My question about heaven....

[nslay]

x86] link=topic=7277.msg90666#msg90666 date=1157665923]
And to iago, God can not possibly create a rock he can't lift, because his strength is infinite. There's a quote of Jesus somewhere that says if we tell a mountain to go jump in the ocean, and believe it will (faith, of course), it will. Likewise, God tells the rock to hop up in the air. Simple enough.

His power is infinite.  You just said it wasn't.  You're assuming there is a limit to one, which there isn't. 

Your logic doesn't make any sense because of exactly what iago said: "God can create a universe that's so non-deterministic that even he cannot predict the outcomes?"  You're also asuming God can create a word that he can't predict, which states that his knowledge and understanding of the Universe is limited, which isn't true.  Until you come up with a valid explanation, I don't suggest you act like you've made a breakthrough in philosophy. :p

I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe my life is predetermined, and that my choices are not my responsibility.  You have not answered my question as to why God must know, exactly, the future.  Your answer is "He is omnipotent," which is circular reason.  As to God creating a non-deterministic universe, I see no reason why he couldn't.  Why would his knowledge of a non-deterministic universe be limited?  We certainly understand that simple discrete time dynamical system above, yet we cannot predict it ... whats your point?
I don't suggest you assume any property of God, especially one that is written in a book by people who had little to no understanding of the world around them.  I suggested you watch "The Exodus Decoded" for a reason.

[Sidoh]

I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe my life is predetermined, and that my choices are not my responsibility.

I'm not forcing you to believe anything, am I?  I'm merely presenting my beliefs and the justifications behind them.

You have not answered my question as to why God must know, exactly, the future.  Your answer is "He is omnipotent," which is circular reason.  As to God creating a non-deterministic universe, I see no reason why he couldn't.  Why would his knowledge of a non-deterministic universe be limited?  We certainly understand that simple discrete time dynamical system above, yet we cannot predict it ... whats your point?
I don't suggest you assume any property of God, especially one that is written in a book by people who had little to no understanding of the world around them.

I said omniscient, but that is entailed in omnipotency in a convoluted sort of way, I suppose.  I'm not aware of a monotheistic religion that worships a deity that can be compared with God that doesn't believe their creator to follow these properties.

Hahaha, as I went to Wikipedia to make sure that the properties of God I believe are true are more objective than you're suggesting they are, the exact same argument appears:

All the great medieval philosophers developed arguments for the existence of God, [3] attempting to wrestle with the contradictions God's attributes seem to imply. For example, God's omniscience implies that he knows how free agents will choose to act. If he does know this, their apparent free will is illusory; and if he does not know it, he is not omniscient. [4] Similar difficulties follow from the proposition that God is the source of all moral obligation. If nothing would be right or wrong without God's commands, then his commands appear arbitrary. If his commands are based on fundamental principles that even he cannot change, then he is not omnipotent. [5]

I suggested you watch "The Exodus Decoded" for a reason.

I'm sorry, did I miss something?  I don't recall this recommendation...

[nslay]

I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe my life is predetermined, and that my choices are not my responsibility.

I'm not forcing you to believe anything, am I?  I'm merely presenting my beliefs and the justifications behind them.

You have not answered my question as to why God must know, exactly, the future.  Your answer is "He is omnipotent," which is circular reason.  As to God creating a non-deterministic universe, I see no reason why he couldn't.  Why would his knowledge of a non-deterministic universe be limited?  We certainly understand that simple discrete time dynamical system above, yet we cannot predict it ... whats your point?
I don't suggest you assume any property of God, especially one that is written in a book by people who had little to no understanding of the world around them.

I said omniscient, but that is entailed in omnipotency in a convoluted sort of way, I suppose.  I'm not aware of a monotheistic religion that worships a deity that can be compared with God that doesn't believe their creator to follow these properties.

Hahaha, as I went to Wikipedia to make sure that the properties of God I believe are true are more objective than you're suggesting they are, the exact same argument appears:

All the great medieval philosophers developed arguments for the existence of God, [3] attempting to wrestle with the contradictions God's attributes seem to imply. For example, God's omniscience implies that he knows how free agents will choose to act. If he does know this, their apparent free will is illusory; and if he does not know it, he is not omniscient. [4] Similar difficulties follow from the proposition that God is the source of all moral obligation. If nothing would be right or wrong without God's commands, then his commands appear arbitrary. If his commands are based on fundamental principles that even he cannot change, then he is not omnipotent. [5]

I could give a cadoodle what medieval philsophers thought. Newton thought that everything could be perfectly predicted too ... now we have many non-Newtonian sciences like Quantum Mechanics.  Now, about that question as to why God must know exactly the future?  Instead of referring me to authorities, actually reason with me.

