MyndFyre]

so, uh, Constitution is for the people of the US, yeah?

So what?  "People of the US" seems pretty nebulous to me.

[iago]

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

We the People of the US...& secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves...blah blah blah

so, uh, Constitution is for the people of the US, yeah?

Ok, so what that says is:
"We the People of the United States [...] do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

It was created by people of the United States.  ... so?

[disco]

Hell yes it's for US!  If it was for EVERYONE we'd be nothing but damn dirty Commies.

[iago]

Hell yes it's for US!  If it was for EVERYONE we'd be nothing but damn dirty Commies.

I don't think that that even makes sense...

[Towelie]

Hell yes it's for US!  If it was for EVERYONE we'd be nothing but damn dirty Commies.

I don't think that that even makes sense...

He is trying to say that he sucks at life.

[CrAz3D]

People of the United States...pretty much the same thing as people that are citizens it seems, no?

[Sidoh]

People of the United States...pretty much the same thing as people that are citizens it seems, no?

Are you trying to objectify something you so zealously claimed vague and subjective?

[CrAz3D]

People of the United States...pretty much the same thing as people that are citizens it seems, no?

Are you trying to objectify something you so zealously claimed vague and subjective?

I believe we were talkin about the liberties in the constitution earlier, some liberties are pretty clear...others not so much.

this is just the openning of the doc., and im not totally sure, thats why I'm asking.

[Warrior]

It just says we created it...what's the deal?

[Sidoh]

It just says we created it...what's the deal?

I have no idea what he's questioning.

[MyndFyre]

People of the United States...pretty much the same thing as people that are citizens it seems, no?

Nope.

[CrAz3D]

It just says we created it...what's the deal?

but doesnt it say we created it for us?

People of the United States...pretty much the same thing as people that are citizens it seems, no?

Nope.

so "the people of the US" means?....the people that...?

[Warrior]

"We the People of the United States [...] do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I personally think it should apply only to US Citizens but I don't know what the rules are.

[CrAz3D]

"We the People of the United States [...] do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I personally think it should apply only to US Citizens but I don't know what the rules are.

i think "the rules" are whatever the supreme court is saying at that time

[iago]

Guys, that line is saying who WROTE the constitution, and that's it!  Nothing else! 

It's exactly what me and Warrior said:

"We the People of the United States [...] do ordain and establish this Constitution[.....]"

Arguing about that line is meaningless! It's talking about the writers, not who it's for. 

If you want to argue about something, argue about the line that says, "WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

[Sidoh]

All men are created equally, iago.  Some men are just more equal than others.

Haha, but seriously.  Are you talking about the fact that it says "men" instead of all "people?"  I think "Man" was the gender-neutral (doesn't make much sense, I know) term way back then.  "Mankind," "Manmade," etc.

[Warrior]

GOOD POINT WOMEN ARE EXEMPT FROM THE CONSTITUTION. TERRORISTS? OK.

[iago]

All men are created equally, iago.  Some men are just more equal than others.

Yeah, yeah

Haha, but seriously.  Are you talking about the fact that it says "men" instead of all "people?"  I think "Man" was the gender-neutral (doesn't make much sense, I know) term way back then.  "Mankind," "Manmade," etc.

Yeah, I have no doubt that "man" is gender-neutral in this case. 

[MyndFyre]

so "the people of the US" means?....the people that...?

The people that are here according to the laws of the US.  That can mean citizens, permanent residents, legal aliens, etc.  People who are here and are recognized by the authority vested by the sovereignty of the US.

[iago]

so "the people of the US" means?....the people that...?

The people that are here according to the laws of the US.  That can mean citizens, permanent residents, legal aliens, etc.  People who are here and are recognized by the authority vested by the sovereignty of the US.

..... and that's who the constitution was written by.  I still don't see what the point is.

[MyndFyre]

so "the people of the US" means?....the people that...?

The people that are here according to the laws of the US.  That can mean citizens, permanent residents, legal aliens, etc.  People who are here and are recognized by the authority vested by the sovereignty of the US.

..... and that's who the constitution was written by.  I still don't see what the point is.

Me neither.

[CrAz3D]

so "the people of the US" means?....the people that...?

The people that are here according to the laws of the US.  That can mean citizens, permanent residents, legal aliens, etc.  People who are here and are recognized by the authority vested by the sovereignty of the US.

so constitution doesnt apply to illegal people here, correct?

[iago]

so "the people of the US" means?....the people that...?

The people that are here according to the laws of the US.  That can mean citizens, permanent residents, legal aliens, etc.  People who are here and are recognized by the authority vested by the sovereignty of the US.

so constitution doesnt apply to illegal people here, correct?

NO!  Go back and read what I said! 

It was WRITTEN by illegal people.  WHO CARES?

[CrAz3D]

so "the people of the US" means?....the people that...?

