Author Topic: My 1st amendment was violated today  (Read 11041 times)

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trust

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My 1st amendment was violated today
« on: December 13, 2006, 07:08:12 pm »
I'm sure many of you know the story of my lacrosse situation. My school doesn't field a team so about 5 of us play for another school in our city (the only public school in the city with a team) which happens to be the bitter rival of my school. Now, at first things were rocky between those from my school and those from the other, but now I've made alot of friends from the team and get along well with most of the team. I have pride in my team, I think my coach is a great time, and I've just had the time of my life playing lacrosse with them. Last year a few kids wore their jerseys around school on gameday and there were some complaints. Our principal made an announcement saying that the students were allowed to wear their jerseys and he explained the lacrosse situation. This year alot of people know about the lacrosse situation and I rarely get comments when I wear one of my lacrosse shirts, with the exception of a few from teachers who say something jokingly.

Until today.

I was doing a psychology experiment that involved determining if people could retain directions better via sight or hearing and they had to walk to a certain destination in the school. I designed the experiment and was walking with the subjects to record errors and time. I walked past two security guards (the lead security guard and the female one), and I happened to be wearing one of my Maury Lacrosse shirts. I hear the female guard say "His shirt says Maury on it!" and at this point she was about 30-40 feet behind me. I turn around and kind of laugh because I think they're just kidding, and I just say back "I'm doing an experiment" because I thought they were going to ask about it like one of the other security guards had done earlier this year (I wasn't wearing a shirt when he did though.) Anyway the lead security guard says "He's going to have a problem if he keeps walking away when I'm talking to him." (I was going up a flight of stairs at this point) and immediately I stop and try to tell them that I'm doing a timed experiment. They tell me that I'm not allowed to wear that shirt and I need to cover it up or change shirts immediately. He told me it was out of respect for my school or something. The other students I was with were pretty much in shock, because they thought he was kidding too but he was literally yelling at me.

I complied and put my jacket on when I got into the classroom, but I'm pretty erked by it. He has no right to keep me from wearing my shirt, and the only thing I can see that I'd be doing wrong by wearing it again is being insubordinate. But that only applies to a "reasonable request" it is not, in my opinion, reasonable to forfeit my 1st Amendment Right over something so petty. Tinker vs. Des Moines upheld that the freedom of expression and due process are not forefeited when entering a public school. Staff and students both have this right still, although it can be limited by school policies or some-such. But, the thing is, I'm not breaking the dress code.

Quote
The Norfolk Public School dress regulation states that students shall not wear the following items:

1) Clothing, pins, jewelry, accessories or other items of adornment displaying obscene, profane, derogatory, violent or gang-related messages, themes, designs or pictures;

2) Clothing, pins, jewelry, accessories or other items of adornment conveying messages related to or promoting the use of alcohol, drugs, or tobacco products, or messages that promote illegal activities;

3) Clothing, pins, jewelry, accessories or other items of adornment depicting bawdy, salacious or sexually suggestive messages;

4) Clothing that is transparent or exposes the midriff, navel or cleavage;

5) Pants, skirts and/or shorts that sag below the waistline or must be held in place with the hands;

6) Underwear as outer garments or clothing that exposes underwear; and items not appropriate for a classroom setting including, but not limited to, stretch lycra, spandex or nylon tights, leotards, biker pants, biker shorts, bathing suits, or pajamas;

7) Tank tops, halter tops, garments with spaghetti straps, tube tops, fishnet tops, strapless dresses, or other clothing that is not appropriate because of slits, rips or holes in the garment;

8) Shirts/blouses as well as T-shirts. Designed to be worn outside trousers, shorts and skirts may be allowed provided the length of such clothing does not extend below the wrists when both of the student’s hands are at his/her side.

9) Accessories which could in some way pose a danger to the wearer or others; and/or could be used as weapons (including, but not limited to, two-or-three finger rings, chains hanging from clothes, picks, or hair chop sticks);

10) Clothing that is too tight and/or is inappropriate in length as measured by any of the following measuring methods, as determined by the building principal/designee:

    (a) shorter than six (6) inches above the student's mid-knee; or,
    (b) fingertip length as determined when both of the
    student's hands are at his or her side; or
    (c) Length must pass Flamingo Test (Stand with both
    feet flat on the floor. Lift one foot and bend the leg backward at a 90-degree angle; the other leg must remain straight. If the back of the skirt touches the
    calf of the bent leg, the skirt is long enough. If the
    skirt does not touch the calf, the skirt is too short);

11) Inappropriate footwear (including, but not limited to, shower shoes and beach shoes, such as thongs, bedroom slippers, and unfastened shoes or shoes missing appropriate closures);

12) Head coverings or accessories that are not related to or required by student's bona fide religious practices (including, but not limited to, stocking caps, dew rags, wave caps, scarves or bandanas); and

13) Items that are intended for outdoor use (including, but not limited to, hats, caps, and similar head coverings; scarves; jackets and coats).

