Author Topic: Get Acquainted with What You Eat  (Read 12475 times)

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Offline Ender

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Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2007, 02:19:19 am »
What's this about?
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Offline Joe

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2007, 03:12:51 am »
He's promoting vegetarianism. :P
I'd personally do as Joe suggests

You might be right about that, Joe.


Offline iago

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2007, 09:35:47 am »
So do you agree with this? Disagree? Think it's funny? Think it's stupid?

I hate it when people just post links...

Offline BigAznDaddy

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2007, 09:45:25 am »
skrew vegetarians i will eat all the meat i want

Offline rabbit

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2007, 09:54:24 am »
"If God didn't want me to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?"

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2007, 11:40:22 am »
"If God didn't want me to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?"
*highfive*

and not ALL meat farms (whatever they're called) are cruel like PETA shows

Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2007, 12:03:17 pm »
*highfive*

I'm not actually a vegetarian (that may change though).  However I think this attitude is very disrespectful.  If God didn't want us to eat humans, why did he make them out of meat?

Offline ZeroX

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2007, 12:44:08 pm »
*highfive*

I'm not actually a vegetarian (that may change though).  However I think this attitude is very disrespectful.  If God didn't want us to eat humans, why did he make them out of meat?


This little thing called Darwinism has been in effect since the beginning of time my friend. Survial of the fittest. Nobody has the right to say what should be eaten and what shouldnt but Iam sorry the shit PETA shows pisses me off royaly.  Aniamls are to be eaten that is a simple fact for their nutrition to our everyday lifes. Iam sorry Vegetarians are not healthy in my book I dont care how much Tofu your getting to make up for the protein.

Iam all for animals rights and love them all. But iam not going to stop eating Cows and Pigs becuase they are intelligent. So to ender, Fuck your site and all its bullshit they try to shove in your face. Let people do as they want and stop trying to Force them to be or do something that they dont want or really need to do. Goes for religion, politics, and all other arguments. Agree to disagree.
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Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2007, 12:48:06 pm »
*highfive*

I'm not actually a vegetarian (that may change though).  However I think this attitude is very disrespectful.  If God didn't want us to eat humans, why did he make them out of meat?


This little thing called Darwinism has been in effect since the beginning of time my friend. Survial of the fittest. Nobody has the right to say what should be eaten and what shouldnt but Iam sorry the shit PETA shows pisses me off royaly.  Aniamls are to be eaten that is a simple fact for their nutrition to our everyday lifes. Iam sorry Vegetarians are not healthy in my book I dont care how much Tofu your getting to make up for the protein.

Iam all for animals rights and love them all. But iam not going to stop eating Cows and Pigs becuase they are intelligent. So to ender, Fuck your site and all its bullshit they try to shove in your face. Let people do as they want and stop trying to Force them to be or do something that they dont want or really need to do. Goes for religion, politics, and all other arguments. Agree to disagree.

That doesn't really answer my question.  If survival of the fittest is sufficient justification, is it fine for me to eat my human friends because I'm hungry (if I can get away with it)?  Is it fine for people to eat their pets?  Eat their children? The issue is far more complicated than you are projecting.

Offline iago

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2007, 01:11:21 pm »
First, it should be pointed out that humans are designed to be vegetarians. As evidence, look at our teeth. Our teeth are similar to cows (herbivores), and nothing like dogs (carnivores).

Second, eating meat is all well and good a thousand years ago when there was a small population of people. And it would be fine now, as long as there were only a small proportion eating meat. However, with a huge population eating meat, problems are caused.

Go read Hardin's "Tragedy of the Commons". He talks about exactly this problem. A few people raising cattle is fine, but with more people, there's more competition. With more competition, they will find cheaper ways to do things, such as growing more cattle on the same amount of land, feeding them low-grade feeds, and keeping them too close together. This encourages lower quality meat, environmental damage, and spread of disease.

The problem stems from profit. You make more money if you damage land more. And if some farmers do it, everybody else has to. Otherwise, they won't make as much money and they will go broke.

The unfortunate truth is that the Tragedy of the Commons is on top of us right now. Look up the essay, it's really good.

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2007, 01:31:19 pm »
First, it should be pointed out that humans are designed to be vegetarians. As evidence, look at our teeth. Our teeth are similar to cows (herbivores), and nothing like dogs (carnivores).

Actually are teeth are designed to eat meat, as our canines are used to hold on to what we're eating better (not really needed if you're eating a little berry) and our wisdom teeth are left over teeth that were used back when we had to tear apart raw meat. As a species, meat was essential to our development. If we had continued to just be gatherers we would not have gotten the amount of calories and protein that was needed to fuel our growing brain. The beginning of us consuming meat really sped us up from an evolutionary stand point.

Secondly, the Bible says we have no right to condemn someone for not eating or for eating whatever they please. And regardless what we do we're doing it for the Lord. (Romans 14)

Quote
Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Furthermore meat eating is backed up multiple times in the Bible. (see Genesis where it says that animals are mans to subdue, (and that all seed bearing plants are for man...but that's another debate.)) And many people who have been deemed as good and people we need to be like are shown to have eaten meat, not to mention God instructing the eating of lamb for Passover.


