Author Topic: Forget your God!  (Read 5670 times)

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Offline Tuberload

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Forget your God!
« on: October 01, 2009, 11:51:13 PM »
Don't believe in my God? That's fine. Use this thread to tell me all the reasons why. I do my best to respect the beliefs of the community and limit discussions of faith to my own personal board. Please return the courtesy. If your only goal is discrediting and or attacking me on a personal level, I ask that you limit it to this thread. I don’t want every post I make being overran with philosophical arguments as to why I am wrong.
I am prepared to be ridiculed for what I believe, are you?

Offline Towelie

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Re: Forget your God!
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2009, 12:32:15 AM »
We are doing a huge section on religion in philosophy class right now :(

I'm not sure what my beliefs are, to be honest.

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Forget your God!
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2009, 12:59:05 AM »
Tuberload, I know you're probably just covering your bases here, but I hope you realize it is never my goal to attack you personally.  I may come off a bit coarse at times, but it is never because I disrespect you as a person; I may find your beliefs objectionable to the highest degree, but it's never my intention to do anything but argue against the existence of God (or to discredit attempts to argue for the existence of God).

I'm naturally skeptical.  I always have been.  This may find a few of you incredulous, as I used to be openly religious myself, but I blame indoctrination for that.  I was always uneasy about my beliefs, but my blindness was reinforced by my environment.  When I left home, my faith rapidly faded.

This being said, I think unconditional skepticism almost requires atheism.  There is no tangible evidence for the existence of God (to my knowledge -- feel free to prove me wrong).  I'm familiar with the usual apologetic arguments, and a few of the less common ones.  Every single one of them is terrible to the point of it being vaguely pathetic.  Because of this, I reject the notion of a God.  Unlike many theists (and atheists), I don't claim to know that God doesn't exist, because I don't think anyone has knowledge pertaining to the existence of a god.

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Forget your God!
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2009, 01:13:30 AM »
Separately, questions for you:

 * Do you believe in hell?  If so, why does God discriminate against people who are naturally skeptical?  What is the purpose of necessitating faith?
 * The reasons you believe in God seem to be entirely from personal experience.  Why do you think God doesn't offer everyone this opportunity?  I sincerely believed in God, and never had any sort of personal experience.  Does God love you more than he loves me?
 * Do you interpret every verse in the Bible literally?  Do you believe homosexuality is immoral?  Do you think that God's stamp of approval is the only way an action can be moral?

Offline Rule

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Re: Forget your God!
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2009, 04:45:05 AM »
double post
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 01:00:46 PM by Rule »

Offline Rule

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Re: Forget your God!
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2009, 06:54:11 AM »
Unlike many theists (and atheists), I don't claim to know that God doesn't exist, because I don't think anyone has knowledge pertaining to the existence of a god.

Just to make a technical point... there seems to be some confusion, in general, about what atheism is.  Generally, I think it means that you believe it is unlikely that there is a God, not that you think it is impossible.  Although I would say 'atheism' is not particularly well defined. 

I agree with your sentiments though.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 07:03:54 AM by Rule »

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Forget your God!
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2009, 10:27:18 AM »
<3 Hitchens.  He's my favoritest blasphemous heathen EVER.

Unlike many theists (and atheists), I don't claim to know that God doesn't exist, because I don't think anyone has knowledge pertaining to the existence of a god.

Just to make a technical point... there seems to be some confusion, in general, about what atheism is.  Generally, I think it means that you believe it is unlikely that there is a God, not that you think it is impossible.  Although I would say 'atheism' is not particularly well defined. 

I agree with your sentiments though.

I agree in whole, but an average religious person probably doesn't.

I tend to make my thoughts on these matters (sometimes unnecessarily) explicit so that I don't have to debate semantics.

Offline Tuberload

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Re: Forget your God!
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2009, 01:38:07 PM »
Tuberload, I know you're probably just covering your bases here, but I hope you realize it is never my goal to attack you personally.  I may come off a bit coarse at times, but it is never because I disrespect you as a person; I may find your beliefs objectionable to the highest degree, but it's never my intention to do anything but argue against the existence of God (or to discredit attempts to argue for the existence of God).

I'm naturally skeptical.  I always have been.  This may find a few of you incredulous, as I used to be openly religious myself, but I blame indoctrination for that.  I was always uneasy about my beliefs, but my blindness was reinforced by my environment.  When I left home, my faith rapidly faded.

This being said, I think unconditional skepticism almost requires atheism.  There is no tangible evidence for the existence of God (to my knowledge -- feel free to prove me wrong).  I'm familiar with the usual apologetic arguments, and a few of the less common ones.  Every single one of them is terrible to the point of it being vaguely pathetic.  Because of this, I reject the notion of a God.  Unlike many theists (and atheists), I don't claim to know that God doesn't exist, because I don't think anyone has knowledge pertaining to the existence of a god.

I appreciate this response. I hope you understand that the approaches and arguments you present are, confessedly, beyond my scope of understanding and therefore would require much effort to produce a genuinely thoughtful articulation.

As you have observed my reasons for belief are rather subjective and founded upon experience. Objective doctrinal studies, for me, have only served to keep my personal experience, which I will refer to the belief as God through the mediation of His Christ Jesus and His Spirit, within the proper boundaries as described by the Bible. I hold to the belief that if a God who created everything that is, is truly desirous of my soul, and if I am truly living within a fallen state of personal humanity, then He is more than capable of communicating to me the necessary information required to return to a restored state. I therefore approach God in a way heavily reliant upon faith. The evidence for me is found in what I believe are God’s responses to that faith. We live in a world where information is transmitted all the time between satellites and other mediums of wireless communication. All of this takes place while invisible to the natural human senses. Therefore it would seem reasonable that God, by His Spirit, can also communicate with me through a spiritual means even though it is invisible to my natural human senses. This is of course heavily reliant upon faith, but the experience is a very real one and not just some ideology. I am encountering something whether this belief is proven justifiable or not beyond that of my own personal context. The good things that have come about in my life over the last 3+ years is grounds enough for me to trust in the source of this experience, once again a statement heavily reliant upon faith but not void of evidence or substance.

