Interviewing with Microsoft...

[iago]

I think I pretty much said the same thing in the first sentence.  If you're just going to be a code monkey, then strong algorithmic skills probably aren't that important.  If you're working on something like compilers, operating systems, data mining, parallel programming, pattern analysis, anything mathy, etc, your algorithmic skills and familiarity with data structures is going to make or break the interview.

And I agree, but at the same time the majority of developers probably aren't working on those, at least, not right off the bat (and by 'operating systems', I'm assuming you mean the deep kernel stuff, not, say, the shutdown menu).

I call BS on the "simple algorithm" statement.  Naive algorithms are often disgustingly worse than cleverer solutions.  This is true even in obscure problems that probably haven't manifested themselves enough to be written about.  If you're working with small samples, then it clearly doesn't matter.  However, when you're working with huge datasets (and there are plenty of jobs where this is the case), it's obvious that implementing naive algorithm after naive algorithm is going to produce a really crappy, slow product.

And I call shenanigans on you!

In all my years of programming, I've never had to write a "clever algorithm", except for schoolwork. I'm not saying that you never use them, for example in the cases you mentioned at the top, but those definitely aren't the norm anywhere. Another place they're useful is in a GIS solution (since I'm working with one of those at the moment, it's ont he top of my mind). But yeah, certainly not common in general.

Also, in terms of making a crappy/slow product, their interviewing obviously isn't working

This is an aside, but: I enjoy finding algorithms for tough problems much more than implementing solutions.

Nerd!

[Sidoh]

And I call shenanigans on you!

In all my years of programming, I've never had to write a "clever algorithm", except for schoolwork. I'm not saying that you never use them, for example in the cases you mentioned at the top, but those definitely aren't the norm anywhere. Another place they're useful is in a GIS solution (since I'm working with one of those at the moment, it's ont he top of my mind). But yeah, certainly not common in general.

Also, in terms of making a crappy/slow product, their interviewing obviously isn't working

I guess I should clarify -- In ALL of the jobs I'm interested in working, algorithmic/problem solving skills will be critical.

Honestly, I think there are far more jobs where making use of clever algorithms is hugely beneficial or necessary than you're saying.

Nerd!

Code monkeying is boring.  Seriously.

@warz: in case you miss it, I had a question for you on the previous page

[warz]

I think I'll probably apply to Microsoft when they start accepting applications for summer interns (again).  The aforementioned friend who's interviewing this weekend is trying for an internship too, but apparently they accept applications in the fall and in the spring.  I already have three applications into other places (NASA, DoD, Lockheed Martin), and I think I'll probably apply to Google when they open up applications.

What's your reason for being interested in Microsoft, warz?  I mean I've definitely heard great things, but is there something specific that really attracts you to a job there?  I'm still kind of deciding where I want to work this summer  (and I'm by no means assuming I'll be accepted to all the places I apply, lol).

Well, aside from the fact that it's Microsoft, it's probably a more enthusiastic environment because the software you could potentially be working on has the chance to be used by millions of people. Their office is also much closer to where I live, so it'd make commuting a whole lot shorter. Microsoft was also the first place I was in contact with, but I was too late for their first round of application turn-ins. Yeah, they accept applications in the fall and spring, and probably any other time if you match an open position. Besides, Microsoft is one of those career companies if you want it to be. Would I rather work at Google? Ofcourse, their office setup and stuff sounds like a blast but they're impossible to get ahold of. I've sent in several resumes, and have applied to multiple positions over time. I've never received a response about any of them. If I was finished with college I'd probably be applying mainly to gaming companies on the west coast, because I think I'd just enjoy going to work too much.

I know several people that work at Lockheed Martin, actually. They say they enjoy it, but most of the stuff they work on they can't talk about. haha.

[Sidoh]

I think I'll probably apply to Microsoft when they start accepting applications for summer interns (again).  The aforementioned friend who's interviewing this weekend is trying for an internship too, but apparently they accept applications in the fall and in the spring.  I already have three applications into other places (NASA, DoD, Lockheed Martin), and I think I'll probably apply to Google when they open up applications.

