Gates: Vista sales are "amazing"

[Newby]

It'd be the best solution for the average "Joe Sixpack" who can't do custom compiles, or run a setup themselves. Somethat that just works is enough for most people.

It's called "tough love" -- make 'em learn!

And that's why nobody will ever migrate to Linux in such a large number that Microsoft shits its pants.

[Warrior]

It'd be the best solution for the average "Joe Sixpack" who can't do custom compiles, or run a setup themselves. Somethat that just works is enough for most people.

It's called "tough love" -- make 'em learn!

They'd have to learn sooner or later, but it's best to not scare them away with too much at once. Present them with an easy UI to do common things (Packages/Updates/Browsing/IM/Multimedia) and then they will naturally quest to find more knowledge once they see the Beryl screenshots or want to automate things on their kernel.

[MyndFyre]

It'd be the best solution for the average "Joe Sixpack" who can't do custom compiles, or run a setup themselves. Somethat that just works is enough for most people.

It's called "tough love" -- make 'em learn!

They'd have to learn sooner or later, but it's best to not scare them away with too much at once. Present them with an easy UI to do common things (Packages/Updates/Browsing/IM/Multimedia) and then they will naturally quest to find more knowledge once they see the Beryl screenshots or want to automate things on their kernel.

My mom has been using her computer for as long as I have.  I can truly say she's never "naturally quested to find more knowledge."

[Warrior]

It'd be the best solution for the average "Joe Sixpack" who can't do custom compiles, or run a setup themselves. Somethat that just works is enough for most people.

It's called "tough love" -- make 'em learn!

They'd have to learn sooner or later, but it's best to not scare them away with too much at once. Present them with an easy UI to do common things (Packages/Updates/Browsing/IM/Multimedia) and then they will naturally quest to find more knowledge once they see the Beryl screenshots or want to automate things on their kernel.

My mom has been using her computer for as long as I have.  I can truly say she's never "naturally quested to find more knowledge."

Then she probably has no need for it. This is only if you have the want/need to learn more about the OS and what it offers.

If you provide an OS that's simple and easy to use on the outside but built on a complex and extendable framework of system servers and components then people who were apprehensive about switching to Linux due to complexity will be happy. Then, they will slowly over time if they so see the need begin to find ways to tinker with their system.

There needs to be a more presentable center of Linux help (something like the Windows Help in Vista) to offer common questions and act as a portal to solutions for the more complex ones.

[iago]

And that's why nobody will ever migrate to Linux in such a large number that Microsoft shits its pants.

That's what you think, but in the last few months they've made a lot of indications that they are.

[Chavo]

Good thing noone in this thread has a biased view skewing their reaction!

Do you disagree with my assessment? If people were forced to buy a few years' worth of Pepsi with every fridge, do you really think anybody could possibly compete? And the ability to prevent competition = monopoly.

I do disagree with your assessment.  The example is bad because anyone can pick up a can of Pepsi or Coca-Cola and be able to drink it.  Finding an extremely profitable and admittedly monopolistic marketing ploy doesn't make the market unfair or a completely bad thing.

Don't delve too much into that argument, I'm just giving an example of why I don't agree 100% with anyone in this tread and value my sanity far too much to try to battle 4 different OS zealots in one thread :O

[Warrior]

I agree with iago, if Pepsi is packaged with every Fridge people would be forced to drink it. Sure they can go out and buy Coke, but it's less convenient.

It's a perfectly sound analogy.

[iago]

I do disagree with your assessment.  The example is bad because anyone can pick up a can of Pepsi or Coca-Cola and be able to drink it.  Finding an extremely profitable and admittedly monopolistic marketing ploy doesn't make the market unfair or a completely bad thing.

It sounds like your own bias is taking over, rather than common sense. You seem to be making the assumption that not everybody can use an OS that isn't Windows, which is totally false.

The unfortunate truth is that, if somebody made an OS that's superior to Windows and Linux and Mac in every possible way (faster, more configurable, more compatible, looks better, cheaper, etc.), Windows would still do better. Why? Because people are going to stick with what's on the computer that they buy.

[MyndFyre]

The unfortunate truth is that, if somebody made an OS that's superior to Windows and Linux and Mac in every possible way (faster, more configurable, more compatible, looks better, cheaper, etc.), Windows would still do better. Why? Because people are going to stick with what's on the computer that they buy.