If God didn't want us to eat humans, why did he make them out of meat?

Because man is God's image...

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2007, 01:42:42 pm »
*highfive*
I'm not actually a vegetarian (that may change though).  However I think this attitude is very disrespectful.  If God didn't want us to eat humans, why did he make them out of meat?
I think PETA is disrespectful of farmers and ranchers that take better care of their stock than some other ranchers and farmers.

Yes, its cool to eat your pet, just not people.  We have rights, I guess.


Also, for nutrition, we need meat and the stuff in it.

Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2007, 01:50:08 pm »
Yes, its cool to eat your pet, just not people.  We have rights, I guess.

I don't think you could have said anything else, on any subject, that would bother me more than this statement.  Hopefully you will live long enough to realise how deluded your thinking is.  Of course you don't believe so now, but this sort of thought is on par with how millions of Germans believed it was altruistic to gas Jewish families.  You would have been one of them.

Offline iago

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2007, 01:57:32 pm »
Secondly, the Bible says we have no right to condemn someone for not eating or for eating whatever they please. And regardless what we do we're doing it for the Lord. (Romans 14)

Yes, its cool to eat your pet, just not people.  We have rights, I guess.

Hmm...


Also, for nutrition, we need meat and the stuff in it.
100% false. Any nutrition you can get in meat, you can also get in the proper vegetables/herb/etc.

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2007, 01:58:11 pm »
It's possible to eat people in extreme cases. But even on a lower level, it's technically (using the Survival of the Fittest) to eat your fellow man, however there are laws in place and certainly morals. Those things are more high level though.
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Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2007, 02:37:39 pm »
Yes, its cool to eat your pet, just not people.  We have rights, I guess.

I don't think you could have said anything else, on any subject, that would bother me more than this statement.  Hopefully you will live long enough to realise how deluded your thinking is.  Of course you don't believe so now, but this sort of thought is on par with how millions of Germans believed it was altruistic to gas Jewish families.  You would have been one of them.

What?  Because I think people can eat their pets?  People do it all of the time.

Also, for nutrition, we need meat and the stuff in it.
100% false. Any nutrition you can get in meat, you can also get in the proper vegetables/herb/etc.
well, now I suppose.  But prior to crazy over produced weird stuff, it wasnt so viable to eat other things

Offline Hitmen

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2007, 02:39:52 pm »
I want to raise a farm of people for human consumption. It would be awesome.
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Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2007, 02:42:14 pm »
Ever seen the movie where the rich guys take a homeless dude out to be their carrying boy hunting...then they hunt him instead?
Crazy movie

Offline iago

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2007, 04:15:11 pm »
well, now I suppose.  But prior to crazy over produced weird stuff, it wasnt so viable to eat other things
It sounds to me like you've never talked to a vegan. In addition to not eating animal or animal products, vegans also avoid any kind of "over produced weird stuff" (whatever that means). They typically eat natural and organic foods. Also, they typically understand a lot more about vitamins and nutrients and stuff than the average person, because they have to.

Offline Newby

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2007, 04:16:07 pm »
I want to raise a farm of people for human consumption. It would be awesome.

We have to be able to shoot them in a 10x10 room first. Kind of like fish in a barrel.
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I'd bet that you're currently bloated like a water ballon on a hot summer's day.

That analogy doesn't even make sense.  Why would a water balloon be especially bloated on a hot summer's day? For your sake, I hope there wasn't too much logic testing on your LSAT. 

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2007, 05:26:15 pm »
well, now I suppose.  But prior to crazy over produced weird stuff, it wasnt so viable to eat other things
It sounds to me like you've never talked to a vegan. In addition to not eating animal or animal products, vegans also avoid any kind of "over produced weird stuff" (whatever that means). They typically eat natural and organic foods. Also, they typically understand a lot more about vitamins and nutrients and stuff than the average person, because they have to.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18574603/

There is obviously something missing from vegan diets when it kills babies...
Where else is the kid gonna get the nutrients to live without formula or breast milk?

and ps...veganism is impossible to follow 100%, so why bother?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 05:29:44 pm by CrAz3D »

Offline iago

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2007, 05:29:52 pm »
Funny, one of my best friends has a vegan family with two healthy children.

I'll have to ask him, but I'm pretty sure that breast milk is allowed.

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2007, 05:31:52 pm »
I hate it when people just post links...
I have a programming folder, and I have nothing of value there

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Offline Ender

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2007, 05:32:13 pm »
I'm seriously considering becoming a vegetarian or vegan next year when I go to college. I don't like eggs and I'm lactose intolerant so I figure I may as well go vegan and be deemed "hardcore" :P

It's obvious on a macroscopic scale that the world couldn't function without killing animals for food. But even though something might be necessary for the world in general, it doesn't have to be necessary for you. Unlike other people in the world, there are no dangers to my health associated with becoming vegetarian or vegan. So I am thinking about going veg. because I simply don't like eating animals when I don't have to. Another reason is that I don't like the conditions that farm animals are subjected to.