I suggested you watch "The Exodus Decoded" for a reason.

I'm sorry, did I miss something?  I don't recall this recommendation...

Look on this forum.

[Joe]

@Sidoh: It was in a different topic, but during school hours, so unless you have college off on Thursday (or haven't started yet) you couldn't see it anyhow. :(.

@nslay: From your posts, you seem to be religious. Out of curiocity, am I right?

[Sidoh]

I could give a cadoodle what medieval philsophers thought. Newton thought that everything could be perfectly predicted too ... now we have many non-Newtonian sciences like Quantum Mechanics.  Now, about that question as to why God must know exactly the future?  Instead of referring me to authorities, actually reason with me.

Because God is, by definition, omniscient.  It's like asking why gravity has an inward acceleration.  I realize that isn't the best analogy because you can prove that gravity has an inward acceleration, but it gets the idea across.  I consider myself Christian (despite my beliefs that you have called "heresy."), which states that God is omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent, eternal, omnipresent, etc.

Remember that this is a highly religious debate (it is, after all, in the religious forum).  The presence of subjective material is invariably true here, I think.  I apologize if what I've said has seemed at all objective.

If you don't believe God to be all-knowing, do you mind explaining why?

Look on this forum.

Don't assume that I've read every topic. :P

x86] link=topic=7277.msg90734#msg90734 date=1157679734]
@Sidoh: It was in a different topic, but during school hours, so unless you have college off on Thursday (or haven't started yet) you couldn't see it anyhow. :(.

I have one class on Thursdays.  The rest of the days I have four or five.

x86] link=topic=7277.msg90734#msg90734 date=1157679734]
@nslay: From your posts, you seem to be religious. Out of curiocity, am I right?

curiosity.  I've told you that a few times... wouldn't want you to get docked off points on an English paper... :P

[Joe]

I'm in a sped English class. Sophomore work is this:

Fill in a verb from the above word bank to complete this sentence: Fred drove a car.

[Sidoh]

x86] link=topic=7277.msg90741#msg90741 date=1157681211]
I'm in a sped English class. Sophomore work is this:

Fill in a verb from the above word bank to complete this sentence: Fred drove a car.

...

[d&q]

x86] link=topic=7277.msg90741#msg90741 date=1157681211]
I'm in a sped English class. Sophomore work is this:

Fill in a verb from the above word bank to complete this sentence: Fred drove a car.

How could you possibly be proud of this?!

[nslay]

I could give a cadoodle what medieval philsophers thought. Newton thought that everything could be perfectly predicted too ... now we have many non-Newtonian sciences like Quantum Mechanics.  Now, about that question as to why God must know exactly the future?  Instead of referring me to authorities, actually reason with me.

Because God is, by definition, omniscient.  It's like asking why gravity has an inward acceleration.  I realize that isn't the best analogy because you can prove that gravity has an inward acceleration, but it gets the idea across.  I consider myself Christian (despite my beliefs that you have called "heresy."), which states that God is omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent, eternal, omnipresent, etc.

Remember that this is a highly religious debate (it is, after all, in the religious forum).  The presence of subjective material is invariably true here, I think.  I apologize if what I've said has seemed at all objective.

If you don't believe God to be all-knowing, do you mind explaining why?

No apologies needed.  I'm coming from this perspective: This world isn't predetermined => God couldn't possibly know, perfectly, the future.  I'm no physicist, but if we examine the Uncertainty Principle, we have position and momentum of an electron that cannot be perfectly determined.  If the principle holds, then no matter what precision we acquire, we still cannot determine the position and the momentum perfectly.  There is no, "proof" per ce that the world isn't predetermined, but I think that stands as evidence.  We also exhibit apparent randomness in radioactive decay, or so I've been told.  You might argue that it is due to our lack of understanding on the subatomic level.  On the other hand, if the world were predetermined and exhibited mathematical chaos, then there can be no perfect prediction made without actually progessing the system.  Sort of like the weather, you cannot predict the weather (at least with good accuracy) a month or year from now.  
You have a different perspective.  You start with a definition of God and then make a conclusion of the universe.  There is nothing wrong with that, especially if there is no proof that the universe is or is not predetermined.

