Clan x86
General Forums => Gaming => Blizzard, WoW and Bots => Topic started by: Joe on October 11, 2005, 05:23:52 pm
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http://www.torrentspy.com/article.asp?id=3729
Switch to cedega and linux or ph33r.
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Let's see some proof and an official statement from Blizzard, please. Oh, and reversing something (against EULA) that is supposed to verify your compliancy with the EULA is not a good idea, and can be sticky when reporting results scientifically.
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Who said this guy didn't have some other spyware, and he just blamed it on WoW?
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I'm pretty sure Warden does do that, but go through your contact list? Thats not true.
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I'm pretty sure Warden does do that, but go through your contact list? Thats not true.
Some people like to exaggurate to prove a point.
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I'm pretty sure Warden does do that, but go through your contact list? Thats not true.
He's saying it goes through all open processes and scans for text which might give it away as being a hack. If you had a list of emails open, or a website with your credit card information entered (why would you do this, then play WoW with it still open?) it would grab your info.
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Quik, heres a situation. You get raped by horde in the middle of nowhere, die, release spirit, spirit heal, and hearthstone. You have 10 minutes to kill, so you work on a top-secret programming project like JavaOp2 (BAD EXAMPLE, LIVE WITH IT <3).
Blizzard now has your source code.
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But it doesn't do that... it scans the process names, thats it.
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Let's see some proof and an official statement from Blizzard, please. Oh, and reversing something (against EULA) that is supposed to verify your compliancy with the EULA is not a good idea, and can be sticky when reporting results scientifically.
There are two definitions pertaining to what reverse engineering is:
Reverse engineering (RE) is the process of taking something (a device, an electrical component, a software program, etc.) apart and analyzing its workings in detail, usually with the intention to construct a new device or program that does the same thing without actually copying anything from the original. The verb form is to reverse-engineer, spelled with a hyphen.
This, is personally the definition I agree with. Then, there is another definition which is quite diffrent. It essentially states:
The process of analyzing a program.
No specifics. None. So, some guy finds a flaw in your program and is about to release it? Threaten to sue for reverse engineering your product. This second definition leave a lot of room for interpretation, which is bad in law.
EULA's in general have gotten out of control. They can state just about anything in their EULA, and it becomes a binding contract. Let's say you go all out and buy Microsoft XP, is there a complete readout of the EULA before you buy it at the store? No. On the box? No. After you've opened it? Possibly. After you've inserted the CD and possibly already installed it? Yes.
Now, by the time you've opened the box and read the EULA, you're already out $150. With no chance of getting it back at a store. It's either Accept or Disagree. What do you do? Accept, obviously. You really don't have much of a choice, by the time you read it, you've already opened the box.
But it doesn't do that... it scans the process names, thats it.
It's still an invasion of privacy, which is wrong.
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How do you suggest they stop hacks then?
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How do you suggest they stop hacks then?
I'm not here to suggest how they stop hacks, there is a bigger issue here: Privacy.
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IIRC, it didn't specifically say that it sent the list to blizzard, it said something along the lines of the "result". Maybe it checks for a list of process names, such as "wowhack.exe", and if it finds that, then it sends it to blizzard. To avoid the obvious problem of EXE name changing, perhaps it will checksum it?
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The data is hashed and compared against a list. It's never read by human eyes.
Stop your paranoid whining.
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The data is hashed and compared against a list. It's never read by human eyes.
Stop your paranoid whining.
What if they flag people who have "WoW is gay" open, and ban them because they have said window open? My point is, computer or not, they have no right to read what windows I have opened.
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I really don't care to be honest. I don't cheat on WoW and I'm not about to care that they know I'm looking at porn. :)
( Kidding ).
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I'm not here to suggest how they stop hacks, there is a bigger issue here: Privacy.
Don't like their invasion of your privacy? Then don't buy their product. You're paying for their product, every month. It's clear to you how they deliver it, and they've stated explicitly that they're out to stop cheaters. If you don't like what they're doing, stop paying for their product. That's how capitalism works.
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I'm not here to suggest how they stop hacks, there is a bigger issue here: Privacy.
