3 blacks break in, beat kid, 2 shot dead, 3rd black charged w/murder. Race card

[CrAz3D]

3 black guys broke into a house and "brutally beat" a guy's step son (this 19y/o kid was beat with a bat to the point that he has brain damage and can no longer feed himself).  The home owner shot 2 of the black guys dead, the 3rd managed to get away and is now charged with murder.  Under CA law if you commit a crime and it is foreseeable that the homeowner respond with fatal force it is your problem and you get tagged with murder.  Here in NM if a homicide occurs during a felony you get pegged with murder no matter what.

So the black guy is charged with murder, sounds OK, right?  Not according to the NAACP.  They're claiming racism.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071116/ap_on_re_us/break_in_murder;_ylt=AmiEfCAydx9PzXhiqpI6Rz1H2ocA


The black guy SHOULD get the murder, robbery, burglary, and assault with a deadly weapon.  Hell, tack on any charges you can come up with (trespassing, failure to use a turn signal, whatever).  Lock him away, preferably execute him ... whatever.
The NAACP is becoming racist in their own right

[Blaze]

That law shouldn't be invoked here, I think.  In the article they use another example of when a police officer attempted to arrest someone and accidentally hit another person with the car and killed them; I believe THAT is when this law should be used.  It's not the black guys fault his friends died directly.  I agree with the charges of: burglary, and assault with a deadly weapon.

[CrAz3D]

Since I don't know the specific wording of the law, I can only rely on what a neutral lawyer said "they have to show that it was reasonably foreseeable that the criminal enterprise could trigger a fatal response from the homeowner"
...homeowner = the black guy should hang

[iago]

Under CA law if you commit a crime and it is foreseeable that the homeowner respond with fatal force it is your problem and you get tagged with murder.

That doesn't even make sense. By what you posted, if I break into the house belonging to a survival nut with a collection of guns, that's sufficient to be charged for murder? I think you're missing something there..

[CrAz3D]

That's the law, I didn't come up with it.

In NM if you commit a felony that results in a death you get charged with murder, felony murder rule.

[Blaze]

That's the law, I didn't come up with it.

In NM if you commit a felony that results in a death you get charged with murder, felony murder rule.

The point is it might be law, but it's almost never used unless there's public demand for it.  I'm sure the families of the dead don't want this man to be charged with their murder.

[CrAz3D]

I bet the family that were the victims would like him charged with murder

[iago]

That's the law, I didn't come up with it.

In NM if you commit a felony that results in a death you get charged with murder, felony murder rule.

You didn't say anything about it resulting in a death.

I bet the family that were the victims would like him charged with murder

That would be a completely irrelevant charge, since he didn't commit murder. If the families of the people they were robbing actually want that, then they're totally being unreasonable. He should be punished for what he did, yes, but not for what he didn't do.

[CrAz3D]

That's the law, I didn't come up with it.

In NM if you commit a felony that results in a death you get charged with murder, felony murder rule.

You didn't say anything about it resulting in a death.

I said "fatal force was foreseeable," that implies death is foreseeable

I bet the family that were the victims would like him charged with murder

That would be a completely irrelevant charge, since he didn't commit murder. If the families of the people they were robbing actually want that, then they're totally being unreasonable. He should be punished for what he did, yes, but not for what he didn't do.

http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?selected=741&bold=||||
What is reasonable is that a death is probable (not possible, PROBABLE) ... that's why we have the felony murder rule

[iago]

I said "fatal force was foreseeable," that implies death is foreseeable

Are you saying that somebody could be charged for murder when nobody dies? There's a difference between something being foreseeable and that thing actually happening.

[CrAz3D]

I said "fatal force was foreseeable," that implies death is foreseeable

Are you saying that somebody could be charged for murder when nobody dies? There's a difference between something being foreseeable and that thing actually happening.

The law just provides that if someone dies and it is foreseeable you're (a dude committing the crime) is up for the charge of murder.

You're getting off topic.

[zorm]

Man did you hear about the guy in Texas? He dialed 911 because people were burglarizing his neighbors house and told the 911 operator he was going to kill them. He apparently left the phone on and went outside and fire a warning shot and told them to freeze. Three shotgun blasts later and there were two dead buglars!

Talk about awesome!

[Killer360]

Fuck the NAACP.

[CrAz3D]

Man did you hear about the guy in Texas? He dialed 911 because people were burglarizing his neighbors house and told the 911 operator he was going to kill them. He apparently left the phone on and went outside and fire a warning shot and told them to freeze. Three shotgun blasts later and there were two dead buglars!