What's your reason for being interested in Microsoft, warz?  I mean I've definitely heard great things, but is there something specific that really attracts you to a job there?  I'm still kind of deciding where I want to work this summer  (and I'm by no means assuming I'll be accepted to all the places I apply, lol).

Well, aside from the fact that it's Microsoft, it's probably a more enthusiastic environment because the software you could potentially be working on has the chance to be used by millions of people. Their office is also much closer to where I live, so it'd make commuting a whole lot shorter. Microsoft was also the first place I was in contact with, but I was too late for their first round of application turn-ins. Yeah, they accept applications in the fall and spring, and probably any other time if you match an open position. Besides, Microsoft is one of those career companies if you want it to be. Would I rather work at Google? Ofcourse, their office setup and stuff sounds like a blast but they're impossible to get ahold of. I've sent in several resumes, and have applied to multiple positions over time. I've never received a response about any of them. If I was finished with college I'd probably be applying mainly to gaming companies on the west coast, because I think I'd just enjoy going to work too much.

Ah, cool.  Yeah, those are the answers I kind of expected.  They're definitely awesome reasons -- reasons I'd want to work there as well.  I'm not sure what the deal is with Google.  I've met several people who graduated from here who now work for them.  I'm not sure if it's a matter of getting to know someone in the office where the job you're applying for is or something, but I don't know.  They said they get over 1000 applications for internships a year or something.  It was a little disheartening, lol.

lol, gaming companies would be pretty cool.  I would imagine working on something like WoW would be really fun for a lot of the same reasons you mentioned you'd like to work at MS.

I know several people that work at Lockheed Martin, actually. They say they enjoy it, but most of the stuff they work on they can't talk about. haha.

I worked at LM last summer.  It was pretty awesome.  The office I worked at was really small (200ish people), though, and all of their projects involved logistics, which I didn't find especially interesting (although there were some really cool approaches to some of the hard problems they were faced with).  The one I put as my "first choice" is here in Colorado and is much bigger and I think is involved with what I'd consider more interesting projects.  All my work was "unclassified", but I definitely put my signature at the end of a long NDA, lol.  I think most people who work there get security clearances at some point; it's just not so useful for them to get them for interns (I think they cost the government in excess of $30,000 or something?).  The job I applied for at the DoD requires a security clearance, though, lol.

[Skywing]

I think I'll probably apply to Microsoft when they start accepting applications for summer interns (again).  The aforementioned friend who's interviewing this weekend is trying for an internship too, but apparently they accept applications in the fall and in the spring.  I already have three applications into other places (NASA, DoD, Lockheed Martin), and I think I'll probably apply to Google when they open up applications.

What's your reason for being interested in Microsoft, warz?  I mean I've definitely heard great things, but is there something specific that really attracts you to a job there?  I'm still kind of deciding where I want to work this summer  (and I'm by no means assuming I'll be accepted to all the places I apply, lol).

Well, aside from the fact that it's Microsoft, it's probably a more enthusiastic environment because the software you could potentially be working on has the chance to be used by millions of people. Their office is also much closer to where I live, so it'd make commuting a whole lot shorter. Microsoft was also the first place I was in contact with, but I was too late for their first round of application turn-ins. Yeah, they accept applications in the fall and spring, and probably any other time if you match an open position. Besides, Microsoft is one of those career companies if you want it to be. Would I rather work at Google? Ofcourse, their office setup and stuff sounds like a blast but they're impossible to get ahold of. I've sent in several resumes, and have applied to multiple positions over time. I've never received a response about any of them. If I was finished with college I'd probably be applying mainly to gaming companies on the west coast, because I think I'd just enjoy going to work too much.

Ah, cool.  Yeah, those are the answers I kind of expected.  They're definitely awesome reasons -- reasons I'd want to work there as well.  I'm not sure what the deal is with Google.  I've met several people who graduated from here who now work for them.  I'm not sure if it's a matter of getting to know someone in the office where the job you're applying for is or something, but I don't know.  They said they get over 1000 applications for internships a year or something.  It was a little disheartening, lol.

lol, gaming companies would be pretty cool.  I would imagine working on something like WoW would be really fun for a lot of the same reasons you mentioned you'd like to work at MS.

