Author Topic: Microsoft vs The Free World  (Read 19640 times)

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Offline Warrior

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2007, 08:54:42 am »
Microsoft stole the ability for a window to overlap another window from Apple. I'm not even joking. Look at Windows 1.

Wrong. Yet again.
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Offline nslay

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2007, 08:57:24 am »
(1) Microsoft already stole everything from Apple's orchard.
That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.  EVER.
Its speculation, but it has been thought that Microsoft has stolen code from Apple.  It has also been thought that Apple stole code from Xerox.  This was a long time ago though...I doubt anything modern reflects anything they might have stolen.  They made a movie about this called Pirates of Silicon Valley.
P.S.  Xerox had a "mouse", a GUI, a word processor, and ethernet, 10 years before anybody else had it.

Please see any book on Xerox PARC or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_PARC
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It is best known for inventing laser printing, Ethernet, the modern personal computer graphical user interface (GUI) paradigm, object-oriented programming, and ubiquitous computing.

So, I don't think its too far fetched to think that Apple or Microsoft stole at least ideas from Xerox and each other.

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(2) I think the case is hopeless. The menus "Applications," "Places," and "System" in linux guis are as standard as tabbed browsing in browsers. Yet you don't see Mozilla suing Microsoft for tabbed browsing. Furthermore, how else do you make a word processor? and a spreadsheet? and a presentation program like power point? It'slike putting a patent on particle accelators: it's plain stupid. It thwarts advancement in science and technology and puts money in corrupt hands.
Tabbed browsing?  Really?  Do you know how long the tabbed document interface has been around?

Microsoft Visual Studio .NET was the first major Microsoft product to use a tabbed document interface that conformed to design guidelines (such as Ctrl+Tab support).  Its final version was released with the .NET Framework 1.0 in Q1 2002 (VS.NET was available in beta much earlier).  When did Firefox incorporate tabbed browsing?  In "Lucia," version 0.3, released October 14, 2002.

So quit bitching about how Microsoft "stole" the idea of using tabs for documents

Opera is usually credited as the first browser having tabbed browsing, far before Mozilla and Microsoft even thought about it.
Please see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera_(browser)

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Tabbed browsing with a true multiple document interface (MDI) was an original Opera innovation in the field of publicly available web browsers.

Considering Opera came out circa '94-'95...I'd say Opera would own any such patent, not Microsoft. 

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(3) I heard that IBM and other companies set aside funds for linux's defense.
That's the point of the MS rep.  It's not that free if companies are setting aside these kinds of funds.
Anybody who knows BSD/Linux would already know that there is a heavy maitenance cost to run BSD/Linux.  The only advantage to BSD/Linux is that you don't need to buy licensing.
As an example, one of the FreeBSD core developers cite $170/hr for consulting services and IT work.

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(4) Microsoft is showing itself to be desperate and giving linux more public attention.
It's marketing.  Not desparation.  Do you know much about marketing?  Successfully marketing your product means making it look better than the competition, especially when you charge a per-seat licensing fee and your competition does not.
It sounds like Microsoft is uneasy about competition from the Apple and Linux front...especially with lots of talk around the net of people moving to Apple/Linux over Vista.
When I worked at the math help center, I noticed a steady increase of Apple laptops appearing in the help center over the years (People would bring laptops to do online work).  It went from rarely ever seeing an Apple laptop in 2003 when I started, to frequently seeing Apple laptops in 2006.  I don't have numbers, but the mere observation suggests that the Apple userbase is growing.

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(5) So many corporations use linux that it would be disastrous if they all of a sudden had to pay royalties... wtf kind of court would allow this?
I don't know.... the same court that awarded a woman multiple millions of dollars for spilling coffee on herself?

Realistically, though, the user companies won't have to pay the royalties.  It's the companies that have infringed on the patents.  They won't go back and charge the users post-hoc fees.
Although unrelated, the same court awarded a woman millions of dollars for far more than merely spilling coffee on herself.  I joked about it too, until I pissed someone off about it.

