There is a crime that is, if attempted, punishable, but comitted, unpushable. What is this crime?
Sodomy.
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 11, 2005, 01:22:28 AM
There is a crime that is, if attempted, punishable, but comitted, unpushable. What is this crime?
Suicide?
Quote from: Sidoh on December 11, 2005, 01:31:13 AM
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 11, 2005, 01:22:28 AM
There is a crime that is, if attempted, punishable, but comitted, unpushable. What is this crime?
Suicide?
Bingo.
:)
Joe, I thought you were religious. Doesn't a lifetime in Hell count as punishment?
You mean an eternity. A "lifetime" is the time spent on earth, which is punishment to Adam for betraying God.
But yeah, suicide garuntees a place in Hell. If I said "earthly punishment", it'd be all to obvious.
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 11, 2005, 02:45:32 AM
You mean an eternity. A "lifetime" is the time spent on earth, which is punishment to Adam for betraying God.
Shuttup :P
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 11, 2005, 02:45:32 AM
But yeah, suicide garuntees a place in Hell. If I said "earthly punishment", it'd be all to obvious.
So you admit your riddle is flawed! GG!
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 02:51:29 AM
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 11, 2005, 02:45:32 AM
You mean an eternity. A "lifetime" is the time spent on earth, which is punishment to Adam for betraying God.
Shuttup :P
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 11, 2005, 02:45:32 AM
But yeah, suicide garuntees a place in Hell. If I said "earthly punishment", it'd be all to obvious.
So you admit your riddle is flawed! GG!
Not only flawed, but painfully obvious. This is a longstanding controversy between states lawmakers here in the US.
I don't really understand how suicide can cause controversy. Its illegal, sure, but what are you going to do if they commit it, throw their corpse in jail?
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 11, 2005, 02:45:32 AM
But yeah, suicide garuntees a place in Hell. If I said "earthly punishment", it'd be all to obvious.
Actually, there are places in the bible that say suicide is forgivable if you're in extreme circumstances of suffering/torture.
"If you attempt to kill yourself we'll shoot!"
Hrm....I've heard that a few times on cops, but most of the time it's like "DROP THE GUN!" and then when he does they tackle him and it's funny cause he's like "Wurz mah guhn?! Bitch git off me er ull sue!". Funny rednecks :P
Quote from: Sidoh on December 11, 2005, 12:42:14 PM
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 11, 2005, 02:45:32 AM
But yeah, suicide garuntees a place in Hell. If I said "earthly punishment", it'd be all to obvious.
Actually, there are places in the bible that say suicide is forgivable if you're in extreme circumstances of suffering/torture.
But for the riddle to be correct, it would have to ALWAYS be forgiveable.
Stupid self-contradictory bible :D
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 01:43:20 PM
But for the riddle to be correct, it would have to ALWAYS be forgiveable.
Stupid self-contradictory bible :D
Haha, the bible is far from logical, true. I don't think it was written to be logical, though... :)
Quote from: Sidoh on December 11, 2005, 02:05:54 PM
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 01:43:20 PM
But for the riddle to be correct, it would have to ALWAYS be forgiveable.
Stupid self-contradictory bible :D
Haha, the bible is far from logical, true. I don't think it was written to be logical, though... :)
Logic is important! I'll believe something based on evidence or logical proof, not on blind faith or somebody else's words. Religion should NOT encourage blind faith, they should encourage free thought and logical proofs for the existance of God (which exist, and are debated)
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 02:48:40 PM
Logic is important! I'll believe something based on evidence or logical proof, not on blind faith or somebody else's words. Religion should NOT encourage blind faith, they should encourage free thought and logical proofs for the existance of God (which exist, and are debated)
I don't think there's anywhere in the bible that discourages finding logical proofs of the existance of God, but eh. Religion is a pretty touchy subject for me.
The Bible is a repository for nearly four thousand years of history. Of course there are going to be discrepancies, loopholes, etc.
If you think about it long enough, believing in one deity just isn't feasible for most people; that's why he's called a supernatural God: he surpasses the boundaries of human comphrension.
I also don't believe that crap about "blind" faith": I have met people who have wandered the earth, searching for an answer to the question. Read The Case for Faith: by Lee Strobel (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0762421037/qid=1134334153/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2172764-7284632?n=507846&s=books&v=glance). It goes into more depth, but "blind faith" is often a misconception of today's society; the meaning of it is just to take a leap of faith in the existence of a god, and then deepen your relationship with your creator.