A common argument against going veg. is that farm animals exist solely so that we can eat them. If the whole world went vegetarian, farm animals would die out and eventually go extinct. I disagree with this argument because although it is true that the population of farm animal species would greatly decrease, there will be enough animal-loving good samaritans to preserve their species in some kind of human-directed safe habitat.

Furthermore, you have to address the issue of whether breeding animals so that we can subsequently kill them and eat them is better than not breeding them at all. Personally, I think that given the choice between breeding an animal to be slaughtered for food and not breeding an animal, it's better to not breed the animal. Consider the proposal of breeding babies for their meat and skin presented in A Modest Proposal. Of course, this is not at all the message of the essay, but it came to mind and substituting farm animals with humans in this situation is a good counter-argument. The essay does, however, apply to what iago said about profit driving the food industry.

There is also something aesthetically repugnant to me about eating meat. It's been this way with me my whole life. I really only eat well-done steak and very specific types of prepared chicken.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 05:35:14 pm by Ender »

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2007, 05:36:32 pm »
Funny, one of my best friends has a vegan family with two healthy children.
I'll have to ask him, but I'm pretty sure that breast milk is allowed.
then, it seems to me, that they aren't strict vegans.
Vegans eat only products from non-creatures I thought.

Offline Ender

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2007, 05:39:18 pm »
Funny, one of my best friends has a vegan family with two healthy children.
I'll have to ask him, but I'm pretty sure that breast milk is allowed.
then, it seems to me, that they aren't strict vegans.
Vegans eat only products from non-creatures I thought.

Dude, milk from humans is allowed. There is nothing ritualistic about the vegan diet. The reason why animal byproducts aren't allowed is because (A) the animals are penned up in farms (B) these farms drive the food industry (C) animal slaughter most likely goes on at those farms and (D) the conditions for the animals in the farms are poor... among other reasons.

Women breast-feeding their babies don't undergo the same experience ;P

Offline Ender

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2007, 05:42:15 pm »
Funny, one of my best friends has a vegan family with two healthy children.
I'll have to ask him, but I'm pretty sure that breast milk is allowed.
then, it seems to me, that they aren't strict vegans.
Vegans eat only products from non-creatures I thought.

It may not be possible for us to draw a straight line, but it is possible for us to be strictly vegan.

Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2007, 05:44:13 pm »
I think becoming vegan to be "hardcore" is a pretty lame reason.  Also, while I definitely see the logic behind an argument for vegetarianism and know that it can be practiced in an extremely healthy way, there are substantial drawbacks to being a vegan (you basically can't eat anything anywhere, and yes, it can be unhealthy - some of you may have heard of the "vegan stench"), and I don't see the benefits particularly.  Are the animals really unhappy being milked?  I don't really know, but I have a feeling they might like it as they were designed to produce milk throughout their lives (obviously under different circumstances).  Maybe an unmilked domesticated cow would be unhappy?

But I could be spouting ignorance, so please, inform me if you are able.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 05:50:28 pm by Rule »

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2007, 05:53:15 pm »
Funny, one of my best friends has a vegan family with two healthy children.
I'll have to ask him, but I'm pretty sure that breast milk is allowed.
then, it seems to me, that they aren't strict vegans.
Vegans eat only products from non-creatures I thought.

Dude, milk from humans is allowed. There is nothing ritualistic about the vegan diet. The reason why animal byproducts aren't allowed is because (A) the animals are penned up in farms (B) these farms drive the food industry (C) animal slaughter most likely goes on at those farms and (D) the conditions for the animals in the farms are poor... among other reasons.

Women breast-feeding their babies don't undergo the same experience ;P
What about organic foods then?
Like when people go fishing?  They take it out of the water, kill it, skin it, cook it, and eat it.  It didn't live a bad life up til the point of death.

Offline iago

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2007, 05:59:21 pm »
You're still killing a fish, so it's not allowed.

I think becoming vegan to be "hardcore" is a pretty lame reason.  Also, while I definitely see the logic behind an argument for vegetarianism and know that it can be practiced in an extremely healthy way, there are substantial drawbacks to being a vegan (you basically can't eat anything anywhere, and yes, it can be unhealthy - some of you may have heard of the "vegan stench"), and I don't see the benefits particularly.  Are the animals really unhappy being milked?  I don't really know, but I have a feeling they might like it as they were designed to produce milk throughout their lives (obviously under different circumstances).  Maybe an unmilked domesticated cow would be unhappy?

But I could be spouting ignorance, so please, inform me if you are able.
Being a proper vegan isn't easy, it takes a lot of commitment and work. In addition to knowing what not to eat (I doubt anybody here knows which colors are animal-based [hint: most colors we eat in food are made from gross stuff, like beetles and worms and such]), you also have to know what TO eat. Like I said, one of my best friends, along with his family, is vegan, and they're all perfectly healthy. Probably more healthy than you or me. But they are extremely knowledgeable about it, which is important.