Furthermore, I had not been threatened as a result of my shirt, so I was in no danger. I was not promoting any illegal substances or activities, I was promoting a sport I love and a team I represent. Kids all the time in my school wear clothing that is too short, or too long, they wear flip flops they wear bandanas, they wear clothing with liquor bottles and shirts talking about beating snitches, getting their hustle on, and the amount of money they make. I wear a lacrosse shirt while I'm doing an experiment for a class I have a 107 A-average in, and I get in trouble.

I have a good relationship with my principal, and he's done multiple favors for me, and I know he'll allow me to wear it. But how should I handle it? I have witnesses that could atest to what happened but I don't remember exactly what was said. Should I just go to the security guard and ask him why I can't wear it or just straight to the principal? Should I submit my complain in writing or in a direct meeting. Should I wear my other shirt tomorrow and see if anything is said? My mom told me I should have gone to the principal right after it happened.

It's very irritating that this happened. Since it's "out of respect for my school" how come other people are allowed to wear shirts from non-rival area high schools? How come they don't say anything when I wear a Roanoke Lacrosse or Virginia Lacrosse or Hampden-Sydney shirt? I don't attend those schools, am I still disrespecting my place of education?

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2006, 07:12:46 pm »
1) Damnit GameSnake, why'd you quote all of that, lol/


2) Trust, complain (nicely) to your principal.  Don't ask him to do anything other than remind the guards that their job is security, not fashion police.

trust

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2006, 07:14:07 pm »
Should I bring up how I am constitutionally justified?

Offline Towelie

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2006, 07:15:31 pm »
Gamesnake, that was rude :P

Trust, that would've pissed me off. :) Just wear it when you want, if he tries to make you not wear it again refuse to do it. Don't change for him, take the problem somewhere else since you are clearly following school rules.

Offline GameSnake

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2006, 07:20:33 pm »
Fight it to the supreme court, Trust. Check this out, a kid is fighting his school in the alaskan supreme court. Apparantly Bong Hits For Jesus is protected by free speech. The difference might be if your ON or OFF of school grounds though. On school grounds, the school has more rights than you.

trust

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2006, 07:22:47 pm »
Fight it to the supreme court, Trust. Check this out, a kid is fighting his school in the alaskan supreme court. Apparantly Bong Hits For Jesus is protected by free speech. The difference might be if your ON or OFF of school grounds though. On school grounds, the school has more rights than you.

Which is why I cited Tinker vs. Des Moines. It upheld that freedom of expression is still allowed in schools and that the right is not forefeited upon entry.

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2006, 07:23:35 pm »
Should I bring up how I am constitutionally justified?
nah, the security guards are security guards in a school for a reason, they dont know anything. 
just explain that you were trying to be supportive of your team & that they misunderstood & suggest that they do something productive instead of being fashion police.

our security guards missed 3 break-ins in 2 weeks in the parking lot, but they sure were able to ride around in their golf cart giving rides to people

Offline disco

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2006, 07:34:55 pm »
SUE (seriously)

Offline Armin

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2006, 07:43:25 pm »
The security guard obviously had no idea what she was talking about, and made a mistake. I'm sure if she had more time to think about it, she would've changed her mind. She didn't understand the background to it, either. Just wear it normally, and if she gives your a problem, inform her of the situation. If she disagrees, take it to the principle.

I see no need is sueing, other than to be greedy and steal away the American people's tax dollars.
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trust

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2006, 07:45:38 pm »
SUE (seriously)

Making me cover up my shirt isn't exactly a damage worth suing over. However, if I get suspended or something and the school board refuses to listen it could be an option.

The security guard obviously had no idea what she was talking about, and made a mistake. I'm sure if she had more time to think about it, she would've changed her mind. She didn't understand the background to it, either. Just wear it normally, and if she gives your a problem, inform her of the situation. If she disagrees, take it to the principle.

I see no need is sueing, other than to be greedy and steal away the American people's tax dollars.

I might not have made it clear in my original post. The head security guard (male) was the main person with the problem. I didn't hear the female say anything after she announced what was on my shirt. He was the one yelling at me.