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In 1992, McDonald's settled with Stella Liebeck, a 79-year-old woman from Albuquerque, New Mexico, who suffered third-degree burns from hot coffee that she ordered at one of the company's drive-thrus.[15] The lawsuit, which became known as the "McDonald's coffee case", is a well-known product liability lawsuit in the United States that became a flashpoint in the debate in the US over tort reform.

Liebeck was in the passenger seat of her grandson's car when the accident happened. After receiving the order, her grandson pulled the car forward and stopped so she could add cream and sugar to her coffee. She placed the cup between her knees and attempted to remove the plastic lid from the cup. As she did, the entire contents spilled into her lap. The sweatpants she was wearing absorbed the coffee and held it next to her skin. Liebeck suffered third-degree burns over her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, genitals and groin. She was hospitalised for eight days, during which time she underwent skin grafts and debridement treatments.

I think thats exactly Microsoft's intent...they want to destroy Linux.  For our sake (and even yours) they hopefully won't. (Yes I hate Linux too, but I don't want it to be destroyed)

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(6) If Microsoft wins, everyone else loses (royalties from users and distributors). If Microsoft loses, only Microsoft loses.
So, twenty fat people form a class-action lawsuit against McDonald's for making them fat.  Clearly, these people had a choice about whether to eat McDonald's and chose to do so, perhaps to excess.  If they win, only McDonald's loses.  But if McDonald's wins, everyone else loses.  Therefore, despite McDonald's being in the right, we should rule against them because it's in the more-common good?

If Microsoft wins...who knows what will happen?  If they can do this against Linux, they can probably do it against BSD (which would be ironic).  Maybe even Apple?
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Offline iago

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2007, 09:00:17 am »
Tabbed browsing?  Really?  Do you know how long the tabbed document interface has been around?
I'm pretty sure Lynx was doing that before Opera.

Offline nslay

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2007, 09:06:47 am »
Tabbed browsing?  Really?  Do you know how long the tabbed document interface has been around?
I'm pretty sure Lynx was doing that before Opera.

Come now, curses' window/terminal functionality is hardly the same as tabbed browsing as we think of it.
However, in such a case...you're right.  emacs would be another example (multiple buffers).
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Offline iago

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2007, 09:51:42 am »
By the way, going back to the original topic, here's another article where a Microsoft spokesman claimed that the open-source movement is dead because most open source is funded by corporations. Of course, there's nothing in the open source creed saying that's not possible:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/090507_Database/09May2007_data05.php

And here's a good explanation/rebuttal from a guy at infoworld:
http://weblog.infoworld.com/openresource/archives/2007/05/microsoft_confi.html

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In case you thought that Microsoft was winning in the war against open source, you just need to read Bill HIlf's quotes to see that Microsoft clearly feels that it's losing. Or is in trouble. Big time. You don't go as negative on Apple as Gates has unless you're worried that you're losing. You don't bash open source as being...just like Microsoft unless you're worried that it is racing ahead.

Every time Microsoft says something bad about Linux, it always makes me feel good for the opensource world, because it means they're doing enough to attrack The Eye (think Lord of the Rings).


<edit> Another question is, why aren't they naming the infringing patents? Is it because they are afraid the patents will be debunked? Or because they know the opensource community will work around them? And don't ask me, I'm just quoting a Slashdot article here.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 10:14:49 am by iago »

Offline nslay

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2007, 10:20:59 am »
<edit> Another question is, why aren't they naming the infringing patents? Is it because they are afraid the patents will be debunked? Or because they know the opensource community will work around them? And don't ask me, I'm just quoting a Slashdot article here.

It's Microsoft, they want to destroy Linux...why can't it be that simple?
If they start sueing home users for patent infringement for using Linux (much like the RIAA/MPAA-approach), I'm sure that will hurt Linux a lot.  The article Newby posted has a hint of that RIAA/MPAA-approach on page 3.