Animals likely aren't unhappy being milked, but they're probably more unhappy that they're bred and forced to live a life which basically involves eating (eating chemicals and kinds of meat that they can't sell, such as brains [luckily that's been banned, thanks to BE]) and being milked.

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2007, 06:02:51 pm »
You're still killing a fish, so it's not allowed.
Dude, milk from humans is allowed. There is nothing ritualistic about the vegan diet. The reason why animal byproducts aren't allowed is because (A) the animals are penned up in farms (B) these farms drive the food industry (C) animal slaughter most likely goes on at those farms and (D) the conditions for the animals in the farms are poor... among other reasons.
From what it sounds like, eating a fish you fished for in a natural environment should be vegan-friendly.

Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2007, 06:05:10 pm »
You're still killing a fish, so it's not allowed.
Dude, milk from humans is allowed. There is nothing ritualistic about the vegan diet. The reason why animal byproducts aren't allowed is because (A) the animals are penned up in farms (B) these farms drive the food industry (C) animal slaughter most likely goes on at those farms and (D) the conditions for the animals in the farms are poor... among other reasons.
From what it sounds like, eating a fish you fished for in a natural environment should be vegan-friendly.

Quote from: Wikipedia, Definition of Veganism
A vegan (one who practices veganism) does not consume or use animal products, notably meat, fish, poultry, eggs and dairy products.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 06:08:41 pm by Rule »

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2007, 06:11:28 pm »
So there's just basically no point behind it, just kind of a "just because I want to" thing?  hmm, ok.

Does consume mean ingest or can it be more liberally interpretted to include general use of things like leather, furs, etc?

Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2007, 06:13:11 pm »
So there's just basically no point behind it, just kind of a "just because I want to" thing?  hmm, ok.

Does consume mean ingest or can it be more liberally interpretted to include general use of things like leather, furs, etc?

Read the encylopedia article.

In this context I assume it means ingest, although the "vegan philosophy" is specifically against the use of furs, etc. (Essentially anything that would be construed as cruelty to animals).


Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2007, 06:22:25 pm »
Quote
a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practical—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.
hmm......

SO, basically, they can't eat anything from restaurants, they can't use cars, they can't wear wool, they can't eat some crops (I know some stuff around here is fertilized with animal crap), they can't have pets...wow, this sounds really hard.
Whatever I guess ::)

Offline ZeroX

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2007, 06:30:24 pm »



Also, for nutrition, we need meat and the stuff in it.
100% false. Any nutrition you can get in meat, you can also get in the proper vegetables/herb/etc.

Yeah you can, But not a good source of it. ToFu is a substitute for protein but isnt at all filled as would say Red meat/white meat? 
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Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2007, 06:41:01 pm »
Also, for nutrition, we need meat and the stuff in it.
100% false. Any nutrition you can get in meat, you can also get in the proper vegetables/herb/etc.

Yeah you can, But not a good source of it. ToFu is a substitute for protein but isnt at all filled as would say Red meat/white meat? 
Today's market place allows for everyone to almost not eat real food and still be alive...provided you pop enough of the right pills.

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2007, 07:13:30 pm »
Secondly, the Bible says we have no right to condemn someone for not eating or for eating whatever they please. And regardless what we do we're doing it for the Lord. (Romans 14)

Yes, its cool to eat your pet, just not people.  We have rights, I guess.

Hmm...

Technically I suppose it's ok biblically to eat your pet, and my aunt knows people who were really poor and like ate their dogs or something. For Christmas my aunt/uncle/grandparents bought all of the gifts for "Santa" to give to the kids and stuff. This was a long time ago when I was still in elementary school I think, but it's pretty sad. Also eating your pet isn't as taboo in foreign countries. (For example, a Mongolian guy I know told me that when he lived in Mongolia it was regular practice, especially for poorer people, to eat dog) However, people...being the image of the Lord, are off limits to eat. It's just not allowed.

Speaking of PETA, I hate them. I think they have a good cause (better conditions for animals) but the way they do it are just far too extreme. They have their headquarters in my city, it's a multimillion dollar building...very very nice. They destroyed a bunch of marshland to build it though, which is kind of hypocritical imho.

As far as vegans and vegetarians go, to each his own. It's not my place to dictate what you eat...but it isn't their place to try and dictate what I eat, which I find is a trait of people who have such diets. They make it well known to everybody and complain when ever somebody is eating meat or something. They can shut up.

Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2007, 07:42:50 pm »
Secondly, the Bible says we have no right to condemn someone for not eating or for eating whatever they please. And regardless what we do we're doing it for the Lord. (Romans 14)

Yes, its cool to eat your pet, just not people.  We have rights, I guess.

Hmm...