Quote from: Topaz on December 11, 2005, 03:42:01 PM
The Bible is a repository for nearly four thousand years of history. Of course there are going to be discrepancies, loopholes, etc.
If you think about it long enough, believing in one deity just isn't feasible for most people; that's why he's called a supernatural God: he surpasses the boundaries of human comphrension.
I think it's pretty easy to understand God. We may not be able to understand how or why he exists in the way he does, but we can certainly describe him.
Omnipotent, omniscient, perfect, etc.
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 11, 2005, 04:25:38 AM
I don't really understand how suicide can cause controversy. Its illegal, sure, but what are you going to do if they commit it, throw their corpse in jail?
Mainly about doctors being able to give drugs to terminally ill people / families giving money to the convernment because of what the deceased did.
Quote from: Sidoh on December 11, 2005, 03:22:03 PM
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 02:48:40 PM
Logic is important! I'll believe something based on evidence or logical proof, not on blind faith or somebody else's words. Religion should NOT encourage blind faith, they should encourage free thought and logical proofs for the existance of God (which exist, and are debated)
I don't think there's anywhere in the bible that discourages finding logical proofs of the existance of God, but eh. Religion is a pretty touchy subject for me.
The Bible doesn't, but the church does.
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 04:39:53 PM
The Bible doesn't, but the church does.
What church are you thinking of? Mine doesn't. :)
Quote from: Sidoh on December 11, 2005, 05:00:17 PM
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 04:39:53 PM
The Bible doesn't, but the church does.
What church are you thinking of? Mine doesn't. :)
Your church wants you find out that god doesn't exist, thus killing the need to give money to it?
That seems pretty silly...
Quote from: Blaze on December 11, 2005, 05:02:51 PM
Your church wants you find out that god doesn't exist, thus killing the need to give money to it?
That seems pretty silly...
Your type plain pisses me off, Blaze. Your beliefs are as blind as Christians who believe in God for no reason.
You're assuming that the church convinces us to give it money? There are absolutely
NO statements in my church's doctrine that say you have to give any sort of money to the church. Sure, it's implied that you should, since you're obviously there for reasons of faith. A church isn't funded by the government or any sort of thing, so the only way for it to exist is by the support of its members. Its a lot like organizations like Wikipedia; if the members don't support it, it's not going to be around for long.
Secondly, there are logical proofs that God
DOES exist, which is what iago was saying. I think you need to re-read his post:
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 02:48:40 PM
Logic is important! I'll believe something based on evidence or logical proof, not on blind faith or somebody else's words. Religion should NOT encourage blind faith, they should encourage free thought and logical proofs for the existance of God (which exist, and are debated)
Quote from: Sidoh on December 11, 2005, 05:00:17 PM
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 04:39:53 PM
The Bible doesn't, but the church does.
What church are you thinking of? Mine doesn't. :)
I don't mean a church, I meant The Church. I should have used the capitalized C, sorry.
The Church is concerned with its own power. If it can keep people believing that they hold the key to God and whatnot, people will happily believe it, and the Church maintains its power. If people realize that blind faith isn't the answer (which is pretty unlikely, people are sheep), the Church is going to find itself in a tough place.
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 05:11:06 PM
I don't mean a church, I meant The Church. I should have used the capitalized C, sorry.
The Church is concerned with its own power. If it can keep people believing that they hold the key to God and whatnot, people will happily believe it, and the Church maintains its power. If people realize that blind faith isn't the answer (which is pretty unlikely, people are sheep), the Church is going to find itself in a tough place.
Again, I don't think that the term "The Church" applies to all relgious organizations. I don't think the one I associate myself with is like this in any way. I like to think of myself as a "smart" relgious person. I don't believe something for no reason. I like to see proof... and there is proof out there, as you've already said. :)
Quote from: Sidoh on December 11, 2005, 05:13:53 PM
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 05:11:06 PM
I don't mean a church, I meant The Church. I should have used the capitalized C, sorry.
The Church is concerned with its own power. If it can keep people believing that they hold the key to God and whatnot, people will happily believe it, and the Church maintains its power. If people realize that blind faith isn't the answer (which is pretty unlikely, people are sheep), the Church is going to find itself in a tough place.