Offline Armin

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2006, 07:47:01 pm »
Ah, all that writing made me forgot that he yelled at you as well. I really don't know, then. Maybe walk in his face again while wearing it, then when he bothers you, bring the principle into it just to rub it into his face? I don't know.

EDIT: Do you really think it's worth him to lose his job over it, or for him to possibly lose money/pay? If not, I would just forget about it.
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trust

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2006, 07:51:06 pm »
I don't want him to lose his job, but I don't think I shouldn't be allowed to wear a shirt in a public school especially when it doesn't break any rules. It is more a situation of me wanting him to know that by decree of the principal I'm allowed to wear my shirt and that him telling me it's disrespectful to my school isn't a justifiable reason of why I shouldn't.

It's a matter of what's right.

But really when it comes down to it I don't care about his job or pay.

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2006, 07:51:38 pm »
just make sure you continue to wear the shirts!

security guard at our school stopped me when I had my sunglasses on my head...wtf

p.s. I wouldnt care about his job either

trust

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2006, 08:03:08 pm »
My other shirt has "Trample the wounded, hurdle the dead" with a big lacrosse player on the back. The one I wore today just says "Maury Lacrosse" on the back. I'm afraid if I wear the other one tomorrow that they'll say I did it just to rebel (not that it matters as I'm legally able) and they may be able to say it's an intimidating shirt or something, I don't know.  I pretty much have all of my points that I'll make in an argument, but I don't know how to go about it. Maybe I just shouldn't say anything unless I get in trouble for it.

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2006, 08:04:56 pm »
My other shirt has "Trample the wounded, hurdle the dead" with a big lacrosse player on the back. The one I wore today just says "Maury Lacrosse" on the back. I'm afraid if I wear the other one tomorrow that they'll say I did it just to rebel (not that it matters as I'm legally able) and they may be able to say it's an intimidating shirt or something, I don't know.  I pretty much have all of my points that I'll make in an argument, but I don't know how to go about it. Maybe I just shouldn't say anything unless I get in trouble for it.
you should say something.

but yeah, dont wear that dead people one...that'd piss them off real good.  Just another plain maury one would be good ...

Offline Armin

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2006, 08:18:04 pm »
Quote
The Norfolk Public School dress regulation states that students shall not wear the following items:

1) Clothing, pins, jewelry, accessories or other items of adornment displaying obscene, profane, derogatory, violent or gang-related messages, themes, designs or pictures;
Yeah, they could probably get you for that.
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Offline CrAz3D

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2006, 08:22:27 pm »
Quote
The Norfolk Public School dress regulation states that students shall not wear the following items:

1) Clothing, pins, jewelry, accessories or other items of adornment displaying obscene, profane, derogatory, violent or gang-related messages, themes, designs or pictures;
Yeah, they could probably get you for that.
if he wore the second shirt.

the one he wore today just said maury

Offline Armin

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2006, 08:27:54 pm »
Quote
The Norfolk Public School dress regulation states that students shall not wear the following items:

1) Clothing, pins, jewelry, accessories or other items of adornment displaying obscene, profane, derogatory, violent or gang-related messages, themes, designs or pictures;
Yeah, they could probably get you for that.
if he wore the second shirt.

the one he wore today just said maury
Yeah, I was talking about the second shirt. I should've been more clear.
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trust

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2006, 08:29:00 pm »
Well I'm not going to wear the same shirt two days in a row because that just screams that I'm doing it on purpose. Should I wait until I wear it again and then talk to the principal if anything is said or should I just go to him tomorrow?

Offline Armin

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2006, 08:38:00 pm »
I vote for option A. Make sure you walk in front of the security guard though so something is said.
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trust

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2006, 08:40:02 pm »
Wear the same shirt? haha.

I could wear the other one and just wear my fleece open so that they can just see "Maury Lacrosse" on the front. If they said something over that then they're saying it just because it says Maury and not because of any violence related things. Then I would just bring another shirt to change into when he tells me to take it off and then I'd go to the principal. (Or not change.)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 08:42:12 pm by OG Trust »

Offline Armin

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2006, 08:49:59 pm »
Wear the same shirt? haha.

I could wear the other one and just wear my fleece open so that they can just see "Maury Lacrosse" on the front. If they said something over that then they're saying it just because it says Maury and not because of any violence related things. Then I would just bring another shirt to change into when he tells me to take it off and then I'd go to the principal. (Or not change.)
Sounds good to  me. :)
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Offline ZeroX

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2006, 08:59:39 pm »
Trust this reminds me alot of what happen at my school last year during the Immgration protest. Well a very close friend of mine wore an american bandna and was sent to the office because she refused to take it off.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9kVLz1a0gsM

Here is a link vid that I uploaded awhile back. It might help you in some way justify what has happen. Fucking school district.
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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2006, 09:35:53 pm »
Which is why I cited Tinker vs. Des Moines. It upheld that freedom of expression is still allowed in schools and that the right is not forefeited upon entry.
Schools can limit your first ammendment rights if they think it will be a distraction to others.  You were wearing a rival school's shirt, and the security guard may have thought you were doing it to be a nuisance, which would interfere with other students' right to an education.