Technically I suppose it's ok biblically to eat your pet, and my aunt knows people who were really poor and like ate their dogs or something. For Christmas my aunt/uncle/grandparents bought all of the gifts for "Santa" to give to the kids and stuff. This was a long time ago when I was still in elementary school I think, but it's pretty sad. Also eating your pet isn't as taboo in foreign countries. (For example, a Mongolian guy I know told me that when he lived in Mongolia it was regular practice, especially for poorer people, to eat dog) However, people...being the image of the Lord, are off limits to eat. It's just not allowed.

First of all, that's completely unnecessary and those people are really sick mentally, and obviously so is your family if they sympathize with that.  Secondly, shouldn't we try to be talking logically about this?  I assume some non-Christian, or non-religious people think it's ok to eat animals but not humans.

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2007, 07:48:29 pm »
First of all, that's completely unnecessary and those people are really sick mentally, and obviously so is your family
Seems to be a not particularly logical argument....
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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2007, 08:00:10 pm »
First of all, that's completely unnecessary and those people are really sick mentally, and obviously so is your family if they sympathize with that. 

I don't know the situation I just know we helped them out, how is that sick? It's not like they sent them a dog to eat, they bought the kids (under 10 iirc) Christmas presents...

And the only reason I referenced the Bible was because it was brought up earlier.

Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2007, 08:04:36 pm »
First of all, that's completely unnecessary and those people are really sick mentally, and obviously so is your family
Seems to be a not particularly logical argument....

Can you elaborate on what you mean?  It's illogical that I think it is unnecessary in North America for the poorest of the poor to feel the need to eat their dogs?  Or it is illogical that I think people who do so unnecessarily are mentally sick?  Or it is illogical that those who sympathise with unnecessary and disturbing actions are likely to be sick themselves?  And who says I'm making an argument.

re: Trust.  No, I would feel sorry for their kids too.  The comment about your family was unnecessary, sorry.  Although if I were (your mom or whoever) I would have called social services.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 08:06:13 pm by Rule »

Offline iago

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2007, 08:13:29 pm »
So there's just basically no point behind it, just kind of a "just because I want to" thing?  hmm, ok.

Does consume mean ingest or can it be more liberally interpretted to include general use of things like leather, furs, etc?
No, the point is to avoid needless death of animals. Strictly speaking, they can't injest animals, but, like somebody else said, vegans typically won't use animal products either.

SO, basically, they can't eat anything from restaurants, they can't use cars, they can't wear wool, they can't eat some crops (I know some stuff around here is fertilized with animal crap), they can't have pets...wow, this sounds really hard.
Whatever I guess ::)
Some restaurants cater to vegans. There are a number of them in my city.

Certain kinds of cars are ok. I don't think oil/gas count as animal products. That, I can level with.

You're correct that they don't wear wool.

They generally eat organically grown food. That means no pesticides, and stuff like that.

I'm not sure about pets, I should ask him that one day. But you are probably correct.

Yes, it's hard. And I have a ton of respect for them.

Today's market place allows for everyone to almost not eat real food and still be alive...provided you pop enough of the right pills.
Again, vegans go for natural. That is, avoiding chemicals. You can get the proper nutrients from the proper plants and herbs, as long as you know what you're doing.

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2007, 08:24:01 pm »
First of all, that's completely unnecessary and those people are really sick mentally, and obviously so is your family
Seems to be a not particularly logical argument....
Can you elaborate on what you mean?
It is only your opinion that it is wrong to eat a pet.  Many people do it all over the place.
My mom's rabbit had babies (when she was a kid) and my grand dad cooked 'em up on the grill, so I hear.  In Asia they eat dogs.
That's their deal, it seems odd, but whatever.



iago,
Needless death of animals...?  So if they were out in the wild and starving they WOULD hunt/fish?
By supporting companies that hire people that likely eat animals, aren't they enabling animal ingestion?
Also, oil is a product from organics, likely including animals...strict veganism, it seems, would oppose oil consumption.

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2007, 08:29:19 pm »
oil doesn't directly cause the death of animals, maybe processes used to drill it or something can when there are accidents. What you're talking about is fossils, and they've been dead for a long time.

And you can't discriminate someone from employment based on their diet, you're digging to far deep into this looking for loopholes. So what if someone at x company ate a hamburger, it's the vegan who doesn't want to. It's their body let them do it as long as it doesn't hurt someone else. (My Libertarianism shines.)

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2007, 08:54:34 pm »
eggs dont cause death of chickens, especially organic chickens

Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2007, 08:59:38 pm »
First of all, that's completely unnecessary and those people are really sick mentally, and obviously so is your family
Seems to be a not particularly logical argument....
Can you elaborate on what you mean?
It is only your opinion that it is wrong to eat a pet.

What a stupid and frustrating way to argue.  It's only my opinion in the same way that it's only my opinion that we should define a field axiom such that addition is commutative viz. a+b=b+a.

Offline MyndFyre

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2007, 09:17:20 pm »
And you can't discriminate someone from employment based on their diet
You most certainly can, if the company is not a public corporation.