Don't like their invasion of your privacy? Then don't buy their product. You're paying for their product, every month. It's clear to you how they deliver it, and they've stated explicitly that they're out to stop cheaters. If you don't like what they're doing, stop paying for their product. That's how capitalism works.
I was waiting for someone to say this.
I don't believe you read my earlier post. Here, I'll quote myself:
EULA's in general have gotten out of control. They can state just about anything in their EULA, and it becomes a binding contract. Let's say you go all out and buy Microsoft XP, is there a complete readout of the EULA before you buy it at the store? No. On the box? No. After you've opened it? Possibly. After you've inserted the CD and possibly already installed it? Yes.
Now, by the time you've opened the box and read the EULA, you're already out $150. With no chance of getting it back at a store. It's either Accept or Disagree. What do you do? Accept, obviously. You really don't have much of a choice, by the time you read it, you've already opened the box.
The fact is, if enough people did get pissed off, Blizzard wouldn't have much choice but to remove Warden from WoW. I'll sit tight and hopefully just that will happen.
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Blizzard wouldn't remove Warden from WoW, they would just optimize it, or replace it with some better system.
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Blizzard wouldn't remove Warden from WoW, they would just optimize it, or replace it with some better system.
Sure they would.
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The data is hashed and compared against a list. It's never read by human eyes.
Stop your paranoid whining.
What if they flag people who have "WoW is gay" open, and ban them because they have said window open? My point is, computer or not, they have no right to read what windows I have opened.
I seriously doubt that, in their list of windows that are bad, there is a hashing even remotely similar to the result of the hash of "WoW is gay"...
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The data is hashed and compared against a list. It's never read by human eyes.
Stop your paranoid whining.
What if they flag people who have "WoW is gay" open, and ban them because they have said window open? My point is, computer or not, they have no right to read what windows I have opened.
I highly doubt they'll ban you for that. They probably for already known malicious programs.
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The data is hashed and compared against a list. It's never read by human eyes.
Stop your paranoid whining.
What if they flag people who have "WoW is gay" open, and ban them because they have said window open? My point is, computer or not, they have no right to read what windows I have opened.
To tell you the truth, I could care less if they see what I'm running. When I'm set back up, I'll have WoW running in windows, along with Windows itself, and perhaps Firefox and Gaim. gaim.exe, wow.exe, svchost.exe, explorer.exe, firefox.exe. Oh em gee blizzard r spying on mez0rz! Wait.. kagjkdlksgjlsdkjglksgj OMG BLIZZARD HAS MY INFO (its hashed =p).
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The fact is, if enough people did get pissed off, Blizzard wouldn't have much choice but to remove Warden from WoW. I'll sit tight and hopefully just that will happen.
No, the fact isn't that. The only way they'd change is if enough people got pissed off and quit WoW citing the reason that Warden is invading their privacy before they took Warden from WoW. It won't happen.
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The fact is, if enough people did get pissed off, Blizzard wouldn't have much choice but to remove Warden from WoW. I'll sit tight and hopefully just that will happen.
No, the fact isn't that. The only way they'd change is if enough people got pissed off and quit WoW citing the reason that Warden is invading their privacy before they took Warden from WoW. It won't happen.
They may not lose many current customers, but people who read this will quite possibly not buy WoW because of Warden, and only Warden.
They have the compacity to invade my privacy. Even though I doubt they would, I still dislike that they're doing so. I mean, really, do you like the fact that you're being monitored?
I seriously doubt that, in their list of windows that are bad, there is a hashing even remotely similar to the result of the hash of "WoW is gay"...
It was an example as to the compacity for their program to do something similar.
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It only checks up on you when your playing it, so don't play it when you have all your illegal stuff up.
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You all seem to be missing TSE's point, how does buying their game give them the right to monitor your computer, and I think it's wrong, they shouldn't have the right to do it, and I think eventually, when the general population is more aware of what it does, they will essentially boycott WoW.
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You signed your rights away in the EULA.
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You signed your rights away in the EULA.
Rights I frankly don't give a shit about.
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I'm sure there is some privacy act which it interferes with, or can be interpreted to interfere with.
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I'm sure there is some privacy act which it interferes with, or can be interpreted to interfere with.
