Author Topic: Impenetrable "gun free zone" penetrated  (Read 6589 times)

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Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Impenetrable "gun free zone" penetrated
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2008, 05:10:59 pm »
My argument is that guns should be allowed for self defense.  The apparent argument of the other side is that guns are harmful/
Err, I thought your argument was that gun-free zones are bad because people can still bring guns in there? You seem to have changed your argument..

No, just that signs don't stop guns.  Gun free zones aren't bad in theory, just in practice they don't work.

iago: Care to comment on homicide in the great country of Canada? Isn't firearm ownership small there?
My understanding is that handguns are hard to get there.  But gun murders still happen.

In 1970s? the UK banned handguns straight out.  Handgun crime has gone up a lot since then.

Offline iago

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Re: Impenetrable "gun free zone" penetrated
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2008, 05:13:04 pm »
iago: Care to comment on homicide in the great country of Canada? Isn't firearm ownership small there?
We have stabbings and beatings and even a recent beheading, and we're the murder capital of the country (most murders per capita for the last few years). But, I can't recall any gun violence.

So yeah, not many (any?) gun homocides here.

Also, a lot of people have guns for hunting and sport and stuff, those are legal if they're registered. But you aren't allowed to carry them around with you.

Offline Blaze

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Re: Impenetrable "gun free zone" penetrated
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2008, 07:12:51 pm »
A lot of the gun-related murders in Canada happen in Toronto, and almost 100% of that is gang to gang related violence.  Gangs that started in the States, at that.  Most of the other gun related murders happen in the rural areas of Canada.
And like a fool I believed myself, and thought I was somebody else...

Offline Super_X

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Re: Impenetrable "gun free zone" penetrated
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2008, 07:31:23 pm »
I didn't look for any sources, but I've always heard that if you keep a weapon to protect yourself, it's usually that weapon that ends up hurting you. I've mostly heard that in reference to break-ins, but it is still valid, if it's a fact.

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Impenetrable "gun free zone" penetrated
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2008, 12:36:09 pm »
I didn't look for any sources, but I've always heard that if you keep a weapon to protect yourself, it's usually that weapon that ends up hurting you. I've mostly heard that in reference to break-ins, but it is still valid, if it's a fact.

"Can owning a gun really triple the owner's chances of being murdered?" - Gary Kleck (PhD in sociology at U Illinois @ Urbana, Professor of criminology @ FSU)
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Using a case-control design comparing homicide victims with matched nonvictims, Kellermann et al. (1993) concluded that keeping a gun in one's home increased the risk of being murdered by a factor of 2.7. The authors' underlying assumption was that a significant elevation in homicide risk derived from the risk of being murdered with a gun kept in the victim's home. This article shows that homicides are rarely committed with guns belonging to members of the victim's home and that such killings could be responsible for no more than a 2.4% increase in the relative risk of being murdered. Guns in one's own home have little to do with homicide risk. Scholars need to attend more closely to the mechanisms by which an alleged causal effect is supposed to operate and to consider their plausibility before concluding that an association reflects a causal effect. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR]

Defensive carrying has more benefits than risks.

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Impenetrable "gun free zone" penetrated
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2008, 02:14:40 pm »
Defensive carrying has more benefits than risks.

The quote you gave dispels the argument that murders are often committed with the victim's own weapons.  It does not address the claim you are making by any means.

Offline CrAz3D

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Re: Impenetrable "gun free zone" penetrated
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2008, 04:33:07 pm »
Defensive carrying has more benefits than risks.

The quote you gave dispels the argument that murders are often committed with the victim's own weapons.  It does not address the claim you are making by any means.

Ooops, that was about the home thing.


This is about general carrying:

title of article: Carrying guns for protection: results from the National Self-Defense Survey

Quote
Consistent with this hypothesis, Kleck and Patterson (1993:269) found that cities with higher gun prevalence (and presumably higher gun-carrying rates) had lower rates of robbery, a crime typically committed in public places. This association was not significant for total and gun robberies but was significant for nongun robberies. This fits closely with the expectation that robbers lacking guns themselves would be the ones most likely to be deterred by the prospect of victims with guns. Deterring these robbers is especially important in fight of the fact that prior research has consistently indicated that unarmed robbers are more likely to injure victims than are armed robbers
Basically, unarmed robbers are more likely to hurt you and unarmed robbers are deterred by gun carrying citizens

Quote
Likewise, in a comprehensive pooled cross-sections time series analysis of virtually all 3,141 U.S. counties, Lott and Mustard (1997) found that robbery rates, as well as homicide (both with and without guns), rape, and aggravated assaults, declined after states passed laws making it easier for noncriminals to obtain carry permits. They interpreted the results as indicating that allowing more citizens to legally carry guns reduced rates of crimes involving direct offender-victim contact by raising robbers' perception of risk from armed victims. Although it is debatable how much of this pattern reflected causal effects of new laws (Kleck 1997, chap. 6), the results strongly undercut the conclusions of McDowall, Loftin, and Wiersema (1995), based on univariate (or bivariate) analyses of homicide trends in just seven nonrandomly selected counties (clustered into five areas), that such laws increase gun homicides, supposedly because they indirectly stimulate offender gun carrying (see Britt, Kleck, and Bordua 1996 for a critique of interrupted time series evaluations of legal interventions).
While allowing gun possession doesnt necessitate decrease in crime, there is a strong correlation.

Quote
It is a mistake to think of gun carrying as something done largely for criminal purposes, except in the definitional sense that most concealed carrying without a permit is itself a crime. As will be documented, most nonrecreational carrying is done for noncriminal purposes of self-defense. Self-defense gun carrying is worth taking seriously for two reasons. First, the empirical literature is unanimous in portraying defensive gun use as effective, in the sense that gun-wielding victim are less likely to be injured, lose property, or otherwise have crimes completed against them than victims who either do nothing to resist or who resist without weapons (for reviews, see Kleck 1997, chap. 5; Kleck and DeLone 1993).

Second, the literature is nearly unanimous (with a single dissenting source of survey information) in indicating that defensive gun use (DGU) is commonplace, though largely invisible to governments.(1) At least 15 surveys have yielded results implying anywhere from 760,000 to 3.6 million DGUs per year, with evidence from the first survey specifically designed to estimate DGU frequency, the National Self-Defense Survey (NSDS), indicating about 2.5 million instances of DGU per year (Kleck and Gertz 1995; for a recent confirming estimate, see Cook and Ludwig 1997:61-3).(2)



Over all?  Carrying has far more benefits than risks.