Can you elaborate on what you mean? 
Most certainly.
It's illogical that I think it is unnecessary in North America for the poorest of the poor to feel the need to eat their dogs? 
Yes.  Grotesque as we may see it, if people are desperate enough to sell their bodies for abuse sexually, or their children, why would we stop for dogs?

Or it is illogical that I think people who do so unnecessarily are mentally sick? 
It is an opinion, but to make such an assertion as the basis for an argument or in the context of an argument is illogical.  For starters, it introduces an ad hominem attack - you aren't attacking the notion of eating dogs in and of itself as much as the people who do so.

Or it is illogical that those who sympathise with unnecessary and disturbing actions are likely to be sick themselves? 
Not if the foundation of your argument -- that the actions are unnecessary and disturbing -- is sound.  But I don't believe you've shown it to be so.
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Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2007, 09:38:58 pm »
It's illogical that I think it is unnecessary in North America for the poorest of the poor to feel the need to eat their dogs? 
Yes.  Grotesque as we may see it, if people are desperate enough to sell their bodies for abuse sexually, or their children, why would we stop for dogs?
There are quite a few problems with your analogy.  Most importantly, it is completely off-topic because my argument in the above quote is that even the poorest people in the US have sources they can go to for free food, and so eating a dog is unnecessary.  I don't think this would be hard to prove.

Secondly, there is an important distinction between self-harm and harm to others.

Thirdly, you are assuming as a premise that it is acceptable for people to sell their bodies for sexual abuse.  I have not expressed any opinion on this either way.

Or it is illogical that I think people who do so unnecessarily are mentally sick? 
It is an opinion, but to make such an assertion as the basis for an argument or in the context of an argument is illogical.  For starters, it introduces an ad hominem attack - you aren't attacking the notion of eating dogs in and of itself as much as the people who do so.
It would be an ad hominem fallacy if I were to write, "person A ate their dog, and person A is mentally sick, so what person A did must be wrong." (I feel sick almost writing about this...)

Also, I am attacking both the people who partake in something like that, and the action itself.  This is not illogical.

Or it is illogical that those who sympathise with unnecessary and disturbing actions are likely to be sick themselves? 
Not if the foundation of your argument -- that the actions are unnecessary and disturbing -- is sound.  But I don't believe you've shown it to be so.
First, it should be obvious to most people that the actions are unnecessary - we have food banks, etc.   And you really need further motivation for the disturbing part?  That is what bothers me so much.

Offline iago

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2007, 09:53:04 pm »
Needless death of animals...?  So if they were out in the wild and starving they WOULD hunt/fish?
By supporting companies that hire people that likely eat animals, aren't they enabling animal ingestion?
Also, oil is a product from organics, likely including animals...strict veganism, it seems, would oppose oil consumption.
Yeah, because there aren't any plants in the wild. And places were there aren't any plants, there typically aren't any animals.

The problem is that vegans lose the ability to digest animal proteins. Eating anything with milk, eggs, or meat in it will make them physically ill. So they likely wouldn't be able to in that case, either.

They aren't stupid, they know they can't change others. It's the same way that he is friends with me, even though I eat meat. Perhaps he's enabling me, but really he's just being realistic.

Oil consumption is an interesting problem, though. But I think an animal being dead for millions of years is sufficiently removed to be ok. Don't forget, however, that vegans are usually the same people who are environmentalists, so they don't drive unless they have to and have efficienter cars.

Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2007, 09:56:05 pm »
Needless death of animals...?  So if they were out in the wild and starving they WOULD hunt/fish?
By supporting companies that hire people that likely eat animals, aren't they enabling animal ingestion?
Also, oil is a product from organics, likely including animals...strict veganism, it seems, would oppose oil consumption.
Yeah, because there aren't any plants in the wild. And places were there aren't any plants, there typically aren't any animals.

The problem is that vegans lose the ability to digest animal proteins. Eating anything with milk, eggs, or meat in it will make them physically ill. So they likely wouldn't be able to in that case, either.

They aren't stupid, they know they can't change others. It's the same way that he is friends with me, even though I eat meat. Perhaps he's enabling me, but really he's just being realistic.

Oil consumption is an interesting problem, though. But I think an animal being dead for millions of years is sufficiently removed to be ok. Don't forget, however, that vegans are usually the same people who are environmentalists, so they don't drive unless they have to and have efficienter cars.

Using oil is not supporting cruelty to animals in any way. 

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2007, 09:57:51 pm »
Needless death of animals...?  So if they were out in the wild and starving they WOULD hunt/fish?
By supporting companies that hire people that likely eat animals, aren't they enabling animal ingestion?
Also, oil is a product from organics, likely including animals...strict veganism, it seems, would oppose oil consumption.
Yeah, because there aren't any plants in the wild. And places were there aren't any plants, there typically aren't any animals.

The problem is that vegans lose the ability to digest animal proteins. Eating anything with milk, eggs, or meat in it will make them physically ill. So they likely wouldn't be able to in that case, either.