I think my coach is a great time. . . .
I don't even want to know what that means.
errr... something like that...

trust

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2006, 09:54:06 pm »
Which is why I cited Tinker vs. Des Moines. It upheld that freedom of expression is still allowed in schools and that the right is not forefeited upon entry.
Schools can limit your first ammendment rights if they think it will be a distraction to others.  You were wearing a rival school's shirt, and the security guard may have thought you were doing it to be a nuisance, which would interfere with other students' right to an education.

Yes, but I received no complaints from students (nor have I) about it disrupting them. All of my classes proceeded without interruption or distraction. If anything, he interrupted my right to an education by skewing my experiments results.


And time should be "guy"

Offline dark_drake

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2006, 10:01:43 pm »
Yes, but I received no complaints from students (nor have I) about it disrupting them. All of my classes proceeded without interruption or distraction. If anything, he interrupted my right to an education by skewing my experiments results.
Ah yes, he had been following you around and just knew it wouldn't distract anybody.  It sounds like he misunderstood the situation and was just trying to do his job. You were wearing a rival's shirt, and if he was unaware of the situation, he could very easily jump to the conclusion that you were doing it to cause problems.

And just cross that trial out of your experimental results if you're that concerned about them.
errr... something like that...

Offline Newby

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2006, 10:04:49 pm »
I don't want him to lose his job

I do. Fuck him. Get his ass in trouble. Go straight to the Principal. He'll be understanding.
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I'd bet that you're currently bloated like a water ballon on a hot summer's day.

That analogy doesn't even make sense.  Why would a water balloon be especially bloated on a hot summer's day? For your sake, I hope there wasn't too much logic testing on your LSAT. 

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2006, 10:33:23 pm »
You're first ammendment? What was ammended to you? A penis? YOUR PENIS GOT VIOLATED BY A SECURITY GUARD?!

Seriously though:

AFAIK, security guards carry no weapons (other than a MAG light, nice mace), so your in no harm physically if you walk to the office with him on your tail. Plus, they're not police, so they can't arrest you (I think it's assault if they attempt to handcuff you.. you could even call it sexual assault, because being handcuffed by another guy is really, really weird). Generally, when the situation comes up that I'd like to go to the office immediately, I follow this:

Quote
Joe: I need to go to the office. May I go?
Teacher: No.
Joe: Reguardless, I need to go to the office and you have no reason for denying me that privilege. Bye.
I'd personally do as Joe suggests

You might be right about that, Joe.


trust

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2006, 10:35:59 pm »
Joe, what are you talking about?

Also our security guards have mace and I think handcuffs. We also have a in-school officer.

Offline ZeroX

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2006, 10:36:44 pm »

Quote
Joe: I need to go to the office. May I go?
Teacher: No.
Joe: Reguardless, I need to go to the office and you have no reason for denying me that privilege. Bye.

That would follow under the disruption of stundents education asking a teacher to do something other the the lesson can be a disruption and you are basically breaking the schools ToS.
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Offline CrAz3D

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2006, 11:14:04 pm »
schools ToS.
I'm sorry, I just had to lol.


...


LOL

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2006, 11:24:41 pm »

Quote
Joe: I need to go to the office. May I go?
Teacher: No.
Joe: Reguardless, I need to go to the office and you have no reason for denying me that privilege. Bye.

That would follow under the disruption of stundents education asking a teacher to do something other the the lesson can be a disruption and you are basically breaking the schools ToS.

1. ToS, haha..

2. I'd definately only do this during work time, or if the teacher started something with me. And if the teacher started something with me, (s)he is clearly already distracted and would probably be fighting longer if I didn't just leave.

Also our security guards have mace and I think handcuffs. We also have a in-school officer.

Ouch, that'd a bit worse. You say "officer", singular, so I'm guessing that'd be the officer involved in playing crowd control down in the special ed room (trust me, it gets bad down there, flying chairs / desks have increased my dodgeball skill) and writing out truancy sitations. She'd probably get involved at the security officers request, but I doubt she'd start something with you.