The people that are here according to the laws of the US.  That can mean citizens, permanent residents, legal aliens, etc.  People who are here and are recognized by the authority vested by the sovereignty of the US.

so constitution doesnt apply to illegal people here, correct?

NO!  Go back and read what I said! 

Guys, that line is saying who WROTE the constitution, and that's it!  Nothing else! 

It's exactly what me and Warrior said:

"We the People of the United States [...] do ordain and establish this Constitution[.....]"

Arguing about that line is meaningless! It's talking about the writers, not who it's for. 

If you want to argue about something, argue about the line that says, "WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

How can it be written by illegal people?
We were already a country, so we were here legally, and at the time I dont think there were restrcitions on immigration, so whomever came over was legal.

It was WRITTEN by illegal people.  WHO CARES?

So it was written by LEGAL people.

It ALSO says it was written to protect the interests of the people of the United States which to me means LEGAL people.


So far all that has been said is that people wrote the Constitution for the US (but it also says they wrote it for 'ourselves').  Also you said that it was written by illegal people, which is obviously wrong.

BUT, I'm open to how that might not work if someone can explain it, which you have not done iago.

[Sidoh]

*sigh*

[CrAz3D]

*sigh*

I'm just saying, everything everyone has pointed out to me so far is that the Constitution writers wrote it.  I'm looking at the whole phrase about whether or not the Constitutional writers wrote it for EVERYONE or just the people of the United States like it says.

iago said to go back & read what he wrote, he didn't address what I'm asking.

[Sidoh]

Person 1 200 years ago: "The sky is blue."
Person 2: "WHICH sky is blue?"

That's pretty much what you're doing.  They said they wrote it for the people of the US, and I'm pretty sure that's what they meant.

[iago]

Ok, let me explain this again.  In fact, let me translate your quote to modern english, maybe it would help:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

- We are the people of the US
- We want to form a more perfect union, and a bunch of other good stuff
- So we're establishing this constution for the United States of America


Where, in your quote, does it say that it's FOR the people of the USA? 

[CrAz3D]

Where, in your quote, does it say that it's FOR the people of the USA? 

and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity

The people of the US wrote it to "secure Blessings of Liberty to ourselves..."

That seems like it means for the people of the USA

[Sidoh]

If they weren't writing it for the people of the United States, who were they writing it for?  Their dead grandparents?  Some arbitrary starving slave child in China?  The constitution is the document describing the fundamental rights of and laws governing a united states citizen.  It doesn't apply to anyone unless they're a member of the US.

[deadly7]

Am I the only one who fails to see what the hell this topic is about?

[dark_drake]

Am I the only one who fails to see what the hell this topic is about?

CrAz3D is building as to why illegal immigrants deserve nothing from the US.  iago is saying illegal immigrants should have Constitutional protection or something like that.  At least that's what my guess is 

[Sidoh]

Am I the only one who fails to see what the hell this topic is about?

Hell no.

[rabbit]

Hmm.  The Constitution was written by a bunch of guys who revolted against their government because they were mad.  If they failed, CrAz3D, you'd be saying something like:
"Oi, those blasted revolutionists tried to make a country, yeah?  Well they can bugger off.  *sips tea*"

Our country was formed by this process:
1. Europeans hated our ancestors, so they came here and stole the land from the natives
2. Europeans still hated them, and taxed them.
3. Our ancestors didn't like it, so they got mad, despite having more representation and lower taxes, not to mention better protection, than the South/Central American colonies.
4. Our ancestors started a war (equivalent of "I hate you and I'm never speaking to you again") so they would get their own way.
5. Britain said "fuck them, they aren't worth it."

Now, tell me how the Constitution was written by legal US citizens when the US wasn't recognized as a nation until after the revolutionary war?

[Sidoh]

Hmm.  The Constitution was written by a bunch of guys who revolted against their government because they were mad.  If they failed, CrAz3D, you'd be saying something like:
"Oi, those blasted revolutionists tried to make a country, yeah?  Well they can bugger off.  *sips tea*"

Our country was formed by this process:
1. Europeans hated our ancestors, so they came here and stole the land from the natives
2. Europeans still hated them, and taxed them.
3. Our ancestors didn't like it, so they got mad, despite having more representation and lower taxes, not to mention better protection, than the South/Central American colonies.
4. Our ancestors started a war (equivalent of "I hate you and I'm never speaking to you again") so they would get their own way.
5. Britain said "fuck them, they aren't worth it."

Now, tell me how the Constitution was written by legal US citizens when the US wasn't recognized as a nation until after the revolutionary war?

The United States was a country before the Constitution was written.  The Declaration of Independence separated the US from Great Brittan.

If this wasn't they case, why would they start the document "We the people of the United States..." if the United States didn't exist until after the document was written?

