My question about heaven....

[Sidoh]

So everything you've ever done that was wrong, every sin was because God wanted you to?

Yes.

God wants people to go to hell, so he decides that they're going to die by killing themselves, right?

Yes.

God decides that he doesn't like Jewish people, so he wanted Hitler to go ahead and exterminate them?  I refuse to believe that.

"Everything happens for a reason."  Perhaps it was in order to "influence" (I use the word lightly since I'm on the side of the argument that doesn't believe in free will) people to destroy Hitler.  It isn't necessary that it happened because God doesn't like Jewish people.

How can you believe that this being created the universe... every detail, every atom, every law that governs reactions and every person, yet he has a complete lack of control over our sentience?

[Rule]

How can you believe that this being created the universe... every detail, every atom, every law that governs reactions and every person, yet he has a complete lack of control over our sentience?

He may have power over us, but supposedly we are allowed to make our own choices, as though we are a conscious entity with free will.  Believing in determinism precludes taking most popular religions seriously, unless you interpret them in a very unorthodox way.  I am sure that any official position on this topic from the Catholic or Anglican church would include a demand that humans have free will.

[Sidoh]

I'm aware of the state of this argument in most religious environments, but as Einstein said: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."  Science is an elaborate form of logic, wouldn't you say?

I am not saying (and refuse to say) that I believe with no doubt that free will is nonexistent, but I do find the argument interesting and take the chance to argue against it when I get the chance.  People find it frightening that they aren't in control of their own life.

[Joe]

God isn't powerful enough to know?  I think that's silly to believe. :P

Why did God tell Adam not to eat of the tree if He knew Adam would? Why did he test Abraham if He knew Abraham would obey?

When God asked Abraham to sacrafice Isaac, I doubt it was for God's own good, but to show Abraham more about Abraham himself and how much he fears God. As for the tree, I dunno, but for other kinds of tests..

EDIT -
People also say that the Holocaust was God's vengeance on the Jews for something they did a mega-long time ago. I can't remember what that was, though.

[d&q]

I think somewhere along the line the difference between deciding and knowing was slightly blurred.

[dark_drake]

God wants people to go to hell, so he decides that they're going to die by killing themselves, right?

Yes.

God decides that he doesn't like Jewish people, so he wanted Hitler to go ahead and exterminate them?  I refuse to believe that.

"Everything happens for a reason."  Perhaps it was in order to "influence" (I use the word lightly since I'm on the side of the argument that doesn't believe in free will) people to destroy Hitler.  It isn't necessary that it happened because God doesn't like Jewish people.

But He's benevolent?

How can you believe that this being created the universe... every detail, every atom, every law that governs reactions and every person, yet he has a complete lack of control over our sentience?

God created man in His image.  God, I'm assuming, has free will, and I assume that it's one of the traits that He put into man. You could just as easily say he withheld that privelege, but neither statements are provable.  :-\

[Joe]

In my opinion the reason why humanity fell was because God gave us free will, and the choice to fall or not. Adam just made the wrong choice.

I fail to realize why God would create humanity, make it sin, and kill Himself to redeem us.

[Sidoh]

But He's benevolent?

How do you purpose that it's possible for us to see the ultimate effect of each catastrophy?  Perhaps more good resulted in its doing than would have if it hadn't happened. 

God created man in His image.  God, I'm assuming, has free will, and I assume that it's one of the traits that He put into man. You could just as easily say he withheld that privelege, but neither statements are provable.  :-\

That seems very much like a falacy.  If God created us in his image (proven by similar traits we share), we wouldn't have sin.

x86] link=topic=7277.msg91281#msg91281 date=1158100883]
In my opinion the reason why humanity fell was because God gave us free will, and the choice to fall or not. Adam just made the wrong choice.

You believe that it was impossible for God to determine that Adam would choose to sin or that the possibility was even there?  Do you think that God was playing dice when he created this world: that he created Adam knowing that he "might" sin but might not?  You think it was beyond God's capabilities to foresee what Adam would choose?

There's a Bible passage that says something to the effect of "I've known you since before you were born."  How could this be possible if God wasn't able to detect the future?

x86] link=topic=7277.msg91281#msg91281 date=1158100883]
I fail to realize why God would create humanity, make it sin, and kill Himself to redeem us.

I think you mean "fail to understand."  He's God.  There are far more mysterious things you could choose to attach that phrase to.

[Joe]

@First quote:

I don't think God was unable to detect what Adam was doing, nor do I think God couldn't toss on the mind control cap and make Adam do whatever God wanted, but I do believe that God gave Adam the choice to sin or not. Sure, God knew what Adam was going to choose, but the choice was in Adam's hands, not God's. So I suppose I'm saying something along the lines of God's permissive will vs God's perfect will. In God's perfect will, He would have caused Adam not to sin, but His permissive will allowed Adam to do whatever he wanted.

@Second quote:
Yeah, I guess understand would work better, but I still stick by what I meant there.

EDIT -
Added more proper nouns to make it more obvious what I was saying.

[Sidoh]

x86] link=topic=7277.msg91303#msg91303 date=1158110535]
I don't think God was unable to detect what Adam was doing, nor do I think God couldn't toss on the mind control cap and make Adam do whatever God wanted, but I do believe that God gave Adam the choice to sin or not. Sure, God knew what Adam was going to choose, but the choice was in Adam's hands, not God's. So I suppose I'm saying something along the lines of God's permissive will vs God's perfect will. In God's perfect will, He would have caused Adam not to sin, but His permissive will allowed Adam to do whatever he wanted.

If God knew Adam's decision, don't you think he created him with those intentions?  That would prove what I've been trying to pound through your skull for the last few pages of posts... omniscience implies the existence of destiny.

x86] link=topic=7277.msg91303#msg91303 date=1158110535]
Yeah, I guess understand would work better, but I still stick by what I meant there.

Here are some examples, then:

Why did God make the Universe in six days?  Why didn't he choose six milliseconds?  Why did he even create it at all?

Why did God make it necessary to kill his son in order to redeem our sins?

There are countless examples such as these that don't necessarily have a comprehensive "reason" that can be percieved by our finite minds.

[Joe]

Let me put that question (why did God make it so Jesus had to die) a bit closer to you. You have a son who's.. say.. 3. Defenseless. Zorm brings his robot over to your house. Are you going to aim it at your son and hit the "kill" button? I doubt God would either.

[Joe]

Also, look at Mark 14:35-36. Jesus prayed that if it were possible God wouldn't have him die. However, he said that he wanted to see God's will, not His own. The will of the father, not the will of Jesus. Seperate wills. Jesus said he wanted to give up his free will in order to let the will of God take place, meaning he had his own (free) will in the first place.

[Sidoh]

x86] link=topic=7277.msg91362#msg91362 date=1158125414]
Let me put that question (why did God make it so Jesus had to die) a bit closer to you. You have a son who's.. say.. 3. Defenseless. Zorm brings his robot over to your house. Are you going to aim it at your son and hit the "kill" button? I doubt God would either.

A son to God is much different than a son to man.  I don't think that you can argue that...

x86] link=topic=7277.msg91363#msg91363 date=1158125589]
Also, look at Mark 14:35-36. Jesus prayed that if it were possible God wouldn't have him die. However, he said that he wanted to see God's will, not His own. The will of the father, not the will of Jesus. Seperate wills. Jesus said he wanted to give up his free will in order to let the will of God take place, meaning he had his own (free) will in the first place.

God is not man.  Jesus is not man.  You're comparing deities to man.  It doesn't make any sense -- especially in this debate.