Again, I don't think that the term "The Church" applies to all relgious organizations. I don't think the one I associate myself with is like this in any way. I like to think of myself as a "smart" relgious person. I don't believe something for no reason. I like to see proof... and there is proof out there, as you've already said. :)
The Church applies to the Catholic Church, which lives in Italy and reaches out everywhere else.
There is plenty of proof against the Bible. The Bible isn't a factual account, completely, it's full of stories and opinions. I don't think anybody can argue against that, but you can if you want to. The Bible is events as seen from a certain biased perspective, and I wouldn't consider anything found therein to be proof of anything.
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 05:16:08 PM
The Church applies to the Catholic Church, which lives in Italy and reaches out everywhere else.
There is plenty of proof against the Bible. The Bible isn't a factual account, completely, it's full of stories and opinions. I don't think anybody can argue against that, but you can if you want to. The Bible is events as seen from a certain biased perspective, and I wouldn't consider anything found therein to be proof of anything.
I kind of figured that, but I wasn't sure if that's what you meant. :)
Quote from: Sidoh on December 11, 2005, 05:19:31 PM
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 05:16:08 PM
The Church applies to the Catholic Church, which lives in Italy and reaches out everywhere else.
There is plenty of proof against the Bible. The Bible isn't a factual account, completely, it's full of stories and opinions. I don't think anybody can argue against that, but you can if you want to. The Bible is events as seen from a certain biased perspective, and I wouldn't consider anything found therein to be proof of anything.
I kind of figured that, but I wasn't sure if that's what you meant. :)
I don't know who you associate yourself with. The only religious organization I know enough about to complain is the Catholic Church. They're the ones that seem to encourage blind faith and give-us-moneyness
All churches/religions request money as religious buildings/entities/etc. aren't government subsidized.
Furthermore, doesn't the Mormon religion strongly encourage that part of your income (like 10%) go back to the church.
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 05:34:04 PM
I don't know who you associate yourself with. The only religious organization I know enough about to complain is the Catholic Church. They're the ones that seem to encourage blind faith and give-us-moneyness
I'm Lutheran, Mysouri Synod. I think that's the same thing Joe is, actually.
Anyway, the Lutheran church was the one that started the reformation in the 1500's. They broke off of the Catholic Church for a lot of reasons, indulgencies being the main one.
I think the dumbest thing about the Church is that priests can't have sex or get married or masturbate.
Take a guy, make it illegal to have sex and masturbate, and what happens to him? Of course he's going to have issues.
That's just another form of control, by the church -- family => your inheritance goes to your family, not the Church.
Again, I'm talking about Catholicism. I don't know about anything else.
Donating money to your church is fine with me, they have to get money from somewhere. It's the power that worries me, churches shouldn't have a lot of power.
Quote from: iago on December 11, 2005, 05:51:36 PM
I think the dumbest thing about the Church is that priests can't have sex or get married or masturbate.
Take a guy, make it illegal to have sex and masturbate, and what happens to him? Of course he's going to have issues.
Yeah, that is really dumb.
Our church is undominational, but Pastor Craig has two children, Pastor Michael has five, and Pastor Amos has one.
EDIT -
On Thanksgiving at my grandma's house, my mom brought up that I went to youth convention and I'm really involved with church and stuff, and it ended up to be a long conversation about why nobody (except me) in my family goes to church. From that, it went to a Catholic flamefest, and the eventual reason was they were tired of getting "You haven't given any money. You owe us $786.32. Please bring this next Sunday." bills in the mail. =p
EDIT -
Pastor Craig's children are two and three, and Pastor Amos's daughter is 2, I believe. Three (or four?) of Pastor Michael's children are high school graduates already, and the youngest (who happens to be my good friend Marianne!) is a junior at my high school.
Buddhist monks seem pretty chill and they are abstinant..
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 12, 2005, 07:55:09 AM
Our church is undominational, but Pastor Craig has two children, Pastor Michael has five, and Pastor Amos has one.
I think it's funny how the Catholic Church doesn't really follow the Bible.
Quote from: 1 Tim 3:1-5
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)
It talks specifically about how someone who is to be a leader should know how to take care of his kids and family business, and that without such experience, how can someone know how to take care of the church?
Now I don't mean that it should be followed in the strictest of manners (many of our youth pastors in Arizona don't have kids of their own yet), but it doesn't say that you CAN'T have kids. They're man-made rules, not God's.
