Perspectives.

[Sidoh]

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Uh. Hopefully I'm misinterpreting you when I think that you believe that anyone can kill anyone else without punishment?

Hitmen is just really fucked up. :P

He's for eating babies too.

[rabbit]

God doesn't like it when you kill people. Who's to say you won't make him mad?

Because God gave us Free Will (according to the Torah/Quran/Bible).  If God didn't want people killing each other, do you think there would be war, sociopaths, serial killers, etc...?  Please, learn the book you worship COMPLETELY before you go around saying something.

@MyndFyre:
Indirect, but still kind of on topic, but not really: Was it Locke who stated that people join society because they understand it's a better way to get power than being an individual, or was it someone else?

[d&q]

God doesn't like it when you kill people. Who's to say you won't make him mad?

Because God gave us Free Will (according to the Torah/Quran/Bible).  If God didn't want people killing each other, do you think there would be war, sociopaths, serial killers, etc...?  Please, learn the book you worship COMPLETELY before you go around saying something.

I think you're just trying to bash Joe again. Just because we have the option of killing people does not mean that we should. God said we shall not kill, steal, disobeye parents, etc. We have the ability to do those things, but Christians(and obviously others) don't. I don't see how you could possibly think that God wanted people killing each other. And for the record, many people don't COMPLETELY know about the Bible. That's one reason why we have pastors/priests; to help us understand/interpret key parts of the bible.

[MyndFyre]

@rabbit: Locke said we join society to protect our right to life and property, and mostly liberty (although we have to give up some "liberty" rights in order to enter into society).

Also @rabbit: whether the Bible says that people have free will is contested.

[rabbit]

Free Will and the Ten Commandments are almost right next to each other.  And no, I'm not bashing Joe.  The punishment for breaking a Commandment is a eternal after-existence without God (ie "hell").  God does not punish his creations for using their [lit] God given Free Will.

And please don't accuse me of things.

@Myndfyre: Calvinists are weird anyway.  Even the Mormons believe in Free Will.  Anyway, Joe isn't a Calvinist, so that particular belief structure section doesn't apply to him, and my argument still stands.

[Joe]

Here, let pastor Joe explain this to you. God is omnipotent and benevolent, meaning that he knows everything and he has your best in mind. Obviously you know that.

However, a parent is benevolent to their children. They don't want them to get hurt. HOWEVER, they will still let them ride a bike with the potential of falling over, and when they get older they can still drive with the potential of wrapping their car around a pine tree.

God's permissive will allows people to kill eachother. If everything went by God's perfect will, like Heaven does, then nobody would kill anybody because the bible says "thou shalt not kill".

Unfortunately I can't make it any simpler. *sigh*

EDIT -
Sorry for coming off as a jackass. =)

EDIT -
Also, you've got the Jewish punishment for breaking a commandment. In Christianity, there is no punishment for breaking a Bible law, asuming you repent. Being cleansed from sins is simple.

Romans 10:9-13:

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

[MyndFyre]

@ "Pastor" Joe: clicky.  :P

@rabbit: I believe that you're saying, because God *could* stop murder but doesn't, it's God's fault that there is murder.  I don't believe this is accurate.  It's the person's choice who commits murder.

Besides, you wouldn't know if God *did* prevent a murder, now would you?

[Joe]

@MyndFyre: Ouch.

[Hitmen]

There is nothing wrong with killing. Those stupid liberals are just trying to take away our rights to kill as we please.

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Uh. Hopefully I'm misinterpreting you when I think that you believe that anyone can kill anyone else without punishment?

That depends on whether or not "anyone else" is a baby and/or the flesh of the sacrificed is going to be consumed.

edit:

Hitmen is just really fucked up. :P

He's for eating babies too.

hahaha, I think sidoh wins

[rabbit]

x86] link=topic=6422.msg77464#msg77464 date=1151463090]
@rabbit: I believe that you're saying, because God *could* stop murder but doesn't, it's God's fault that there is murder.  I don't believe this is accurate.  It's the person's choice who commits murder.

Besides, you wouldn't know if God *did* prevent a murder, now would you?

My point isn't that it's God's fault murder happens, it's that a Commandment isn't the best reason to not kill someone, because Free Will and a malevolent God (punishing God, if you prefer) do not fit together.  It's still the killer's fault s/he's killed someone/many.

[MyndFyre]

x86] link=topic=6422.msg77464#msg77464 date=1151463090]
@rabbit: I believe that you're saying, because God *could* stop murder but doesn't, it's God's fault that there is murder.  I don't believe this is accurate.  It's the person's choice who commits murder.

Besides, you wouldn't know if God *did* prevent a murder, now would you?

My point isn't that it's God's fault murder happens, it's that a Commandment isn't the best reason to not kill someone, because Free Will and a malevolent God (punishing God, if you prefer) do not fit together.  It's still the killer's fault s/he's killed someone/many.

While I don't necessarily think that the Christian God is a malevolent god, I'm curious to know why you don't think free will and malevolence go together.

[rabbit]

Because if God gave Free Will to Man and then gave some rules and a definite punishment (hell) for all sinners, why would He punish the living?

[MyndFyre]

Because if God gave Free Will to Man and then gave some rules and a definite punishment (hell) for all sinners, why would He punish the living?

How is God punishing the living?

[iago]

For anybody who cares, this story is about the nature of evil and sin, and why "murder" isn't, as such, a sin:

http://gaslight.mtroyal.ca/whtpeopl.htm

I've only read the prologue so far, but this line stood out:

"[....] I believe that the misconception--it is all but universal--arises in great measure from our looking at the matter through social spectacles. We think that a man who does evil to us and to his neighbours must be very evil. So he is, from a social standpoint; but can't you realize that Evil in its essence is a lonely thing, a passion of the solitary, individual soul? Really, the average murderer, quâ murderer, is not by any means a sinner in the true sense of the word. He is simply a wild beast that we have to get rid of to save our own necks from his knife. I should class him rather with tigers than with sinners."