If Microsoft made Windows completely free but made everything so different that only a handful of people (relative to now) could provide help for the platform, we'd see a more heterogeneous market.  It's not the preinstallation of Windows that makes it work.  It's the fact that people can get help conveniently that makes Windows popular.

I've tried Linux.  Many, many times.  And I always feel like it's boxing with my computer.

[iago]

I disagree. Perhaps that's true for a small number of people, like perhaps people who know what "Linux" means, but the vast majority of people I know don't even know what "Windows" means. They buy a computer that has something called "Windows", which is apparently necessary, but beyond that it's a mystery. If there was an OS that's better in every way, they wouldn't use it unless somebody else installed it for them.

[MyndFyre]

Come now.  Let's be realistic.

My mom is an above-average computer user because she does a lot of desktop publishing and internet-based work for her job (she's a real estate agent).  Next time she needs a new computer, I tell her I can build one cheaper that will be better.  I put Ubuntu or Fedora Core on it (these have been the easiest distros to use for me).  Let's say all of the hardware works on the first try (this has NEVER been my experience, but I'm a hobbyist, I always have obscure hardware).

I leave my mom.  She tries to do work.  She can't because something's gone wrong.  She calls me.  I don't know what to tell her.  She calls any other computer people she knows.  Chances are, they don't know what to tell her.  She could go to Best Buy and they wouldn't know what to tell her, and then they would tell her to buy and install Windows.

She could go to online forums, assuming she even knows how to phrase the questions she needs to ask or Google, but I'd say that she has about a 90% chance of finding people who are entirely unhelpful who want her to "help herself."  She doesn't care about the FOSS movement, or how "technically superior" the Linux kernel is, or any of that.  She just cares about doing what she needs to do for her job.  Linux simply is not appropriate for it.  To some extent, Mac is better, but it's still tough.  Why?  Because Apple has closed Mac OS X deployment to only Apple hardware, and there are significantly fewer people with real Mac experience to be able to assist.

"Free" software ends up costing my mom more in time, money, and aggravation because she is *forced* to learn the idioms.  She just wants to learn enough to get by.

Until either everyone in the world has the time and wants to learn more than enough to get by, -OR- "free" software begins to get widespread, intuitive support (I guarantee you my mom would never click the "man pages" link on the menu, because she'd think it was an electronic version of Playgirl or something), then Windows is going to have an easy monopoly.

[iago]

You seem to be under the impression that I'm promoting Linux here. I'm not. I'm complaining about Microsoft's monopolistic state. Read what I said again:

The unfortunate truth is that, if somebody made an OS that's superior to Windows and Linux and Mac in every possible way (faster, more configurable, more compatible, looks better, cheaper, etc.), Windows would still do better. Why? Because people are going to stick with what's on the computer that they buy.

Perhaps I should have added "easier, better supported". But I did say "in every possible way".

Linux isn't going to be a big competitor for average computer users. That's fine, I don't care. However, there is no possible way to create, market, and sell a better OS unless you are able to get computer stores to pre-install it, and that's not going to happen. It's almost completely impossible for a competitor to enter the OS market due to Microsoft's position. And that's a very bad thing, even if you like Microsoft software. People who use Windows are just lucky that Linux/Unix/Mac exist just enough to prevent MS from doing whatever they want to. 

[Chavo]

It sounds like your own bias is taking over, rather than common sense. You seem to be making the assumption that not everybody can use an OS that isn't Windows, which is totally false.

'can' and 'can easily and have the desire to do so instead of spending x dollars' are far from the same thing and a perfectly valid assumption that in no way applies only to the OS world

[Blaze]

What if I don't want to put Coke or Pepsi in my fridge, would Pizza be another OS in your ananology?

[chuck]

The reason most people don't use Linux/BSD is because they are used to Windows. They grew up using it, and find they are more familier with it. Me, I grew up using Mac's, thus, I prefere them.

If everyone in this generation grew up using Linux, they'd prefere it over Windows. But, because of the way Windows is being sold with just about every computer you buy today, that won't happen. And the reason Windows is being sold with every computer today is because this generation preferes it.

The only way this will stop is if MS somehow screws up badly, Apple successfully pushs its way into the corporate and home markets, or Linux and BSD get their act together.