They aren't stupid, they know they can't change others. It's the same way that he is friends with me, even though I eat meat. Perhaps he's enabling me, but really he's just being realistic.

Oil consumption is an interesting problem, though. But I think an animal being dead for millions of years is sufficiently removed to be ok. Don't forget, however, that vegans are usually the same people who are environmentalists, so they don't drive unless they have to and have efficienter cars.
what about at sea or in the winter (when vegetation is usually sparce and all you can find are rabbits or something odd)?



Rule, eating an egg is not support cruelty towards animals either

Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2007, 09:59:36 pm »
Rule, eating an egg is not support cruelty towards animals either

Yeah, I agree, although most vegans probably don't.

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2007, 10:15:15 pm »
Yeah, because there aren't any plants in the wild. And places were there aren't any plants, there typically aren't any animals.
There aren't any plants in the wild?  :P

Offline iago

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2007, 10:17:59 pm »
Eating an egg is the same as drinking milk, to put it simply it supports the notion of animals as slaves. Animals weren't born to feed us.

Although I'm starting to like milk and eggs less, as I think about it. Both are kinda gross. Milk is a substance made inside a female cow to support her babies. That doesn't sound too appetizing. And eggs are like that gross stuff that spills out of a woman who's having a baby. Again, not especially appetizing.

There are other gross foods I've recently learned about, too. You know that red colouring you find in a lot of foods? Some kinds are made from Cochineal, a kind of insect. There's also blue colouring made from snails and red from beetles (that one is banned in many countries, not including the US and Canada). Another kind of colour is made from tar.

These kinds of colours are used in all kinds of non-organic food, including many different fruits and vegetables. Some of them are known to have side effects such as photosensitivity and mood alterations. For example, oranges and salmon you buy at the grocery store may be coloured.

My point there, before I started rambling, is that vegans have to be educated in this kind of stuff, which isn't easy. I bet you don't even realize how many different chemicals and such you consume. I sure don't.

Offline iago

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2007, 10:18:33 pm »
Yeah, because there aren't any plants in the wild. And places were there aren't any plants, there typically aren't any animals.
There aren't any plants in the wild?  :P

I mixed sarcasm with non-sarcasm. My English skills are obviously too advanced for you ordinary peons. :P

Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2007, 10:24:21 pm »
Yeah, because there aren't any plants in the wild. And places were there aren't any plants, there typically aren't any animals.
There aren't any plants in the wild?  :P

I mixed sarcasm with non-sarcasm. My English skills are obviously too advanced for you ordinary peons. :P

Ok.  I had thought this, but I just had to check!

Offline iago

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2007, 10:26:04 pm »
Ok.  I had thought this, but I just had to check!
And did you notice how I referenced back to Craz3d's statement about Bush being an advanced English speaker? Genious! :)

Offline Super_X

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2007, 10:50:57 pm »
Secondly, the Bible says we have no right to condemn someone for not eating or for eating whatever they please. And regardless what we do we're doing it for the Lord. (Romans 14)

Yes, its cool to eat your pet, just not people.  We have rights, I guess.

Hmm...

Technically I suppose it's ok biblically to eat your pet, and my aunt knows people who were really poor and like ate their dogs or something. For Christmas my aunt/uncle/grandparents bought all of the gifts for "Santa" to give to the kids and stuff. This was a long time ago when I was still in elementary school I think, but it's pretty sad. Also eating your pet isn't as taboo in foreign countries. (For example, a Mongolian guy I know told me that when he lived in Mongolia it was regular practice, especially for poorer people, to eat dog) However, people...being the image of the Lord, are off limits to eat. It's just not allowed.

First of all, that's completely unnecessary and those people are really sick mentally, and obviously so is your family if they sympathize with that.  Secondly, shouldn't we try to be talking logically about this? I assume some non-Christian, or non-religious people think it's ok to eat animals but not humans.

There are very few animals that eat their own kind in nature, humans are one of the few. It's seldom eaten, and when it is, it's usually to show dominance.
A main reason for animals, and people, to not eat their own kind is because of diseases that exist from eating your own kind. Mad Cow disease is one, and there's one for every species in nature, they are just not common because most species don't eat their own grey mater.

On the point about Veg*s forcing their point of view down people's throats: I know many vegitarians, and a few vegans, and the only way I found out that was from hanging out with them, and noticing what they eat. I realize that it can change for every one, but, I just don't hang out with zealots of any point of view.

Offline Hitmen

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2007, 11:41:46 pm »
I'm a level 5 vegan. I won't eat anything that casts a shadow.

(I was thinking of posting this before, but the episode is on now so I had to)
Quote
(22:15:39) Newby: it hurts to swallow

Offline iago

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #61 on: May 17, 2007, 12:11:17 am »
I'm a level 5 vegan. I won't eat anything that casts a shadow.

(I was thinking of posting this before, but the episode is on now so I had to)
Do you mulch?

