Bin Laden down

[CrAz3D]

"Was it just part of the fog of war, with a clear account only available when those engaged in the mission are fully debriefed?"

There are soooo many people involved in this that I'd be surprised if there was only one story told. Ever play "telephone" as a kid?

[Falcon]

They're not going to release pictures, so I guess we just have to take their word for it as usual.

[Joe]

If they did a DNA test against his sister, wouldn't his brother also match? I'm no biologist but it can only check that the two specimens have the same parents, right?

Mitochondrial DNA should match.

In any case, there exists a test that would confirm his identity given we trust the identity of his sister.

I don't get it. According to the Wikipedia article on the Bin Laden family, Mohammed bin Laden had at least 54 children. Hamida al-Attas, Osama's mother only had one child with him, so he has no full siblings. Doesn't that mean that he would match his half-sister's DNA no better than their other 52 half-siblings?

[iago]

Noam Chomsky's take on the situation:
http://www.guernicamag.com/blog/2652/noam_chomsky_my_reaction_to_os/

Predictably against the usual sentiment. I love it!

[Sidoh]

Noam Chomsky's take on the situation:
http://www.guernicamag.com/blog/2652/noam_chomsky_my_reaction_to_os/

Predictably against the usual sentiment. I love it!

That's Chomsky for you.

I read this last week sometime.  I don't agree with everything he says, but the sentiment of his words is something I can uphold.

For example --
I don't know about Muslim funeral traditions, but it seems like throwing Bush's body into the ocean would be a gesture of disrespect.  I don't think that's necessarily the case with bin Laden.

[iago]

For example --
I don't know about Muslim funeral traditions, but it seems like throwing Bush's body into the ocean would be a gesture of disrespect.  I don't think that's necessarily the case with bin Laden.

That may be true, but if a foreign government came over, assassinated Bush at his house/ranch/whatever, took his body, and made their decision about what to do with his body without his family's input, that would be a Bad Thing.

[Sidoh]

For example --
I don't know about Muslim funeral traditions, but it seems like throwing Bush's body into the ocean would be a gesture of disrespect.  I don't think that's necessarily the case with bin Laden.

That may be true, but if a foreign government came over, assassinated Bush at his house/ranch/whatever, took his body, and made their decision about what to do with his body without his family's input, that would be a Bad Thing.

Bad Thing^TM?

Probably, but I don't think there would be anything like the outpour of violent threats made by bin Laden's followers.

I don't think that bin Laden and Bush are analogous in any sort of strong way.  There are too many differences to make this analogy anything other than a mildly interesting thought experiment.

[iago]

Bad Thing^TM?

Probably, but I don't think there would be anything like the outpour of violent threats made by bin Laden's followers.

I don't think that bin Laden and Bush are analogous in any sort of strong way.  There are too many differences to make this analogy anything other than a mildly interesting thought experiment.

I think there would be far, far more threats. People already say 'nuke the middle east', I can't imagine what they'd say if a middle eastern government decided to assassinate an American citizen on American soil, then dispose of the body themselves.

I agree that it's difficult to compare - most Muslim people hated OBL as much as Americans. It's because of him that people want to nuke them.

[Sidoh]

Very few of those people actually think that, and those that do could probably be convinced otherwise with a short conversation.

It's different in the case of bin Laden's followers.

There is ... a religion of peace in this world, but it's not Islam. To call Islam a religion of peace ... is completely delusional ...

The problem is not religious extremism, because extremism is not a problem if your core beliefs are truly non-violent. The problem isn't fundamentalism ... the only problem with Islamic fundamentalism are the fundamentals of Islam ...

Osama bin Laden ... is ... giving a very plausible version of the faith ...

Osama bin Laden ... is giving a truly straightforward version of Islam, and you really have to be an acrobat to figure out how he is distorting the faith.

-- Sam Harris

[deadly7]

Very few of those people actually think that, and those that do could probably be convinced otherwise with a short conversation.

You haven't met extreme bigots have you? Ask drake to chime in, seeing as to how he's in Texas. But even here in Minnesnowta I've run into plenty of them.

[Sidoh]

Very few of those people actually think that, and those that do could probably be convinced otherwise with a short conversation.

You haven't met extreme bigots have you? Ask drake to chime in, seeing as to how he's in Texas. But even here in Minnesnowta I've run into plenty of them.