As for "heresy."  Don't take it personally, I'm not criticizing your beliefs but only noting that Christianity generally holds predestination as false.

[iago]

His power is infinite.  You just said it wasn't.  You're assuming there is a limit to one, which there isn't. 

Your logic doesn't make any sense because of exactly what iago said: "God can create a universe that's so non-deterministic that even he cannot predict the outcomes?"  You're also asuming God can create a word that he can't predict, which states that his knowledge and understanding of the Universe is limited, which isn't true.  Until you come up with a valid explanation, I don't suggest you act like you've made a breakthrough in philosophy. :p

It seems to me that omnipotents is fundamentally self-contradictory.  I don't care how powerful a God is, I suspect that logic can't be broken.  Or do you think it's possible that God can both create an infinitely immovable object, and also that he can move it?

[Sidoh]

No apologies needed.  I'm coming from this perspective: This world isn't predetermined => God couldn't possibly know, perfectly, the future.  I'm no physicist, but if we examine the Uncertainty Principle, we have position and momentum of an electron that cannot be perfectly determined.  If the principle holds, then no matter what precision we acquire, we still cannot determine the position and the momentum perfectly.  There is no, "proof" per ce that the world isn't predetermined, but I think that stands as evidence.  We also exhibit apparent randomness in radioactive decay, or so I've been told.  You might argue that it is due to our lack of understanding on the subatomic level.  On the other hand, if the world were predetermined and exhibited mathematical chaos, then there can be no perfect prediction made without actually progessing the system.  Sort of like the weather, you cannot predict the weather (at least with good accuracy) a month or year from now.  
You have a different perspective.  You start with a definition of God and then make a conclusion of the universe.  There is nothing wrong with that, especially if there is no proof that the universe is or is not predetermined.

As for "heresy."  Don't take it personally, I'm not criticizing your beliefs but only noting that Christianity generally holds predestination as false.

Hehe, I'm familiar with the uncertainty principle.  I think it's (delta)x(delta)t >= h, yes?  There's also one for energy and time.  Yes, I believe that at some point, there are things that we can't determine, prove predict or explain.  It is a part of having a finite intelligence.  I would guess that you're familiar with Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem?  It states that, no matter how many things we are able to uncover, there are certain constituents of the explanation that must be simply assumed as true.  This isn't directly related to our discussion, but it does powerfully represent the limit of our intelligence and ability to comprehend, even though that is already obvious.

It seems to me that omnipotents is fundamentally self-contradictory.  I don't care how powerful a God is, I suspect that logic can't be broken.  Or do you think it's possible that God can both create an infinitely immovable object, and also that he can move it?

Omnipotency does present several logical fallacies, I agree.  Since logic is supposed to be the representation of truth, I don't think it can be broken either.  However, perhaps there is some unforseen portion of logic that we haven't discovered or are uncapable of discovering.

[Joe]

x86] link=topic=7277.msg90741#msg90741 date=1157681211]
I'm in a sped English class. Sophomore work is this:

Fill in a verb from the above word bank to complete this sentence: Fred drove a car.

How could you possibly be proud of this?!

I never said I was proud. I said spelling curiosity wrong wouldn't get me marked down. :P

[d&q]

I mean, why would you let yourself be placed in a special english class? I know you're smarter than that.

[Joe]

I mean, why would you let yourself be placed in a special english class? I know you're smarter than that.

If I confronted my teacher saying that, he'd respond with something like "You proved the exact opposite by failing last year." I know I'm smarter than that too, but as you can see from my grammar here, whatever we're going to learn in Composition I'm already competent in, and whatever we'll learn in Literacy will bore me, so I'd rather stay with the easy crap than the boring and less easy crap. :)

[Rule]

x86] link=topic=7277.msg90877#msg90877 date=1157843538]
but as you can see from my grammar here, whatever we're going to learn in Composition I'm already competent in, and whatever we'll learn in Literacy will bore me

Pretty smug attitude considering things... it's not going to get you anywhere.