My Beliefs..

[Sidoh]

The way that I have grown up and the community the I live in. I have never seen much focus on what happens after death. When I've inquired to my temple's clergy as well as a few others, I have been told that there isn't quite the beating that you'll go to heaven or hell in Judaism as there is in Christianity. Good deeds are a commandment and considered to be a blessing. They are not considered as being the deciding factor of what one does after death (if one does anything.) Bad deeds, or sins, are repented for every year come Rosh Hashannah, Yom Kippur, and the event on Rosh Hashannah in which we symbolically cast away our sins. We will not be condemned to hell.

I didn't say you would be condemned to hell, but any ordinary Christian would.

If you believe in the inexistence of heaven or hell, what's the point of behaving during life?  Why not run about having wild sex and drinking booze until you need a liver transplant?  If there's no threat of retribution, what is the point of obeying supressive laws (other then the natural consequences of the terrible examples I gave)?

[Miamiandy]

There is a sort of threat of retribution. During the high holidays Jews repent their sins in order to be "inscribed in the book of life for a safe and happy year. It is said that if you are not inscribed in the book of life, well i think you can figure that part out...
Good deeds are called Mitzvot which directly translates into commandments. Jews aren't just supposed to do good deeds because they feel like it. They are also supposed to to it since they are commanded to do so. That is where some of the morals come from.

[Sidoh]

There is a sort of threat of retribution. During the high holidays Jews repent their sins in order to be "inscribed in the book of life for a safe and happy year. It is said that if you are not inscribed in the book of life, well i think you can figure that part out...
Good deeds are called Mitzvot which directly translates into commandments. Jews aren't just supposed to do good deeds because they feel like it. They are also supposed to to it since they are commanded to do so. That is where some of the morals come from.

If you're not inscribed in the book of life, then you go to hell?  I thought you said you didn't believe in hell, though.

[dark_drake]

If you believe in the inexistence of heaven or hell, what's the point of behaving during life?  Why not run about having wild sex and drinking booze until you need a liver transplant?  If there's no threat of retribution, what is the point of obeying supressive laws (other then the natural consequences of the terrible examples I gave)?

Hrmmm... same reason a child obeys his parents when he's a little kid who doesn't understand the concept of heaven and hell?

[Sidoh]

Hrmmm... same reason a child obeys his parents when he's a little kid who doesn't understand the concept of heaven and hell?

You completely missed the point.  A child obeys his parents because he fears them.  He expects punishment if he does something wrong and he hopes for reward if he does something extraordinary.  There is the ever-existing concept of retribution and reward.

Having premarital sex isn't against any sort of law in the united states (assuming it's... normal sex: no one's underage, it's consensual, etc), but it's explicitly stated in the bible that it is sinful and therefore against the laws mandated by God.  If there is no threat of punishment for screwing your girlfriend in highschool, why should anyone remove themself from the pleasure of it?

[dark_drake]

You completely missed the point.  A child obeys his parents because he fears them.  He expects punishment if he does something wrong and he hopes for reward if he does something extraordinary.  There is the ever-existing concept of retribution and reward.

I hardly missed the point.  You asked why people obey suppressive laws if they don't believe in heaven and hell, I answered.  They are afraid of society's punishments. Just like that child, a person expects to be punished if he does something wrong. 

Having premarital sex isn't against any sort of law in the united states (assuming it's... normal sex: no one's underage, it's consensual, etc), but it's explicitly stated in the bible that it is sinful and therefore against the laws mandated by God.  If there is no threat of punishment for screwing your girlfriend in highschool, why should anyone remove themself from the pleasure of it?

If there were no chance of STD's, pregnancy, being shot by a disgruntled parent, etc., and there was no belief in God's laws by either party, and they both agreed to have sex, they're going to have sex. What they believe to be an imaginary entity isn't exactly going to stop them.

[Sidoh]

By the way, andrew: why is believing in heaven or hell such a stretch after you've already adopted the belief that God exists?  I presume you believe he created the universe as well?  Why shouldn't he be able to create metaphysical, eternal existences such as heaven and hell?  Just because it's comforting for a person to believe that there is life after death doesn't automatically mean that it's fictitious.  It's comforting to think that we didn't evolve from sludge (some would say), that we're a "special" species, that we have souls and a greater good exists too, but does that mean that all of these things should be automatically rejected as possible realities?

I hardly missed the point.  You asked why people obey suppressive laws if they don't believe in heaven and hell, I answered.  They are afraid of society's punishments. Just like that child, a person expects to be punished if he does something wrong. 

No, you still missed the point.  There are obviously laws that are mandated by more than religion, but there are ones that are specific to religion.  You stated something everyone is aware of.  You took advantage of the situation by giving an obvious answer to a question to which it had no relation to.  I asked the questions I did for (what I hope to be) an obvious reason: to point out that laws illegalizing physically and mentally (but not spiritually) harmless actions without the belief of an ultimate punishment or reward for them is stupid when you expect that all humanity should be obeying them.

If there were no chance of STD's, pregnancy, being shot by a disgruntled parent, etc., and there was no belief in God's laws by either party, and they both agreed to have sex, they're going to have sex. What they believe to be an imaginary entity isn't exactly going to stop them.

Are you intending to dodge the entire point of this argument by making obvious, unrelated statements?

As I've already made quite clear, my point is: why would God test our faith by outlawing things like premarital sex, masturbation and lust without promise of punishment or reward for breaking or following the laws?  Miamiandrew or whatever his name is said that he believes God exists, but he doesn't believe in Heaven or Hell.

I am not saying the laws of the old testament are fallable; I'm saying there's little point following particular laws if there is no reward for following them or punishment for not.

