Discuss.
THERE BE AN INNA GANGSTA IN ALL OF WE
How can we discuss this when we don't know where the hell you're comming from?
Ok. Let's say there is person #1.
Person #1 is put in a duplicating machine of some sorts that copies exactly every atom in the body. This output is exactly the same as person #1. However, how come he is person #2 and not person #1?
Why can't person #1 control person #2. Why can't person #1 see through person #2's eyes? What makes this person and his exact clone different people?
If every part of his physical being was copied exactly, person #2 would technically be person #1. Person #1 would be able to see through person #2's eyes and control person #2. Hell, he would be person #2.
What is different between these two people? There should be nothing different at all...
...unless there is a non-physical part of person #1 that wasn't copied at all, seeing as how if it was physical it would have been copied.
The question begs: What is that non-physical entity that was not copied, yet exists in person #1 and person #2?
I believe the answer is a soul.
It's called "Person #2's eyes aren't connected to Person #1's brain". Try reading data from iago's hard disks without being connected to him in any way. It has nothing to do with a "spirit" or "soul", they are two disconnected entities. Person #2 is Person #1, but #2. It's like..if I loaded an MeBot bot as R.a.B.B.i.T in op x86, and then a MeBot as R.a.B.B.i.T#2 in Op ASODH, even though I'm using the same bot and the same username, they are seperate programs (even though they are identical), and R.a.B.B.i.T can't see what people in Op ASODH are saying, and R.a.B.B.i.T#2 can't see what people in Op x86 are saying.
Although, everyone has a soul anyways ^^
But if everything is physically copied, what makes person #2 unique from person #1?
Quote from: Newby on August 27, 2005, 02:48:10 AM
But if everything is physically copied, what makes person #2 unique from person #1?
Knowing (s)he's been cloned, and is not the original? That always seems to effect people in movies/tv.
How do you know you are not a clone of somebody?
Can you prove you aren't a clone?
I know it may sound stupid, but they are the exact same people physically. However, what makes them different if every physical aspect of them is identical?
Quote from: OG Trust on August 26, 2005, 11:28:41 PM
THERE BE AN INNA GANGSTA IN ALL OF WE
You are NOT BLACK.
Think what you want.
Quote from: Newby on August 27, 2005, 03:23:56 AM
How do you know you are not a clone of somebody?
Can you prove you aren't a clone?
I know it may sound stupid, but they are the exact same people physically. However, what makes them different if every physical aspect of them is identical?
Yes Newby,
However Physically I could be George Bush with the help of cloning. However mentally we would be different people. Life does not run on a sound track and continuosly repeat it self. What makes us different is the expierences that we encounter in our day to day life. These expierences are what shapes us as men/woman as we get older. Ex. Learning to Ride a bike, Learning to play hockey.
Quote from: Vex3 on August 27, 2005, 08:24:56 AM
Yes Newby,
However Physically I could be George Bush with the help of cloning. However mentally we would be different people. Life does not run on a sound track and continuosly repeat it self. What makes us different is the expierences that we encounter in our day to day life. These expierences are what shapes us as men/woman as we get older. Ex. Learning to Ride a bike, Learning to play hockey.
What are memories? If they are stored in the brain as they claim to be, wouldn't they transfer over?
Quote from: Newby on August 27, 2005, 03:23:56 AM
How do you know you are not a clone of somebody?
Can you prove you aren't a clone?
I know it may sound stupid, but they are the exact same people physically. However, what makes them different if every physical aspect of them is identical?
Suddenly this turned from "There is a non-physical entity (a soul) in all of us!" to "Can you prove you are not a clone?"
Quote from: Newby on August 27, 2005, 09:36:11 AM
Quote from: Vex3 on August 27, 2005, 08:24:56 AM
Yes Newby,
However Physically I could be George Bush with the help of cloning. However mentally we would be different people. Life does not run on a sound track and continuosly repeat it self. What makes us different is the expierences that we encounter in our day to day life. These expierences are what shapes us as men/woman as we get older. Ex. Learning to Ride a bike, Learning to play hockey.
What are memories? If they are stored in the brain as they claim to be, wouldn't they transfer over?
No, because memories are not physical. As you said, everything physical is transfered.
But they are stored in a physical manner. The type of cloning newby is talking about isn't the classic "person reborn again" cloning that we're talking about.
If an exact copy of all elementary particles were made, memories would be transferred as well.
Think about this:
If a person is made up of nothing more than atoms and electricity, then a sufficiently powerful computer could, in theory, predict what every atom and neuron in your body is going to do. If that is true, then free will is an illusion.
Would you rather believe:
a) that we have a non-physical part that is (and always will be) beyond the realm of science
b) that we have no free will, and everything is predetermined
I would personally prefer to believe (a). I don't want to give up the idea that I am in control of my destiny.
Quote from: iago on August 27, 2005, 12:09:01 PM
Think about this:
If a person is made up of nothing more than atoms and electricity, then a sufficiently powerful computer could, in theory, predict what every atom and neuron in your body is going to do. If that is true, then free will is an illusion.