Talk about awesome!

That's the way to do it!  Just call 911 to tell them to send an ambulance/coroner cause you're about to kill some guys breaking into your house!  Rock oN!

[Blaze]

Man did you hear about the guy in Texas? He dialed 911 because people were burglarizing his neighbors house and told the 911 operator he was going to kill them. He apparently left the phone on and went outside and fire a warning shot and told them to freeze. Three shotgun blasts later and there were two dead buglars!

Talk about awesome!

That's the way to do it! Just call 911 to tell them to send an ambulance/coroner cause you're about to kill some guys breaking into your house! Rock oN!

You people have no value for life, do you?

[iago]

You people have no value for life, do you?

That's exactly what I was thinking. Personally, I value every life, and assume that every person has some good in them. Nobody deserves to die.

The problem is, when people start taking the opposite stance (like many Americans do, it seems), you'd expect the murder rate to rise. That seems to logically follow, to me, and it becomes a self-reinforcing cycle. Welcome to life.

[CrAz3D]

I dont value life that beat my son into a huge disability...I dont value life that tries to steal my crap and hurt me.
God is supposed to be the forgiving one, not me.

[iago]

That's too bad. Me, I humanize people.

And incidentally, you still believe that there's an all-good God that caused this to happen? (An omnipotent/omniscient God who created the world would know exactly how it would unfold and could control everything that would happen)

[CrAz3D]

I "humanize" people.  I see that they're making a choice that threatens me and I make the logical choice to protect myself.

God gave us free will, what we do is our doing.

[Sidoh]

God gave us free will, what we do is our doing.

Isn't it bad to implicitly answer one of the biggest philosophical questions ever as an argument in your debate?

Plus, I'm under the impression that believing in God implies that free will can't exist.

[CrAz3D]

God gave us free will, what we do is our doing.

Isn't it bad to implicitly answer one of the biggest philosophical questions ever as an argument in your debate?

Plus, I'm under the impression that believing in God implies that free will can't exist.

You're under the wrong impression if you, in general, believe in the Christian God.

It's all about free will.  You choose to accept Christ as the Savior.  You choose to do good or do bad.
http://www.biblelife.org/election.htm#7

[Sidoh]

You're under the wrong impression if you, in general, believe in the Christian God.

It's all about free will.  You choose to accept Christ as the Savior.  You choose to do good or do bad.
http://www.biblelife.org/election.htm#7

I don't.  That's not what I'm getting at, though.  My statement was meant to be much more broad.  I'm under the impression that if you believe in any God who is supposed to be omniscient, it is impossible for free will to exist.  I don't care what the religious texts say.

I'm aware of a few counter arguments to this, but they all seem irrational and hacked together so that the religion doesn't fall apart, like always.

[CrAz3D]

Just because God knows what is happening and what will happen doesn't necessarily mean it won't be your choice.

If I throw my dog's ball near the door I know he'll run into the door in a bit, but that was his choice.

[iago]

Just because God knows what is happening and what will happen doesn't necessarily mean it won't be your choice.

If I throw my dog's ball near the door I know he'll run into the door in a bit, but that was his choice.

God is omnipotent, God created the universe. Therefore, everything that happens was what he intended.

[Sidoh]

Just because God knows what is happening and what will happen doesn't necessarily mean it won't be your choice.

If I throw my dog's ball near the door I know he'll run into the door in a bit, but that was his choice.

Choice is an illusion if the outcome is already known.

That's a bad analogy.  You're not omniscient and you don't know that.  You strongly suspect it based on past experiences.  If you were omniscient, you'd know exactly where the ball will hit and exactly when your dog will go after it.

[Warrior]

I'd fucking shoot every last one of them.

[Joe]

And incidentally, you still believe that there's an all-good God that caused this to happen?

God is generally a character of "Hehe.. that guys doing something dumb and I'll just watch." He's permissive in that kind of way -- he knows it's happening, but unless you ask Him to make it stop, He won't.

[Warrior]

You should just stop while you're ahead.

[iago]

And incidentally, you still believe that there's an all-good God that caused this to happen?

God is generally a character of "Hehe.. that guys doing something dumb and I'll just watch." He's permissive in that kind of way -- he knows it's happening, but unless you ask Him to make it stop, He won't.

Like I said, when he created the universe, he knew exactly what the outcome would be. Omniscient is like that.