[Miamiandy]

By the way, andrew: why is believing in heaven or hell such a stretch after you've already adopted the belief that God exists?  I presume you believe he created the universe as well?  Why shouldn't he be able to create metaphysical, eternal existences such as heaven and hell?  Just because it's comforting for a person to believe that there is life after death doesn't automatically mean that it's fictitious.  It's comforting to think that we didn't evolve from sludge (some would say), that we're a "special" species, that we have souls and a greater good exists too, but does that mean that all of these things should be automatically rejected as possible realities?

I didn't say it was a stetch, I just said I didn't. I do believe in God. I belive he created the universe although not in the seven days like the bible. It is my interpretation that maybe each "day" was really a longer duration of time.

The day someone from the dead comes back and tells us how it is. Then I will believe any particular point of view is true. Until then, I will remain doubtful as to whether anything happens after death. The idea of heaven and hell, the happy fields of plenty, or reincarnation were probably created as a way of keeping people nice and moral.

[Sidoh]

The idea of heaven and hell, the happy fields of plenty, or reincarnation were probably created as a way of keeping people nice and moral.

So was God.

[Miamiandy]

True. The unique thing about debating beliefs is that there is no right and wrong.

[Sidoh]

True. The unique thing about debating beliefs is that there is no right and wrong.

But it's fun to poke at inconsistencies.  It seems terribly arbitrary to believe in one aspect of faith but not believe in another because it's convinient to invent!

[Miamiandy]

My issue with belief is that I love science and logic. And religion and science don't go well together. I think The Torah, Jewish name for the old testement, is full of stories that some of which are supposed to be taken for the moral lessons they invoke not literally. For instance, the story of Adam and Eve might not of happened in reality, but it teaches a valuable lesson. The bible sort proves that Adam and Eve weren't the only humans on Earth becahse of the other people that Cain or Abel (which ever one didn't get killed by the other) encountered. They show the 2 divisions of humanity are descended from the split at that point.

edit: realized a mistake

[dark_drake]

No, you still missed the point.  There are obviously laws that are mandated by more than religion, but there are ones that are specific to religion.  You stated something everyone is aware of.  You took advantage of the situation by giving an obvious answer to a question to which it had no relation to.  I asked the questions I did for (what I hope to be) an obvious reason: to point out that laws illegalizing physically and mentally (but not spiritually) harmless actions without the belief of an ultimate punishment or reward for them is stupid when you expect that all humanity should be obeying them.

You asked a question, I answered. Don't go on a rant saying I missed the point just because you didn't get the answer you wanted.

As I've already made quite clear, my point is: why would God test our faith by outlawing things like premarital sex, masturbation and lust without promise of punishment or reward for breaking or following the laws?  Miamiandrew or whatever his name is said that he believes God exists, but he doesn't believe in Heaven or Hell.

I am not saying the laws of the old testament are fallable; I'm saying there's little point following particular laws if there is no reward for following them or punishment for not.

Why would God test the faith of people if he already knows what's going to happen? All I'm saying is that I believe people follow the laws these days more based on society's system of punishments more than they do based on what God will do.  God is benevolent, so theoretically he'll forgive us.  Society, though, will punish us.  Sex, masturbation, and lust are usually rewards in themselves (not all prostitutes can possibly hate their jobs  ). You might think there's no punishment from society for doing those actions, but people look at others that do those sorts of things differently. 

[Sidoh]

You asked a question, I answered. Don't go on a rant saying I missed the point just because you didn't get the answer you wanted.

I asked the question for a reason; I hope that you're able to see that.  Giving answers that don't relate at all to the purpose of the question doesn't accomplish anything.

Why would God test the faith of people if he already knows what's going to happen? All I'm saying is that I believe people follow the laws these days more based on society's system of punishments more than they do based on what God will do.  God is benevolent, so theoretically he'll forgive us.  Society, though, will punish us.  Sex, masturbation, and lust are usually rewards in themselves (not all prostitutes can possibly hate their jobs  ). You might think there's no punishment from society for doing those actions, but people look at others that do those sorts of things differently.

Because testing faith (among an infinity of other minute details) is necessary to arive at the destiny God has created.  People are capable of weighing life-changing decisions on ancedotal conclusions, minute details and ignored concepts.  If you think about how easily it would be to "alter destiny" by introducing seemingly negligible realities, you see why these sorts of things might exist.  Perhaps Alexander the Great falls in love before beginning his conquest and decides to not even begin.  Maybe Albert Einstein decides to take a walk one day, trips, falls and becomes mentally impared.  You get the idea.

Ruined reputation is definitely a form of punishment, but you seem to forget that apathy battles against it quite well.  If a business man cheats on his wife and a co-worker finds out about it, the man may not care what his coleague thinks of him.  Sure, there's the threat of blackmail, but there are also other situations that don't carry this potential risk.  Go to Japan.

[Joe]

My issue with belief is that I love science and logic. And religion and science don't go well together. I think The Torah, Jewish name for the old testement, is full of stories that some of which are supposed to be taken for the moral lessons they invoke not literally. For instance, the story of Adam and Eve might not of happened in reality, but it teaches a valuable lesson. The bible sort proves that Adam and Eve weren't the only humans on Earth becahse of the other people that Cain or Abel (which ever one didn't get killed by the other) encountered. They show the 2 divisions of humanity are descended from the split at that point.

edit: realized a mistake

Cain and Abel were Adam and Eve's sons, IIRC. God made Adam and from Adam he made Eve, so there were two humans. They both sinned, and gave birth in their fallen state to Cain and Abel who were also sinful in nature. So at the time of the fall, I believe that Adam and Eve were the only humans.