[Warrior]

Hmm.  The Constitution was written by a bunch of guys who revolted against their government because they were mad.  If they failed, CrAz3D, you'd be saying something like:
"Oi, those blasted revolutionists tried to make a country, yeah?  Well they can bugger off.  *sips tea*"

Our country was formed by this process:
1. Europeans hated our ancestors, so they came here and stole the land from the natives
2. Europeans still hated them, and taxed them.
3. Our ancestors didn't like it, so they got mad, despite having more representation and lower taxes, not to mention better protection, than the South/Central American colonies.
4. Our ancestors started a war (equivalent of "I hate you and I'm never speaking to you again") so they would get their own way.
5. Britain said "fuck them, they aren't worth it."

Now, tell me how the Constitution was written by legal US citizens when the US wasn't recognized as a nation until after the revolutionary war?

You know..we beat Britain battle for battle..it's not like they deemed us "Not worth it"..I'm sure they would of loved to still have the colonies under their control.

[rabbit]

Hmm.  The Constitution was written by a bunch of guys who revolted against their government because they were mad.  If they failed, CrAz3D, you'd be saying something like:
"Oi, those blasted revolutionists tried to make a country, yeah?  Well they can bugger off.  *sips tea*"

Our country was formed by this process:
1. Europeans hated our ancestors, so they came here and stole the land from the natives
2. Europeans still hated them, and taxed them.
3. Our ancestors didn't like it, so they got mad, despite having more representation and lower taxes, not to mention better protection, than the South/Central American colonies.
4. Our ancestors started a war (equivalent of "I hate you and I'm never speaking to you again") so they would get their own way.
5. Britain said "fuck them, they aren't worth it."

Now, tell me how the Constitution was written by legal US citizens when the US wasn't recognized as a nation until after the revolutionary war?

You know..we beat Britain battle for battle..it's not like they deemed us "Not worth it"..I'm sure they would of loved to still have the colonies under their control.

Without the French armada on our shores near the end, the British would have had thousands more troops on the ground, and we would most likely have lost.  Britain deemed the war not worth the effort, as they'd have to open another front in Europe against France, which they didn't feel like doing.

Anyway, @Sidoh, oops.  I mix the two up :|

[Warrior]

Hmm.  The Constitution was written by a bunch of guys who revolted against their government because they were mad.  If they failed, CrAz3D, you'd be saying something like:
"Oi, those blasted revolutionists tried to make a country, yeah?  Well they can bugger off.  *sips tea*"

Our country was formed by this process:
1. Europeans hated our ancestors, so they came here and stole the land from the natives
2. Europeans still hated them, and taxed them.
3. Our ancestors didn't like it, so they got mad, despite having more representation and lower taxes, not to mention better protection, than the South/Central American colonies.
4. Our ancestors started a war (equivalent of "I hate you and I'm never speaking to you again") so they would get their own way.
5. Britain said "fuck them, they aren't worth it."

Now, tell me how the Constitution was written by legal US citizens when the US wasn't recognized as a nation until after the revolutionary war?

You know..we beat Britain battle for battle..it's not like they deemed us "Not worth it"..I'm sure they would of loved to still have the colonies under their control.

Without the French armada on our shores near the end, the British would have had thousands more troops on the ground, and we would most likely have lost.  Britain deemed the war not worth the effort, as they'd have to open another front in Europe against France, which they didn't feel like doing.

Anyway, @Sidoh, oops.  I mix the two up :|

So france was our ally? The fact that ragtag militia defeated the worlds most powerful army is something amazing. Sure they would of won if they would of gone zerg and sent thousands of troops..

[iago]

Ok, just about everybody who's posted here needs to learn to read. 

Crazed posted a quote from the constitution, and drew completely incorrect and totally false conclusions from it to further his viewpoint.  I pointed out that he was drawing the wrong conclusion.

I didn't say anything about illegal immigrants having rights or anything like that.  Those were implications he was trying to make with text that wasn't there. 

I think it's important to look at what Lincoln said about "all men are created equal", but that's an entirely different topic. 

[Warrior]

Hey..I agreed with you!

[iago]

Hey..I agreed with you!

That's why I said "just about everyone"

[CrAz3D]

Hmm.  The Constitution was written by a bunch of guys who revolted against their government because they were mad.  If they failed, CrAz3D, you'd be saying something like:
"Oi, those blasted revolutionists tried to make a country, yeah?  Well they can bugger off.  *sips tea*"

Our country was formed by this process:
1. Europeans hated our ancestors, so they came here and stole the land from the natives
2. Europeans still hated them, and taxed them.
3. Our ancestors didn't like it, so they got mad, despite having more representation and lower taxes, not to mention better protection, than the South/Central American colonies.
4. Our ancestors started a war (equivalent of "I hate you and I'm never speaking to you again") so they would get their own way.
5. Britain said "fuck them, they aren't worth it."

