PayPal dispute - what should I do?

[warz]

So, I've been playing WoW with 2 accounts over the past year or so. I wasn't double boxing, but for a period of about 2 months I paid for an extra account so me and a friend could do RAF. The account ended up with a level 80 Paladin, and a 74 Hunter on it.

So, on Sunday I sold the account to somebody that I just randomly contacted through craigstlist. I made sure he gave me the money first, and I immedietly withdrew it from paypal. Today, I found out that he opened a dispute claiming the transaction was not authorized and that he was unaware of the transaction. The money is already in my bank account. Paypal stuck me with a -390$ balance. They're investigating the dispute and have asked me to deposit the money or refund it to him while they investigate.

I looked on wowarmory and it looks as if the account got into the hands of gold farmers, because the paladin is completely stripped except for his teir gear that cant be vendored. The hunter seems to have been deleted.

Think I should just keep the money? I don't quite know what to expect paypal to do. I have a feeling they'll side with the gold farmers because I doubt this is their first time stealing accounts and I think they probably know what to expect from PayPal as far as disputes go. I don't want the account back, either - that's why I sold it to begin with.

The guys paypal was not a confirmed address. It apparantly belongs to some mexican living in the Houston area, using a PO box. I wonder what I should do. The fact that it appears to be some type of gold farmer, though, makes me think that if I just refuse to refund him via paypal then I don't think he'd take it to civil court.

[dark_drake]

Have you tried explaining the situation to Paypal?

[warz]

Yea its all through their dispute center which doesn't feel very reassuring. I called the too. We will see how it turns out I guess

[Nate]

It is entirely possible that you both got ripped off.  Someone may have gotten hold of his Paypal info and used it to pay you.  It work in a similar fashion to money laundering.  If they had transfered the money to themselves, he would have disputed, and got his money back.  Instead they use his account, buy your WoW char, and strip it.  Pretty genius actually.

[iago]

Dunno about genius, but it's pretty common -- use somebody else's paypal account then take off. :)

My first guess is that you both got ripped off.

[Nate]

The description you give of the man is also pretty telling, a man from Mexico, living in Houston using Paypal with an unconfirmed address, it would suggest that he is most likely an illegal immigrant, his grasp of English would be acceptable to get by, but by no means a mastery, he would be using Paypal because he lacks the documents needed to apply for a legitimate bank account, and needs a form of electronic debt to pay a certain bill, normally a cell phone.

He probably got a phishing e-mail and fell for it, entered his info on some very sketchy site, or saved his log-in info to a computer in an internet cafe on accident.

[Rule]

I used PayPal extensively in 2000-2002, but I haven't dealt with it since then.  Although it may have changed, my experience is that it is a terrible corporation, with absolutely no regard for clients.  It doesn't seem to matter who's at fault, they just do what will be the least hassle to them in the short term -- and sometimes that means stealing your money, and then ignoring you.  From what I remember, their dispute process is a joke.  It's basically a cover for them to buy time while they do whatever they feel like.

Of course, I sold some D2 items, which was allowed.  I've never played WoW, but I gather what you're doing isn't.... so I'm not sure.  My instinct would be to keep the money though, and hold onto it until the issue is "resolved", rather than have paypal "hold" (steal) it for you.  You're really lucky that you got the money out before Paypal's grubby hands grabbed it away.

Then again, if you want to avoid any hassle yourself, you could put the money back in.  Just never expect to see it again, because you won't.

In the "real" world, if someone steals a credit card (for example), and then buys some expensive suits at the mall, the store at the mall does not lose that money without having the suits returned -- the credit card company has to cover the loss, if it can't be recovered from the thief.  In the paypal world, the store would lose the suits and the money, because it's easier for paypal to steal money from their own users in order to placate a big company, than to do things honestly. I probably lost $5000 in this way, over a couple months.

[iago]

In the "real" world, if someone steals a credit card (for example), and then buys some expensive suits at the mall, the store at the mall does not lose that money without having the suits returned -- the credit card company has to cover the loss, if it can't be recovered from the thief. 

Are you sure about that?

The person at my organization that does our PCI work says the opposite -- unless they can produce a receipt with a matching signature on it, the store is liable for a stolen card. The credit card companies argue that without a valid signature, it isn't their problem.

I haven't confirmed that from another source, although I couldn't see him making up that kind of thing.

[warz]

Well, it's turning out to look like this person claims he was the victim of ID fraud. I'd believe it if I didn't know that my WoW account was completely stripped - I'm going to keep the money until somebody other than paypal makes me return it. Because, like Rule mentioned, I too know that PayPal's policies towards things like this are a joke. They always seem to let the person doing the actual scamming get away from the money and the items. You'd think they'd realize that the scammers know this and abuse paypal because of paypals policies that they follow. You could argue that paypal is the perfect tool to use if you're wanting to scam somebody online.

The Hunter was deleted. They vendored every single item on both the Hunter and Paladin that they could and had all of the gold in the mailbox of a level 1 human female warrior that they created. (All my prior experiences buying gold from farmers, they've used level 1 human female warrior characters with random lettered names - which this one was) So, it does look like the account was in the hands of a gold farmer. I reclaimed the account because I was curious. If the dispute ends in my favor I'll give him the account back. Otherwise I'm taking it back. Either way, though, I'm keeping the money until somebody other than paypal makes me return it.

Also! I was in email contact with this person - they've responded saying they were the victim of id theft and that they've contacted the authorities. It was an odd email. He made no attempt at being professional about it at all. He first responded with a very abrupt "what is warcraft, i dont even have AIM" email. Then about 10 minutes later responded with a longer email trying to explain that he had contacted the police already. He used a lot of internet slang and words like "aint". Personally, I think the person emailing me is the same person that planned to steal the account.

[Blaze]

On the plus side, you can get Blizzard to restore your account and sell it again.  :) (If you can prove you're the original account owner.  You'll need to fax / email id.  The account will also be closed temporarily as they investigate.)

But yeah, unless you actually ship something, or have some sort of proof you delivered on your end (shipment tracked), you're going to be shit out of luck.  Don't deposit anything into the paypal account for now.

I'd recommend instead of doing an online login info exchange, you ship the wow box/cd with account information.  Scammers will not even bother with this, not to mention it's really hard to dispute that the didn't get anything if the shipment was tracked.  Not to mention this also helps you (but not guarentees you) that this person isn't in asia somewhere.

Keep in mind, there's no 100% way to sell an account that doesn't belong to you, and not run a risk of being scammed.


Oh, and my mage is for sale, if anyone wants a Ulduar ready mage for a decent (It's relative) price. ($200ish.)

[Camel]

iago's right. Stores that accept plastic are required to verify your signature against the one on the back of the card. If the strip is damaged or the signature doesn't match, they're liable for any fraud that may occur.

[Newby]

On the plus side, you can get Blizzard to restore your account and sell it again.  :) (If you can prove you're the original account owner.  You'll need to fax / email id.  The account will also be closed temporarily as they investigate.)

If it's my account... he's not the actual owner. I do remember seeing e-mails about a password recovery in my inbox around this time... would the owner in this case be defined as the person paying for the account (warz) or the person that created the account (me)?

If they stripped my warlock, I'LL KILL YOU!

(kidding. I'm done with warcrack.)

[warz]

no, it's not your account. your warlock is safe and untouched since wotlk came out. :-P

blizz still hasn't responded to my emails about my character being deleted, along with all my gear. =(