Would you rather believe:
a) that we have a non-physical part that is (and always will be) beyond the realm of science
b) that we have no free will, and everything is predetermined
I would personally prefer to believe (a). I don't want to give up the idea that I am in control of my destiny.
I agree. This is the type of science that is called quantum physics though, I think. I don't know much about it, but a friend I have is deep into it. Basically, quantum physics says that ANYTHING is possible. Also, anybody at any given time is both dead and alive, if you don't see them. It's quite weird stuff.
For instance, the question... "If you don't see a tree fall down, does it make a noise?" This is a quantum physics question. I know what most of you will say. Let's see what you have to answer with.
They are exactly identical, however, when the brain starts up each one would start gathering it's own data.
For example, person A would be standing on the left and person B would be on the right. Now the first thing person A sees is a television, and the first thing that person B sees it a radio. Person A would see person B to his left. Person B would see person A to his right. (Don't get technical with this part, it's the difference in experience that matters) As you can see they have already at this point, gathered different information. The data stored is not the same anymore. It's like with identical twins, they are both the same, but they have different experiences. To further support that, let's say person A and person B has not differed yet. They both go to a party. They would both talk to different people and gather different knowledge/information. And to answer your other question, I agree with rabbit. Person A is not connected to person B physically. So up until you provide life to person B, he will be exactly identical to person A, but person A can't control person B's limbs because person A's brain is not connected to it. Person B's brain is a copy of person A's brain, but it is now a separate entity. It's like backing up your hard drive to another hard drive. The data has been transfered, but afterwards, the connection is lost. The back up hard drive can be stuck into another identical computer, and it'll run. However, when it gets on the internet, it will have a different IP address, will it not? It will recieve attacks from different people than the original computer, and the time that it get information would not be the same a your original computer.
I sold my soul for a blowjob.
@ Ergot: What determines the events that occur in a person's life? If they are the exact same, they will (according to iago's post, if everybody is made up of atoms and neutrons then a computer could predict what we will do) experience the same events due to predestination.
Also @ identical twins, don't their fingerprints differ? In my case, every last atom and neuron is the same. Fingerprints included.
Quote from: c0n on August 27, 2005, 10:41:56 AM
No, because memories are not physical. As you said, everything physical is transfered.
From what I learned in my biology class, memories are bumps and indentations on neurons in the brain, which means that memories ARE physically duplicable. But here is where Newby's question is hazey: are all the atoms duplicated in the same order and position? If not, then Person B would have a completely different set of memories and experiences (or lack thereof).
Quote from: rabbit on August 27, 2005, 04:03:21 PM
But here is where Newby's question is hazey: are all the atoms duplicated in the same order and position? If not, then Person B would have a completely different set of memories and experiences (or lack thereof).
Yes. It's an exact replication of person A. Nothing is different physically!
But mentally. ;P
How does mentally differ from physically?
If they were the same person, and we are predictable, they would hold the same thoughts at the same time.
Quote from: rabbit on August 27, 2005, 04:03:21 PM
Quote from: c0n on August 27, 2005, 10:41:56 AM
No, because memories are not physical. As you said, everything physical is transfered.
From what I learned in my biology class, memories are bumps and indentations on neurons in the brain, which means that memories ARE physically duplicable. But here is where Newby's question is hazey: are all the atoms duplicated in the same order and position? If not, then Person B would have a completely different set of memories and experiences (or lack thereof).
I personally don't believe that the actually bumps on the brain are the memories. I believe memories are not physical, but more metaphysical.
Btw, the answer to my question is: Yes and no. When you don't see something, it could both make a noise and not make a noise at the same time, according to quantum physics. In fact, if you don't see someone, that someone could be both dead and alive at the same time. Quantum physics is weird. If you pour a glass of orange juice, there's a chance that it's not orange juice, but the chance that it isn't orange juice is very low. Quantum physics is very confusing and very DIFFERENT than any other science.
I'm sorry to break this to you, but you don't understand quantum physics at all, you understand the Hollywood version of quantum physics.
Quote from: iago on August 27, 2005, 05:18:21 PM
I'm sorry to break this to you, but you don't understand quantum physics at all, you understand the Hollywood version of quantum physics.
...didn't I tell you that I don't understand it? I said my friend understands some of it.
Quote from: c0n on August 27, 2005, 05:05:06 PM
Quote from: rabbit on August 27, 2005, 04:03:21 PM
Quote from: c0n on August 27, 2005, 10:41:56 AM
No, because memories are not physical. As you said, everything physical is transfered.
From what I learned in my biology class, memories are bumps and indentations on neurons in the brain, which means that memories ARE physically duplicable. But here is where Newby's question is hazey: are all the atoms duplicated in the same order and position? If not, then Person B would have a completely different set of memories and experiences (or lack thereof).
I personally don't believe that the actually bumps on the brain are the memories. I believe memories are not physical, but more metaphysical.
I don't mean the big lumps on the surface, I mean on each individual neuron (a few molecules wide, mind you), a series of bumps and dents create memory, much like a trinary system with vally, smooth, and raised as the 3 values.