I am not interested in the doctrines of men, rituals or religion void of a living God yet full of ideas and traditions. I am also not aware of the apologetic arguments, so anything I say that sounds like one just proves that my ideas are not necessarily original. I will approach all who will listen with what the word of my faith has to say for reasons previously stated. I have very few of the answers. You however give me much focus and motivation to at least attempt discovery of a few, and for that I thank you. I believe that the supernatural ministry of God’s Spirit through healings, miracles, divine insights into the human heart, etc, is still available for our time. While this may cause me to be ostracized by religious orthodoxy I would rather produce a tangible experience for a lost and hurting person than an argument for an inquisitive mind. This, of course, is once again a venture of faith, a venture in which I hope to see a realization, a venture that will be justified only if a blind mans eyes are truly opened or a lame man truly walks or perhaps by the Spirit I tell a person I have never met intimate details about his life because there truly is a God that knows everything about him. Am I a fool? Only time will tell.
I am prepared to be ridiculed for what I believe, are you?

Offline Camel

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Re: Forget your God!
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2009, 01:03:01 PM »
If you believe in God, I have no problem with that. I personally don't for, among other reasons, the ones Sidoh gave. However, if you are religious, I think you're wasting your time and, more than likely, your money. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STlYN5KCiWg.

<Camel> i said what what
<Blaze> in the butt
<Camel> you want to do it in my butt?
<Blaze> in my butt
<Camel> let's do it in the butt
<Blaze> Okay!

Offline Armin

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Re: Forget your God!
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2009, 04:08:13 AM »
Without going into too fine of detail, these are my views on...

Religion:
Western religions are collections of spiritual practices and ideologies, hijacked throughout humanity's existence by the political authorities for political purposes.

The Creator:
An all-loving, all-knowing creator may or may not be a part of the objective reality. Either way, including this creator within one's subjective reality can prove beneficial.

My Choice:
Rather than sacrificing my independence for stability by resorting to blind faith in an external (potential) being, I turn to blind faith in myself and my abilities. I embrace spiritual practices that focus on such.



As a forewarning to all who may reply, I refuse to spend time defending any of these beliefs.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 03:50:08 AM by Armin »
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Offline Joe

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Re: Forget your God!
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2009, 02:48:27 AM »
Unlike many theists (and atheists), I don't claim to know that God doesn't exist, because I don't think anyone has knowledge pertaining to the existence of a god.

Just to make a technical point... there seems to be some confusion, in general, about what atheism is.  Generally, I think it means that you believe it is unlikely that there is a God, not that you think it is impossible.  Although I would say 'atheism' is not particularly well defined. 

I agree with your sentiments though.

Atheism, I believe, is the lack of religion. Hence "theism" with the prefix "a-", meaning non. Non-religion, basically.

Agnosticism is the belief that it's impossible to prove God's existence. Although 99% of them will deny it, most Christians are agnostics by definition.
I'd personally do as Joe suggests

You might be right about that, Joe.


Offline Sidoh

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Re: Forget your God!
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2009, 03:12:10 AM »
Unlike many theists (and atheists), I don't claim to know that God doesn't exist, because I don't think anyone has knowledge pertaining to the existence of a god.

Just to make a technical point... there seems to be some confusion, in general, about what atheism is.  Generally, I think it means that you believe it is unlikely that there is a God, not that you think it is impossible.  Although I would say 'atheism' is not particularly well defined. 

I agree with your sentiments though.

Atheism, I believe, is the lack of religion. Hence "theism" with the prefix "a-", meaning non. Non-religion, basically.

Agnosticism is the belief that it's impossible to prove God's existence. Although 99% of them will deny it, most Christians are agnostics by definition.

this is a pretty objectionable definition of both atheism and agnosticism.

atheism is the rejection of the notion of a god.  it is a response to theism.

agnosticism means you don't believe god exists, but you don't claim to have knowledge of the nonexistence of a god.

agnosticism and atheism aren't mutually exclusive.

Offline Sidoh

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Re: Forget your God!
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2009, 10:50:52 AM »
Not-so-deliriously-tired edit:

Specifically, 'agnostic' can be used as a modifier for atheism.  An agnostic atheist is an atheist who does not believe a god exists, but does not claim to know this.  A gnostic atheist is one who claims knowledge.  In my opinion, all reasonable atheists are agnostic.

Of course, these definitions aren't exactly the ones used in common parlance.  However, I think they're used in more academic environments because they're more useful.

Offline Camel

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Re: Forget your God!
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2009, 01:22:13 PM »
Unlike many theists (and atheists), I don't claim to know that God doesn't exist, because I don't think anyone has knowledge pertaining to the existence of a god.

Just to make a technical point... there seems to be some confusion, in general, about what atheism is.  Generally, I think it means that you believe it is unlikely that there is a God, not that you think it is impossible.  Although I would say 'atheism' is not particularly well defined. 

I agree with your sentiments though.

Atheism, I believe, is the lack of religion. Hence "theism" with the prefix "a-", meaning non. Non-religion, basically.

Agnosticism is the belief that it's impossible to prove God's existence. Although 99% of them will deny it, most Christians are agnostics by definition.

Theism is the belief in god. It does not imply religion.

<Camel> i said what what
<Blaze> in the butt
<Camel> you want to do it in my butt?
<Blaze> in my butt
<Camel> let's do it in the butt
<Blaze> Okay!