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 11, 2005, 02:45:32 AM
But yeah, suicide garuntees a place in Hell. If I said "earthly punishment", it'd be all to obvious.
Also, I disagree with this assessment. I don't think any of us can know what "guarantess" us a place in hell, but God said there's only one unforgiveable sin, and that's blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Suicide is a sin, no doubt, but what did Jesus come to die for anyway? :P
Quote from: MyndFyrex86] link=topic=4104.msg44459#msg44459 date=1134435316]
I think it's funny how the Catholic Church doesn't really follow the Bible.
[....]
They're man-made rules, not God's.
I fully agree. That's why I tend to be opposed to "The Church", or even "Religion" (by which I mean structured religion, not just general belief), because they tend to make rules like that.
One thing I forgot, not allowing the Preists to get married would make them go against God's idea of "ye shall be fruitful and multiply", unless of course they have premarital sex, which is just as bad (or worse?).
I think that suicide should be unforgiveable, because..
1) If theres something in your life thats worth killing yourself over, just ask God to help you.
2) Comitting suicide, knowing you'll go to heaven, is trying to evade the punishment of the first sin, which is pretty much not doing what God wants, so blaspheming.
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 15, 2005, 03:30:59 AM
I think that suicide should be unforgiveable, because..
1) If theres something in your life thats worth killing yourself over, just ask God to help you.
2) Comitting suicide, knowing you'll go to heaven, is trying to evade the punishment of the first sin, which is pretty much not doing what God wants, so blaspheming.
It doesn't matter what you think or your logic tells you; it's the law layed out for you in the bible that tells you what is right and wrong.
There are passages in the bible about suicide already, anyway. They say it's unforgiveable unless you're in a position of extreme agony/torture/etc.
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 15, 2005, 03:30:59 AM
1) If theres something in your life thats worth killing yourself over, just ask God to help you.
I've never heard of God coming down and helping somebody who is being tortured/suffering.. Maybe if God was more helpful..? :)
QuoteI've never heard of God coming down and helping somebody who is being tortured/suffering
Hence, you are allowed to commit suicide when you're being tortured/suffering.
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 17, 2005, 02:53:17 AM
Hence, you are allowed to commit suicide when you're being tortured/suffering.
You said that it was unforgivable. :P
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 11, 2005, 01:45:53 AM
Quote from: Sidoh on December 11, 2005, 01:31:13 AM
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 11, 2005, 01:22:28 AM
There is a crime that is, if attempted, punishable, but comitted, unpushable. What is this crime?
Suicide?
Bingo.
Let's make an extremely unlikely situation. You are kidnapped and left locked in a basement to starve to death after being badly bashed up. You find a gun with a bullet in it. Would suicide (head/heart shot with the gun) be a crime?
And even if for some reason you do believe it is a crime, would the 'death penalty' that comes along with suicide be a feasible punishment for it?[EDIT] Nevermind the above, just read the posts on this page which I somehow missed before.
Also one other thing I though of ages ago and never fiqured out. Say you became a christian, then purposely commited some crime that put you up for the death penalty. During the time you waited to be killed, if you were to forgive all your sins. Would that like be a shortcut to heaven?
Quote from: Joe[e2] on December 17, 2005, 02:53:17 AM
QuoteI've never heard of God coming down and helping somebody who is being tortured/suffering
Hence, you are allowed to commit suicide when you're being tortured/suffering.
As the Bible states, God is all-seeing and knowing. I'm quite sure he would make the proper judgement concerning your situation ;)
However, I have never read a passage saying anything along the lines of what Joe's just posted. Give some proof.
Ask MyndFyre.
Quote from: Topaz on December 17, 2005, 02:20:06 PM
As the Bible states, God is all-seeing and knowing. I'm quite sure he would make the proper judgement concerning your situation ;)
However, I have never read a passage saying anything along the lines of what Joe's just posted. Give some proof.
I still believe it's forgivable under certain circumstances, but I do agree that it should be treated as "unforgivable" in most cases. You're basically taking things into your own hands and not leaving decisions that cannot be made by man up to God. And since sins can only be forgiven if you're repentant, suicide can't really be forgiven; it's hard to repent when you're dead. ;)
Here (http://www.christianitytoday.com/tc/2003/002/15.18.html)'s a decent article on the issue.