I personally think it's a good thing. There were serious problems with people using hacks for WoW that gave them an extreme advantage.
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Monitoring processes that have an impact on WoW, sure, but monitoring the computer to try and see if they have anything that could possibly have an impact is wrong, what if you had some random program running, and they banned your key because they thought it may be some type of hack. :-\
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I don't think they'd be that assumptious.
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Just as an example, and I don't know much about the Warden, but say you were on WoW, and someone told you to look at a site, it had a picture of a maphack or something, the name of the picture:
Internet Explorer - wowmh.jpg
Do you think they would get you because of that? Is it an automated program, or do people watch over the warden and verify everything it detects?
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Just as an example, and I don't know much about the Warden, but say you were on WoW, and someone told you to look at a site, it had a picture of a maphack or something, the name of the picture:
Internet Explorer - wowmh.jpg
Do you think they would get you because of that? Is it an automated program, or do people watch over the warden and verify everything it detects?
The article was a little exaggerated, it won't ban you because of the name of a window title, IIRC. It checks the code to see what it does, and hashes some of it and checks it against a database of 'malicious hack' hashings.
The point is that it's going through everything open on your computer to find hacks, and not caring about what it's going through.
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I have found that the majority of the people that feel bad about this, have this in common:
- Do not play WoW
- Were ending there subscription anyway
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TSE, seriously, do you even know how hacks work? You're not understanding.
(A) You play the game everyday, if you don't like what it's doing, don't play it, it's their program, their software, their way of catching programs that may give the user an advantage over others. If you don't like how it works, don't play the game and expect them to change it for your "privacy".
(B) It scans the programs running for certain strings, it doesn't pay attention to the name of the window, because that would give them NO information on what it actually does, it pays no attention to what you're running, it simply scans them (as I said before) for certain malicious strings that interact with WoW.
(C) This is being blown way out of proportion, some of you guys obviously don't understand what it's doing exactly, and are just looking at it as "bad".
Don't like it? Don't get the game, should have done your research. Get some other less-fun MMO and play that for a month and get bored.
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TSE, seriously, do you even know how hacks work? You're not understanding.
I sent you an in-game mail pertaining to this, seeing as you never mentioned it again I'll assume this arguement is over.
(A) You play the game everyday, if you don't like what it's doing, don't play it, it's their program, their software, their way of catching programs that may give the user an advantage over others. If you don't like how it works, don't play the game and expect them to change it for your "privacy".
I guess you didin't read what I said about how software EULA's are completely out of control.
(B) It scans the programs running for certain strings, it doesn't pay attention to the name of the window, because that would give them NO information on what it actually does, it pays no attention to what you're running, it simply scans them (as I said before) for certain malicious strings that interact with WoW.
No, warden scans open process names and acts accordingly.
(C) This is being blown way out of proportion, some of you guys obviously don't understand what it's doing exactly, and are just looking at it as "bad".
I can see how I blew it out of proportion, but, that really doesn't change much.
Don't like it? Don't get the game, should have done your research. Get some other less-fun MMO and play that for a month and get bored.
Again, you didin't read my EULA bit. By the time you've bought the game and opened it, you're then given the EULA. This is done purposefully. It's not as if you can return an open game.
Now, you may argue that "well, you should have looked at their website". All I can say to that, is some people don't have access to an internet connection (by the way, I'm talking about all software, not just WoW).
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Either WoW will be loaded with hackers and be extremely unfair, or have them scan your processes for malicious scripts. Since they chose the latter, you have the choice not to even play the game. I'm actually glad they did this, it levels the game out, and it's not like they're actually spying on us like said.
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Either WoW will be loaded with hackers and be extremely unfair, or have them scan your processes for malicious scripts. Since they chose the latter, you have the choice not to even play the game. I'm actually glad they did this, it levels the game out, and it's not like they're actually spying on us like said.
I think the point is that they have the capability (and some may say the means) to do so.
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In that case, any program you install has the capability of doing something malicious without you knowing, they just have to implement it. WoW has not implemented anything that would allow them to spy on you.