EDIT: Ah, you said "aren't"...disregard my post.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 10:27:50 am by nslay »
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Offline iago

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2007, 10:41:58 am »
EDIT: Ah, you said "aren't"...disregard my post.
Make me! :P

If they start sueing home users for patent infringement for using Linux (much like the RIAA/MPAA-approach), I'm sure that will hurt Linux a lot.
Until somebody finds any one single patent violation Microsoft has made and starts going after Microsoft customers. If Microsoft can do it, so can others!

Offline Warrior

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2007, 02:04:42 pm »
Additionally, there is a law that states Microsoft much present such information because anything else is hurting the business of people like RedHat by Microsoft making such outlandish claims.
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Offline Warrior

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2007, 03:58:39 pm »
Its speculation, but it has been thought that Microsoft has stolen code from Apple.

Purely speculation. I'd like to see definitive proof.

In other news, It's speculation but it's been thought that the world is flat.
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Offline iago

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2007, 04:35:36 pm »
Torvalds' response. He ripped into MS good! :)

"It's certainly a lot more likely that Microsoft violates patents than Linux does. Basic operating system theory was pretty much done by the end of the 1960s. IBM probably owned thousand of really 'fundamental' patents... The fundamental stuff... has long, long since lost any patent protection."

Torvalds also commented on Microsoft's stated intention not to sue Linux users: "They'd have to name the patents then, and they're probably happier with the FUD than with any lawsuit."

Offline Warrior

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2007, 05:54:33 pm »
Torvalds' response. He ripped into MS good! :)

"It's certainly a lot more likely that Microsoft violates patents than Linux does. Basic operating system theory was pretty much done by the end of the 1960s. IBM probably owned thousand of really 'fundamental' patents... The fundamental stuff... has long, long since lost any patent protection."

Torvalds also commented on Microsoft's stated intention not to sue Linux users: "They'd have to name the patents then, and they're probably happier with the FUD than with any lawsuit."


Yes Microsoft violates patents, however they have cross patent agreements (You don't sue us, we dont sue you) with IBM.

I think this is almost like the "Who has the most nuclear weapons" fiasco of the Cold war.
One must ask oneself: "do I will trolling to become a universal law?" And then when one realizes "yes, I do will it to be such," one feels completely justified.
-- from Groundwork for the Metaphysics of Trolling

Offline iago

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2007, 06:18:20 pm »
I think this is almost like the "Who has the most nuclear weapons" fiasco of the Cold war.
Otherwise known as, "opening a whole can of worms."

Offline chuck

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2007, 08:18:30 pm »
If MS does have the guts to mention what patents linux violates, and they are unavoidable, most linux users probably won't pay.
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Offline Warrior

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2007, 08:30:10 pm »
If MS does have the guts to mention what patents linux violates, and they are unavoidable, most linux users probably won't pay.

I think this is mostly just to spread FUD as I meantioned above. They won't release the said patents because GrokLaw will just dissect it and knock one after the other down.

They're being evil, but playing it smart.

Edit: Wow.
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070513234519615
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 08:32:15 pm by Warrior[x86] »
One must ask oneself: "do I will trolling to become a universal law?" And then when one realizes "yes, I do will it to be such," one feels completely justified.
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Offline Ender

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Re: Microsoft vs The Free World
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2007, 10:19:45 pm »
LOL... like Microsoft didn't steal from Apple

What have they stolen from Apple?

?

I'd like to see some solid proof here.

Sorry, first time checking this thread since I posted.

(1) Apple made the first GUI (http://imrl.usu.edu/OSLO/technology_writing/004_003.htm)
(2) MS ripped off Netscape in IE
(3) I believe MS just made an iTunes equivalent, which many people are complaining about

Besides, only in the corporate world are there such things as "patents". In academia, ideas are built off of, not patented. You credit the discoverer (as the Platonists would say) or the inventor (so the Formalists would say). But you don't fucking patent it. I really do dislike business -.- but I do admit to being ignorant about it and that my thoughts on business may consequentially change.

I really don't care about Microsoft taking ideas from Apple... what I do care about is when Microsoft sues others for taking ideas from them, when MS does the same...
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 10:22:47 pm by Ender »