I know several people that work at Lockheed Martin, actually. They say they enjoy it, but most of the stuff they work on they can't talk about. haha.

I worked at LM last summer.  It was pretty awesome.  The office I worked at was really small (200ish people), though, and all of their projects involved logistics, which I didn't find especially interesting (although there were some really cool approaches to some of the hard problems they were faced with).  The one I put as my "first choice" is here in Colorado and is much bigger and I think is involved with what I'd consider more interesting projects.  All my work was "unclassified", but I definitely put my signature at the end of a long NDA, lol.  I think most people who work there get security clearances at some point; it's just not so useful for them to get them for interns (I think they cost the government in excess of $30,000 or something?).  The job I applied for at the DoD requires a security clearance, though, lol.

I'd be careful with those; some of the employee agreements out there in the world are pretty nasty, to the effect of claiming ownership of any ideas you come up with both inside or outside of work.

[Sidoh]

I'd be careful with those; some of the employee agreements out there in the world are pretty nasty, to the effect of claiming ownership of any ideas you come up with both inside or outside of work.

Heh, definitely.  I'm pretty sure theirs is pretty nasty, but when talking to people, it sounded like it was only to allow them to "cover all their bases".  Regardless, that was definitely one of the things that made me very uncomfortable about working there.  I like owning my ideas.

It was just an internship, though, so now my ideas are mine again!

[warz]

Nortel had me sign something like that - they own any ideas I come up with at work. lol.

[iago]

I'd be careful with those; some of the employee agreements out there in the world are pretty nasty, to the effect of claiming ownership of any ideas you come up with both inside or outside of work.

Symantec was like that, that's one of the main reasons I left.

My current job (Government of Manitoba) didn't require any kind of IP agreement, or even an NDA. All I had to sign was a conflict of interest thing.

(I think an NDA is implied by the nature of my work, though, but it's not official)

[Skywing]

I'd be careful with those; some of the employee agreements out there in the world are pretty nasty, to the effect of claiming ownership of any ideas you come up with both inside or outside of work.

Heh, definitely.  I'm pretty sure theirs is pretty nasty, but when talking to people, it sounded like it was only to allow them to "cover all their bases".  Regardless, that was definitely one of the things that made me very uncomfortable about working there.  I like owning my ideas.

It was just an internship, though, so now my ideas are mine again!

I was more meaning Lockheed Martin and other companies that do defense-related work.

[Sidoh]

I'd be careful with those; some of the employee agreements out there in the world are pretty nasty, to the effect of claiming ownership of any ideas you come up with both inside or outside of work.

Heh, definitely.  I'm pretty sure theirs is pretty nasty, but when talking to people, it sounded like it was only to allow them to "cover all their bases".  Regardless, that was definitely one of the things that made me very uncomfortable about working there.  I like owning my ideas.

It was just an internship, though, so now my ideas are mine again!

I was more meaning Lockheed Martin and other companies that do defense-related work.

Heh, yeah.

Not that this makes it any more excusable, but I was working in an IRAD department, so the NDA is really the only way they can protect "trade secrets".  People working on contracts typically have security clearances, which I'm sure have all other kinds of obligations of secrecy.

[Sidoh]

I guess my friend got an offer.  Man, they pay well.  $5,400/month for an internship?  Damn.

[warz]

That's nice. It's less than what I make at Nortel, though. =( I should also note that taxes suck.

[Sidoh]

That's nice. It's less than what I make at Nortel, though. =( I should also note that taxes suck.

It's a summer internship and she has no work experience, lol

[warz]

That's nice. It's less than what I make at Nortel, though. =( I should also note that taxes suck.

It's a summer internship and she has no work experience, lol

You may be surprised then to learn that that is the average pay for these kinds of jobs. I haven't talked to an employee of a non internet startup programming company that makes less than this average. It's a tough job if you think about it. You're constantly doing critical thinking, problem solving, working with teams constantly... you're never done. You're staring at a monitor all day, and have the humming of computers making you go insane subconciously. They're not going to find anyone willing to do this after all the schooling for much less. These companies know that, too, and they've got no problem paying the price.

[MyndFyre]

Guess it depends where you are....  We pay our interns ~$12/hr.