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EULA's may, or may not be out of control. Its up to the Software Company to decide what there software does because it is THERE software, not yours. If you don't like the way they run the game, as stated before, Don't play it.
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EULA's may, or may not be out of control. Its up to the Software Company to decide what there software does because it is THERE software, not yours.
Quite so. However, there are no laws governing EULA's. Even so, courts treat them as binding contracts. They could write just about anything in their EULA's and it would be a legally binding contract. This, and this reason alone, is the reason why EULA's can't be taken seriously.
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EULA's may, or may not be out of control. Its up to the Software Company to decide what there software does because it is THERE software, not yours.
Quite so. However, there are no laws governing EULA's. Even so, courts treat them as binding contracts. They could write just about anything in their EULA's and it would be a legally binding contract. This, and this reason alone, is the reason why EULA's can't be taken seriously.
Are you sure about that? I remember hearing somewhere that you have to patent your EULA or something like that before it's a legal contract.
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I sent you an in-game mail pertaining to this, seeing as you never mentioned it again I'll assume this arguement is over.
I don't read most in-game mail because the font Blizzard chose for it is extremely ugly.
I guess you didin't read what I said about how software EULA's are completely out of control.
Then you should just not buy any online games then, considering there's so "out of control", since that's what you're going to have to expect in any game these days.
No, warden scans open process names and acts accordingly.
Show me where Blizzard says this is exactly what Warden does, you're basing your beleifs on third-party reports, therefore not 100% reliable. Unless you somehow managed to hex the client (which I know you didn't because I know you can't), don't start throwing these random remarks out as an excuse.
I can see how I blew it out of proportion, but, that really doesn't change much.
The sky's falling.
Again, you didin't read my EULA bit. By the time you've bought the game and opened it, you're then given the EULA. This is done purposefully. It's not as if you can return an open game.
Wal-Mart.
Now, you may argue that "well, you should have looked at their website". All I can say to that, is some people don't have access to an internet connection (by the way, I'm talking about all software, not just WoW).
Then I'd suggest you don't buy online games.
EULA's may, or may not be out of control. Its up to the Software Company to decide what there software does because it is THERE software, not yours.
Quite so. However, there are no laws governing EULA's. Even so, courts treat them as binding contracts. They could write just about anything in their EULA's and it would be a legally binding contract. This, and this reason alone, is the reason why EULA's can't be taken seriously.
Wrong, EULA's can't say they have all rights to your mother and/or house, and so on and so forth, MM's last post is exactly what happens.
You obviously aren't knowelgable on how EULA's work, let alone the Warden.
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The fact is, if enough people did get pissed off, Blizzard wouldn't have much choice but to remove Warden from WoW. I'll sit tight and hopefully just that will happen.
No, the fact isn't that. The only way they'd change is if enough people got pissed off and quit WoW citing the reason that Warden is invading their privacy before they took Warden from WoW. It won't happen.
They may not lose many current customers, but people who read this will quite possibly not buy WoW because of Warden, and only Warden.
They have the compacity to invade my privacy. Even though I doubt they would, I still dislike that they're doing so. I mean, really, do you like the fact that you're being monitored?
I seriously doubt that, in their list of windows that are bad, there is a hashing even remotely similar to the result of the hash of "WoW is gay"...
It was an example as to the compacity for their program to do something similar.
If newby is correct, they can't monitor you. Your tasks are hashed and compared to a hashed list (which nobody ever said was remote, but probably is). Now, say you're running processXXX.exe, and its an identified hack. You hash it to say, AABBCED, and send it. AABBCED is in the list. Your hacking. You're also running processXXY.exe. You hash it to AABBCEE and send it. Its not in the list, and they have no clue what it is.
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The fact is, if enough people did get pissed off, Blizzard wouldn't have much choice but to remove Warden from WoW. I'll sit tight and hopefully just that will happen.
No, the fact isn't that. The only way they'd change is if enough people got pissed off and quit WoW citing the reason that Warden is invading their privacy before they took Warden from WoW. It won't happen.
They may not lose many current customers, but people who read this will quite possibly not buy WoW because of Warden, and only Warden.
They have the compacity to invade my privacy. Even though I doubt they would, I still dislike that they're doing so. I mean, really, do you like the fact that you're being monitored?