Now, tell me how the Constitution was written by legal US citizens when the US wasn't recognized as a nation until after the revolutionary war?

The Rebolutionary War ended 1783
The US Constitution took effect 1789 after the Article of Confederation failed (when we were already a cuntry)
The people that voted for/against/wrote the Constitution were United States citizens.

Ok, just about everybody who's posted here needs to learn to read. 

Crazed posted a quote from the constitution, and drew completely incorrect and totally false conclusions from it to further his viewpoint.  I pointed out that he was drawing the wrong conclusion.

But you haven't said WHY I've come to the wrong conclusion, you just said I'm wrong.

Sidoh seems to be on the same track I am on.

If they weren't writing it for the people of the United States, who were they writing it for?  Their dead grandparents?  Some arbitrary starving slave child in China?  The constitution is the document describing the fundamental rights of and laws governing a united states citizen.  It doesn't apply to anyone unless they're a member of the US.

And yeah, I didnt start this thread with the full purpose explained, I just wanted to see what everyone else thought of the "our" parts.

[Super_X]

Any one in America, or dirrectally effected by America should be treated like US citizens in regards to the Constitution.

[iago]

But you haven't said WHY I've come to the wrong conclusion, you just said I'm wrong.

Hmm, maybe I forgot to mention it.  Or maybe I said it 5 times.  I forget.  So I'll say it again. 

The QUOTE says who it was WRITTEN BY, and NOT FOR!  And THAT was your question!  So you're drawing the WRONG answer. 

Is that clear enough? 


(Why do arguments with you always end up with the other person repeating himself till he gets frustrated?  Have you noticed  pattern?)

[MyndFyre]

But you haven't said WHY I've come to the wrong conclusion, you just said I'm wrong.

Hmm, maybe I forgot to mention it.  Or maybe I said it 5 times.  I forget.  So I'll say it again. 

The QUOTE says who it was WRITTEN BY, and NOT FOR!  And THAT was your question!  So you're drawing the WRONG answer. 

Is that clear enough? 

(Why do arguments with you always end up with the other person repeating himself till he gets frustrated?  Have you noticed  pattern?)

That's not all though.  The quote also states what it was written for:

...in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity...

[CrAz3D]

But you haven't said WHY I've come to the wrong conclusion, you just said I'm wrong.

Hmm, maybe I forgot to mention it.  Or maybe I said it 5 times.  I forget.  So I'll say it again. 

The QUOTE says who it was WRITTEN BY, and NOT FOR!  And THAT was your question!  So you're drawing the WRONG answer. 

Is that clear enough? 


(Why do arguments with you always end up with the other person repeating himself till he gets frustrated?  Have you noticed  pattern?)

Read the whole thing, then read what MyndFyre said, then read what I said.

Also, I think my original question was regarding for

[dark_drake]

Any one in America, or dirrectally effected by America should be treated like US citizens in regards to the Constitution.

Is it our moral obligation to allow them to bear arms? Why is it our duty to guarantee criminals (illegal immigrants) all rights set forth in the Constitution?

[Sidoh]

Any one in America, or dirrectally effected by America should be treated like US citizens in regards to the Constitution.

I certainly don't think that should be necessarily true for every right issued in the constitution.

[MyndFyre]

Any one in America, or dirrectally effected by America should be treated like US citizens in regards to the Constitution.

I certainly don't think that should be necessarily true for every right issued in the constitution.

I certainly agree.

[iago]

But you haven't said WHY I've come to the wrong conclusion, you just said I'm wrong.

Hmm, maybe I forgot to mention it.  Or maybe I said it 5 times.  I forget.  So I'll say it again. 

The QUOTE says who it was WRITTEN BY, and NOT FOR!  And THAT was your question!  So you're drawing the WRONG answer. 

Is that clear enough? 

(Why do arguments with you always end up with the other person repeating himself till he gets frustrated?  Have you noticed  pattern?)

That's not all though.  The quote also states what it was written for:

...in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity...

That wasn't in the quote whose meaning he was trying to determine. 

[CrAz3D]

That wasn't in the quote whose meaning he was trying to determine. 

Reread my first post...

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

We the People of the US...& secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves...blah blah blah

so, uh, Constitution is for the people of the US, yeah?

[iago]

That wasn't in the quote whose meaning he was trying to determine. 

Reread my first post...

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

We the People of the US...& secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves...blah blah blah

so, uh, Constitution is for the people of the US, yeah?

That wasn't part of the quote, or enclosed in quotation marks, so I assumed that was YOU talking, not them.  Sorry

[CrAz3D]

Maybe you should read so you don't argue on for a few days making yourself look foolish.


So, I guess we can agree that it appears that the Constitution is written by the people of the US for the people of the US.  Cool.
Thats what I was wanting to get others' input on.