Like I said, I think sense could be talked into most of them.  Violent dogma doesn't underly their operative beliefs.  They're just stupid.  And they lack the drive to do anything.

I'm not saying they aren't out there.  They are -- I'm sure of it.  I just don't think that they're commonplace.  I also think their violent tendencies stem from ignorance.  I don't think this is the case with Muslim fundamentalists.

Also, I'm criticizing the religion, not the people.  Okay, I'm criticizing the people too.  Fuck them.

[CrAz3D]

Bad Thing^TM?

Probably, but I don't think there would be anything like the outpour of violent threats made by bin Laden's followers.

I don't think that bin Laden and Bush are analogous in any sort of strong way.  There are too many differences to make this analogy anything other than a mildly interesting thought experiment.

I think there would be far, far more threats. People already say 'nuke the middle east', I can't imagine what they'd say if a middle eastern government decided to assassinate an American citizen on American soil, then dispose of the body themselves.

I agree that it's difficult to compare - most Muslim people hated OBL as much as Americans. It's because of him that people want to nuke them.

OBL isnt the leader of the Middle East, so it wouldnt look the same. It'd be more like (I'd guess) someone in the ME shooting Fred Phelps or some other nutjob fanatic. I think we'd all be OK with it.

[iago]

Bad Thing^TM?

Probably, but I don't think there would be anything like the outpour of violent threats made by bin Laden's followers.

I don't think that bin Laden and Bush are analogous in any sort of strong way.  There are too many differences to make this analogy anything other than a mildly interesting thought experiment.

I think there would be far, far more threats. People already say 'nuke the middle east', I can't imagine what they'd say if a middle eastern government decided to assassinate an American citizen on American soil, then dispose of the body themselves.

I agree that it's difficult to compare - most Muslim people hated OBL as much as Americans. It's because of him that people want to nuke them.

OBL isnt the leader of the Middle East, so it wouldnt look the same. It'd be more like (I'd guess) someone in the ME shooting Fred Phelps or some other nutjob fanatic. I think we'd all be OK with it.

I specifically said "a US citizen", not "Bush" for that reason.

But yeah, even if the Iranian government, say, sent a strikeforce into the US to assassinate Fred Phelps (or whoever), I'm sure people would be pissed. EXTREMELY pissed.

[dark_drake]

Very few of those people actually think that, and those that do could probably be convinced otherwise with a short conversation.

You haven't met extreme bigots have you? Ask drake to chime in, seeing as to how he's in Texas. But even here in Minnesnowta I've run into plenty of them.

This here's Amerikuh. If you're not a white, meat-eating Christian, you're going to make a lot of us good, honest folk uncomfortable. Also, CrAz3D lives in Texas, too. And to be fair, I'm in ultra-liberal hippie land.

[Sidoh]

Bad Thing^TM?

Probably, but I don't think there would be anything like the outpour of violent threats made by bin Laden's followers.

I don't think that bin Laden and Bush are analogous in any sort of strong way.  There are too many differences to make this analogy anything other than a mildly interesting thought experiment.

I think there would be far, far more threats. People already say 'nuke the middle east', I can't imagine what they'd say if a middle eastern government decided to assassinate an American citizen on American soil, then dispose of the body themselves.

I agree that it's difficult to compare - most Muslim people hated OBL as much as Americans. It's because of him that people want to nuke them.

OBL isnt the leader of the Middle East, so it wouldnt look the same. It'd be more like (I'd guess) someone in the ME shooting Fred Phelps or some other nutjob fanatic. I think we'd all be OK with it.

I specifically said "a US citizen", not "Bush" for that reason.

But yeah, even if the Iranian government, say, sent a strikeforce into the US to assassinate Fred Phelps (or whoever), I'm sure people would be pissed. EXTREMELY pissed.

You seriously think so?  I don't.  People would probably be creeped the fuck out, but I don't think they'd be seriously pissed.

Very few of those people actually think that, and those that do could probably be convinced otherwise with a short conversation.

You haven't met extreme bigots have you? Ask drake to chime in, seeing as to how he's in Texas. But even here in Minnesnowta I've run into plenty of them.

This here's Amerikuh. If you're not a white, meat-eating Christian, you're going to make a lot of us good, honest folk uncomfortable. Also, CrAz3D lives in Texas, too. And to be fair, I'm in ultra-liberal hippie land.

Austin is a dot of blue in a sea of red, as they say. right?