I seriously doubt that, in their list of windows that are bad, there is a hashing even remotely similar to the result of the hash of "WoW is gay"...
It was an example as to the compacity for their program to do something similar.
If newby is correct, they can't monitor you. Your tasks are hashed and compared to a hashed list (which nobody ever said was remote, but probably is). Now, say you're running processXXX.exe, and its an identified hack. You hash it to say, AABBCED, and send it. AABBCED is in the list. Your hacking. You're also running processXXY.exe. You hash it to AABBCEE and send it. Its not in the list, and they have no clue what it is.
Exactly.
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So is WoW technically considerd spyware or not? Someone wanna elaborate?
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I don't read most in-game mail because the font Blizzard chose for it is extremely ugly.
Okay, I'll post it here then.
A third party program is any file or program that is not a part of the World of Warcraft software, but is used to gain an advantage in the game, such as increasing your movement speed or teleporting from one place to another beyond what is allowed by game design. It also includes any programs that obtain information from the game that is not normally available to the regular player or that transmit or modify any of the game files.
Then you should just not buy any online games then, considering there's so "out of control", since that's what you're going to have to expect in any game these days.
People can't just stop buying programs, think of the dire consequences. There needs to be change, that's all I'm saying. Your black & white world isin't so black and white.
No, warden scans open process names and acts accordingly.
Why would Blizzard divulge what their anti-hacker software does? That wouldn't be very prudent.
The sky's falling.
Oh shit.
Wal-Mart.
Please direct me to the EULA isle.
Wrong, EULA's can't say they have all rights to your mother and/or house, and so on and so forth, MM's last post is exactly what happens.
Here's an example of an out of control EULA:
EULAs can often contain very restrictive terms that are often surprising. For example, the version 7 of a popular image-viewing application ACDSee prohibits its use for viewing pornographic materials in the EULA (section 3.4 - Use Restrictions).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EULA
If newby is correct, they can't monitor you. Your tasks are hashed and compared to a hashed list (which nobody ever said was remote, but probably is). Now, say you're running processXXX.exe, and its an identified hack. You hash it to say, AABBCED, and send it. AABBCED is in the list. Your hacking. You're also running processXXY.exe. You hash it to AABBCEE and send it. Its not in the list, and they have no clue what it is.
Exactly. Hash or not, it's still reading your open processes and compareing them to a list of flagged processes.
So is WoW technically considerd spyware or not? Someone wanna elaborate?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spyware
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That doesn't answer my question. Is WoW technically spyware or not, I wouldnt know how to compare it and tell myself.
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That doesn't answer my question. Is WoW technically spyware or not, I wouldnt know how to compare it and tell myself.
I personally don't think so.
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That doesn't answer my question. Is WoW technically spyware or not, I wouldnt know how to compare it and tell myself.
I personally don't think so.
I agree, its just a hack detector. It never sends info about your usage of programs, other then a hash of them, which would be very hard to find which program it was, and impossible to check what was it was doing.
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That doesn't answer my question. Is WoW technically spyware or not, I wouldnt know how to compare it and tell myself.
I personally don't think so.
I agree, its just a hack detector. It never sends info about your usage of programs, other then a hash of them, which would be very hard to find which program it was, and impossible to check what was it was doing.
It has the compacity to do so, which is why it's wrong.
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I don't understand...
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WoW doesn't have any compactity to grab your personal information, it's scanning processes, spyware on the other hand watches what sites you view, what (possibly) you download, etc. Does Warden watch what sites you visit and what you download? No.
By definition it's not even spyware, for fucks sake TSE.
(http://dark-wire.net/screenor/My%20Work/OMFGPROSS.jpg)
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Owner? Eww, store-assembled computer!
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Personally, I don't think that WoW is spyware. If you don't like the way this is done, inject a DLL into WoW adding a void to send the warden results packet with WoW.exe and explorer.exe open, and overwrite the beginning of the warden checker to far jump to the injected void.
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Personally, I don't think that WoW is spyware. If you don't like the way this is done, inject a DLL into WoW adding a void to send the warden results packet with WoW.exe and explorer.exe open, and overwrite the beginning of the warden checker to far jump to the injected void.