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #62 on: May 17, 2007, 12:43:31 am »
Eating an egg is the same as drinking milk, to put it simply it supports the notion of animals as slaves. Animals weren't born to feed us.
I think that their life's purpose is arguable.

Lions eat meat.
Cows eat grass.
Some animals we both, we happen to be one of those.

But still, eating an egg (even if it isnt the purpose of it) isn't cruelty towards animals

Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #63 on: May 17, 2007, 12:47:55 am »
I think veganism is an OCD paradise.  I think it is a sort of eating disorder, because almost anything can be construed to be somehow indirectly related to cruelty to animals; it is just an excuse to try and have total control and obsess over one other (important) aspect of your life, without really needing much of a rational justification, since claiming to be a "vegan" pretty much lowers those raised eyebrows.

Out of curiosity, (iago), does your friend, or more importantly, anyone in his family (since his veganism almost certainly started through his family), seem particularly obsessive about things?

Offline iago

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #64 on: May 17, 2007, 09:11:23 am »
I think that their life's purpose is arguable.

Lions eat meat.
Cows eat grass.
Some animals we both, we happen to be one of those.

But still, eating an egg (even if it isnt the purpose of it) isn't cruelty towards animals
Actually, cows often eat cows, also. The cheapest way to feed cows is to use the parts that aren't even good enough for hotdog meat.

Our nature is that we eat both. But this world is far, far from our nature. Our nature is more to hunt, not to farm. Although that's not really true either, ancient humans tended to eat fruit and berries rather than meat. Look it up.

Out of curiosity, (iago), does your friend, or more importantly, anyone in his family (since his veganism almost certainly started through his family), seem particularly obsessive about things?
Nope, not at all. He has strong political viewpoints, but that's about the end of it. He's not at all preachy or anything like that, either.

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2007, 10:56:55 am »
I think that their life's purpose is arguable.

Lions eat meat.
Cows eat grass.
Some animals we both, we happen to be one of those.

But still, eating an egg (even if it isnt the purpose of it) isn't cruelty towards animals
Actually, cows often eat cows, also. The cheapest way to feed cows is to use the parts that aren't even good enough for hotdog meat.

Our nature is that we eat both. But this world is far, far from our nature. Our nature is more to hunt, not to farm. Although that's not really true either, ancient humans tended to eat fruit and berries rather than meat. Look it up.
Different people ate different things.  Isn't the appendix theorized as to being a break down organ for bones that we ingested?

Also, I believe everything is natural.  Human beings are natural and we created things that are within our natural capacity, so I think those things came about by natural means.  Not natural in the sense og God created them, obviously, but natural through evolution.

Offline Rule

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #66 on: May 17, 2007, 10:59:57 am »
Nope, not at all. He has strong political viewpoints, but that's about the end of it. He's not at all preachy or anything like that, either.

Is he obsessively clean?  A perfectionist?  Does he like controlling a situation?  Is he at all paranoid or sensitive to things that wouldn't bother most people?  Does he wash his hands a lot?  Does he touch doorknobs with his bare hands?

I meant more along those lines.

Offline iago

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #67 on: May 17, 2007, 11:07:24 am »
Nope, not at all. He has strong political viewpoints, but that's about the end of it. He's not at all preachy or anything like that, either.

Is he obsessively clean?  A perfectionist?  Does he like controlling a situation?  Is he at all paranoid or sensitive to things that wouldn't bother most people?  Does he wash his hands a lot?  Does he touch doorknobs with his bare hands?

I meant more along those lines.


In all those regards, he's roughly on par with me, and most other people I know. So I'd have to say no. There's nothing weird about him at all.

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2007, 01:31:54 pm »
Quote
Our nature is that we eat both. But this world is far, far from our nature. Our nature is more to hunt, not to farm. Although that's not really true either, ancient humans tended to eat fruit and berries rather than meat. Look it up.

The "ancient humans" you talk of were gatherers, but they were also scavengers. That is until they were able to use antlers to use at the end of their spears (allowing them to throw their spears which is a reason they were able to survive over other human-like species.

Offline Super_X

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Re: Get Acquainted with What You Eat
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2007, 11:54:53 pm »
I think that their life's purpose is arguable.

Lions eat meat.
Cows eat grass.
Some animals we both, we happen to be one of those.

But still, eating an egg (even if it isnt the purpose of it) isn't cruelty towards animals
Actually, cows often eat cows, also. The cheapest way to feed cows is to use the parts that aren't even good enough for hotdog meat.

Our nature is that we eat both. But this world is far, far from our nature. Our nature is more to hunt, not to farm. Although that's not really true either, ancient humans tended to eat fruit and berries rather than meat. Look it up.
Different people ate different things.  Isn't the appendix theorized as to being a break down organ for bones that we ingested?

Also, I believe everything is natural.  Human beings are natural and we created things that are within our natural capacity, so I think those things came about by natural means.  Not natural in the sense og God created them, obviously, but natural through evolution.
The appendix is used to break down raw meat using bacteria, well, at least on other animals.