All in all, my argument towards this is that you're showing spirit towards your LaCrosse team, no? And it clearly says Maury LaCrosse, not Maury, so you're not showing spirit to that school, but to their team. It'd be bad to say that it's your school's team as much as theirs, but it is the LaCrosse team your school plays on, so it's not even "rooting for the opposing team" backstabbing-type stuff.
I'd personally do as Joe suggests

You might be right about that, Joe.


Offline Armin

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2006, 11:27:29 pm »
Seriously though:

AFAIK, security guards carry no weapons (other than a MAG light, nice mace), so your in no harm physically if you walk to the office with him on your tail. Plus, they're not police, so they can't arrest you (I think it's assault if they attempt to handcuff you.. you could even call it sexual assault, because being handcuffed by another guy is really, really weird). Generally, when the situation comes up that I'd like to go to the office immediately, I follow this:

Quote
Joe: I need to go to the office. May I go?
Teacher: No.
Joe: Reguardless, I need to go to the office and you have no reason for denying me that privilege. Bye.
My freshmen year, 2 kids got tasered by an on school officer during a food fight.
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Offline Joe

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2006, 11:52:46 pm »
Seriously though:

AFAIK, security guards carry no weapons (other than a MAG light, nice mace), so your in no harm physically if you walk to the office with him on your tail. Plus, they're not police, so they can't arrest you (I think it's assault if they attempt to handcuff you.. you could even call it sexual assault, because being handcuffed by another guy is really, really weird). Generally, when the situation comes up that I'd like to go to the office immediately, I follow this:

Quote
Joe: I need to go to the office. May I go?
Teacher: No.
Joe: Reguardless, I need to go to the office and you have no reason for denying me that privilege. Bye.
My freshmen year, 2 kids got tasered by an on school officer during a food fight.

That's just fucking bullshit. Yeah, they shouldn't have been food-fighting, but I'm sure a mashed potatoe ball is going to give someone a concussion and perminant brain damage. Or worse, the cop might get hurt!!
I'd personally do as Joe suggests

You might be right about that, Joe.


Offline Armin

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2006, 11:56:23 pm »
Seriously though:

AFAIK, security guards carry no weapons (other than a MAG light, nice mace), so your in no harm physically if you walk to the office with him on your tail. Plus, they're not police, so they can't arrest you (I think it's assault if they attempt to handcuff you.. you could even call it sexual assault, because being handcuffed by another guy is really, really weird). Generally, when the situation comes up that I'd like to go to the office immediately, I follow this:

Quote
Joe: I need to go to the office. May I go?
Teacher: No.
Joe: Reguardless, I need to go to the office and you have no reason for denying me that privilege. Bye.
My freshmen year, 2 kids got tasered by an on school officer during a food fight.

That's just fucking bullshit. Yeah, they shouldn't have been food-fighting, but I'm sure a mashed potatoe ball is going to give someone a concussion and perminant brain damage. Or worse, the cop might get hurt!!
Oh, I probably should've given the full story. The problem was that they continued to throw food even when asked to stop, and even threw food at a few of the teachers.
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Offline d&q

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2006, 11:59:51 pm »
During a fight at my school, this white geeky guy was taking on some kid name "Tyrell Q". To break up the fight, the security guard kinda fell on the weakling, and his knee basically exploded.
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Offline SNiFFeR

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2006, 12:32:47 am »
@Trust: Just keep wearing the shirt and if they say anything ask them to escort you to the office and speak with the principal about the issue. Do not become rude or angry or anything, just keep calm and ask them if they will walk with you down to the office. I've done it plenty of times just because someone seems to have a stick up their ass about something.

Offline Rule

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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2006, 06:38:47 pm »
Wear the shirt if you want to.  Don't go overboard proclaiming your rights and analyzing the situation; it's a waste of your energy.  There are times when it's important to make a big issue out of a clearly unfair situation, but this isn't one of them.  If you get in trouble, politely take it to the principal. 


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Re: My 1st amendment was violated today
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2006, 08:11:36 pm »
Wear the shirt if you want to.  Don't go overboard proclaiming your rights and analyzing the situation; it's a waste of your energy.  There are times when it's important to make a big issue out of a clearly unfair situation, but this isn't one of them.  If you get in trouble, politely take it to the principal. 



That's what I plan to do. I'm not going to stop wearing it just because they told me to, but if it happens again then I'll go to my principal (or maybe I'll just ask him and make sure I'm allowed or something.) It's just irritating that I was singled out when there are obviously more blatant dress code violations. Today I saw a guy wearing a shirt with a gun on the front saying "Shoot your drug dealer." I doubt anything was said to him.