I'm going to stab you with a spoon.
Oh wait, there is no spoon.
I'll use a spork instead.
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Personally, I don't think that WoW is spyware. If you don't like the way this is done, inject a DLL into WoW adding a void to send the warden results packet with WoW.exe and explorer.exe open, and overwrite the beginning of the warden checker to far jump to the injected void.
And when Blizzardrealizes you're modifying their program, ggyou!
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Owner? Eww, store-assembled computer!
LOLOLOLOL go to hell. -_-
:P
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Personally, I don't think that WoW is spyware. If you don't like the way this is done, inject a DLL into WoW adding a void to send the warden results packet with WoW.exe and explorer.exe open, and overwrite the beginning of the warden checker to far jump to the injected void.
If you're willing to do something that sevre, why not just make your own hack? You can bet it won't be in their database.
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Personally, I don't think that WoW is spyware. If you don't like the way this is done, inject a DLL into WoW adding a void to send the warden results packet with WoW.exe and explorer.exe open, and overwrite the beginning of the warden checker to far jump to the injected void.
If you're willing to do something that sevre, why not just make your own hack? You can bet it won't be in their database.
I'm not totally sure on this, because I've never done either, but overwriting a few bytes and injecting a void should be a lot easier than writing your own hack.
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People can't just stop buying programs, think of the dire consequences. There needs to be change, that's all I'm saying. Your black & white world isin't so black and white.
Well for 1.) they can CERTAINLY stop buying games. There are no business-critical games in the world. Second, yes, they can stop buying software. What do you think the big deal is around Linux, StarOffice/OpenOffice, The GIMP, and open-source software? If you don't like the way the company or entity is handling its software you can choose to go somewhere else. But if you choose to stick with a particular vendor, you're making a choice to give up particular rights.
EULAs may or may not be out of control. Personally, I think they're good for business. I think some EULAs have fundamental errors, such as prohibition of the right to reverse-engineer, or the right to create a competing product (vis-a-vis Microsoft Access with SQL Server). So you know what I do? If I want to create a competing product to go against Access, I'll use MySQL.
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WoW doesn't have any compactity to grab your personal information, it's scanning processes, spyware on the other hand watches what sites you view, what (possibly) you download, etc. Does Warden watch what sites you visit and what you download? No.
By definition it's not even spyware, for fucks sake TSE.
I never called it spyware. I called it an invasion of privacy. Yes, it does have the compacity to grab personal information. I consider my computer quite personal.
Well for 1.) they can CERTAINLY stop buying games. There are no business-critical games in the world.
Well, no shit.
Second, yes, they can stop buying software.
Not at a cost. Switching an entire buisness' OS can be quite costly (as I'm sure you know).
EULAs may or may not be out of control. Personally, I think they're good for business.
They're not just good, parts of them are essential. Sadly some companys feel the need to inject things that don't need to be there into their agreements.
I think some EULAs have fundamental errors, such as prohibition of the right to reverse-engineer, or the right to create a competing product (vis-a-vis Microsoft Access with SQL Server). So you know what I do? If I want to create a competing product to go against Access, I'll use MySQL.
You could do that, but you'd be in violation of their EULA.
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I never called it spyware. I called it an invasion of privacy. Yes, it does have the compacity to grab personal information. I consider my computer quite personal.
Refer to the topic's title, dolt. Let alone your topic you made saying this.
Every point you've made has been shot down, and yet you're still playing the game, and still arguing it's "spyware", and "invasion of privacy", so quit, $40 wont kill you.
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I never called it spyware. I called it an invasion of privacy. Yes, it does have the compacity to grab personal information. I consider my computer quite personal.
Refer to the topic's title, dolt. Let alone your topic you made saying this.
I didn't make this topic, nor did I make a topic calling it spyware.
Every point you've made has been shot down,
No. They haven't. I know this because you haven't answered every single one of my points.
and yet you're still playing the game,
Yes, and it's quite fun.
and still arguing it's "spyware",
Again, I never said it was spyware.
so quit, $40 wont kill you.
If we quit whenever something wasen't going our way we wouldn't be where we are now.